Tuesday, October 28, 2008

OPEN DISCUSSION- You Pick The Topic








Feel free to discuss whatever is on your mind. You pick the topic.

Please, no anonymous posting. Anonymous posts will be rejected. It makes it too hard to respond to people. Please pick a name and stay with it.

268 comments:

1 – 200 of 268   Newer›   Newest»
Zappa said...

I am still curious about the whole Pennmommy/Possummomma mystery. I have been reading http://berlzebub.blogspot.com and http://calladus.blogspot.com/ since this site and GWOP have been quiet on the topic. I am still a tad confused and undecided on what the truth really is although I suspect there has been some lying on all sides. What do you think?

Road2Madness said...

I find the whole PennMommy/PossumMomma saga to be very entertaining. I have this feeling we will not know the "truth" for a long time to come. There are too many fingers pointing and anger among PM's friends, supporters, haters, etc. POssumMomma was damn good at what she did. I do not buy PennMommy hacking into PossumMomma's computer and using her identity. I do not buy it at all. I find it very amusing that this game is still being carried on by PossumMomma's friends defending her. Very fascinating, indeed.

To be honest, prayers and good thoughts lost on PennMommy are not something to dwell on. It was done and over with. ALl i know what it did for me was GWOP and Julie losing some credibility in my eyes. Enough said.

Jamie said...

I emailed one of the owners at the "other" site (and never got a response of course) asking why their mission statement says they are trying to "help" these kids but when you read comments its nothing but hate. I also asked about the comments in general like how they say "All viewpoints regarding the Gosselin family are welcome, but if your comment is nothing more than a diatribe about the sanity of the other people posting here or any variation thereof, it will probably just go into a black hole." They must have forgot to add that if your here just to spew hate towards the kids and parents then you are welcome to say whatever you want. AND "Same with quoting Scriptures -- not everyone here is a Christian or even believes in the Christian deity." They had a whole mess of scriptures mocking what Kate has said.

Another thing I have been wondering is how the people over there know they get EVERYTHING for free. Im sure that even if Jon or Kate had the cameras pointed directly at their wallets pulling out money handing it to a cashier people would say TLC gave them that money right before that shot.(or something like that)

I honestly read the "other" site purely for comedic value. 200+ comments on the "baseball game" within 24 hours of nothing but concocting stories and spewing hate from the same 10 people is kinda pathetic yet amusing at the same time. The things they come up with are insane and must require hours and hours of concentrated hate along with nothing else to fill their day/night with. I would also like to thank them for spreading the word about this show and watching it every week with us.

Nina Bell said...

Hello Zappa,

Are you related to moon? I can imagine you still are Curious. Not sure about the comment you made about "lying on all sides". Are we one of the sides you feel are lying and if so what specifically do you think we are lying about?

Zappa said...

Wow. I am more than a little shocked by the accusatory nature of your comment Nina Bell. I thought I had found a site that allowed for mature discussions, which is why I posted here in the first place.

I am not related to BohemianMoon and I am not the commenter named "Curious". I have never posted on either site I listed in my original comment but I have been reading over there as I already stated.

As for my comment, no, I do not think that this site is intentionally lying. I feel that GDNNOP believes their evidence that pennmommy and possummomma are the same person is solid, even if I am not totally convinced. I think there is more to the story and I accept that I may never know the whole truth. I only wanted to start a discussion in place where I thought mature discussions were allowed and even welcomed.

Perhaps I was wrong and if that is the case I will continue to lurk and refrain from posting in the future.

Mom said...

I have not posted on the sites Zappa above has mentioned, but I have been following them.

I also know that no other mods here are Curious, Intrigued or Tiredofthebs. I have my suspicions about who Curious is, but that's neither here nor there.

The person on the ABC blog did alot of research it seems. I don't know why people are all saying you can't see all the cached pages of the PennMommy site, because I just pulled up one today.

I think alot of people (on several blogs) are disgruntled over this whole thing. I, for one, was "gone off" on by a few posters on PennMommy's blog and Shrew blog. Mainly because I either didn't have an opinion on something specific, or had a different opinion than someone else. I'm not a malicious poster. I welcome discussion and others' opinions.

Anyone who has read the blogs Zappa mentions will find talk about Secret Message Boards, etc. And, from the blog owner's reply to those comments, it seems some people may have pulled some quotes from that board.

Well, ladies and gents, no one over here belong to any Secret Message Board, so there are obviously some folks associated with that board posting over there, too.

On the Shrew blog I was "discredited" because I associate myself with the people here at GDNNOP. However, the Shew blog owner, stated that she knew possummomma etc. Now, of course, those posts are gone. Funny, isn't it? That could make one believe that Possummomma was communicating with others on different boards. The copy from the Shrew site was cut/pasted on the ABC thread by Leeza on October 8th, if you want to read it.

And, if people are going to discredit me for the people I "run with," then I think it's more than fair to say "back atcha!"

What in the world would anyone here at GDNNOP be lying about? We don't claim to know G insiders. We are also not on a "witch hunt." We aren't members of any Secret Message Board.

When the PennMommy stuff was reported, information was presented and the readers could make their own decisions. The same could be said about the blogs defending her.

Ultimately, what bothers me the most, is that if something is said over and over again, it becomes "truth."

Case in point, bananabethanna talked specifically about the Gs not accepting items from their church when the tups were born. I find that many people continue to bring that up when they speak of the Gs now. Now, it seems bananabethanna's identity is being questioned?

Put a fork in me. I'm done.

Nina Bell said...

Zappa

LOL I was referring to Moon Zappa, Frank Zappa's daughter. So sorry. But yes I was asking if you were Curious because you said you were still curious and then posted the URL's to the sites.

I did not say you said we were lying, I was only asking if you were referring to us when you said lying on all sides. How many sides are there? I stated I was not sure what you meant.

This is the internet so it is hard to understand where someone is coming from and what they mean.

I apologize if I offended you. I really truly am sorry. I meant no harm and Moon was the furthest thing from my mind. I also welcome discussion on this because we would like the truth to come out.



Nina

merryway said...

Does anyone think that Beezlebub is Pennmommy? The writing is similar and the twisty explanations that just go on and on. Have I missed this somewhere as proven/mis-proven?

Mom,
Banana posted on GWOP as an insider, was questioned and disappeared. Atheist in a MiniVan/PM posted that she had SEEN Banana. She said Banana had been approached by someone from J&K and was going to stop posting. Geography plays in this as Possumm is in CA.
That's right and tight isn't it?

merryway said...

bananabethanna plugged atheist's blog in a lot of places. Crafty self-promotion.

indianprincess said...

I've been lurking over two those sites since this whole mess started with Pennmommy. It's like they are going around in circles over there. First it was give me proof and the IP addresses don't count and then now they are asking for IP addresses. It's quite interesting with some of the information coming out is a little crazy.

MommyZinger said...

Whoever Curious is over at Berlzebub's, she's kicking their as$es.

I'm fascinated by the PM thing and I keep reading about it because it is like a crime or puzzle that needs (or I need) to be solved. I, myself, need the closure but at the same time I'm kind of getting tired of it.

I'm also tired of reading/talking about GWOP.

So....what is everyone's kids dressing up as for Halloween? Or what do you think the G kids will be for Halloween? Do they even celebrate Halloween?

merryway said...

Mom,
I'm sorry, I read your post wrong. I was trying to ask if my summation was correct.
Anyone else?

Nina Bell said...

Mommyzinger

We are actually going to do the Halloween costume as our next off topic post!

BEE said...

Just curious if Julie has made any appearances as of late. It seems that when the whole PennMommy thing blew up, Julie just disappeared as well.

FIONA said...

I honestly read the "other" site purely for comedic value. 200+ comments on the "baseball game" within 24 hours of nothing but concocting stories and spewing hate from the same 10 people is kinda pathetic yet amusing at the same time. The things they come up with are insane and must require hours and hours of concentrated hate along with nothing else to fill their day/night with. I would also like to thank them for spreading the word about this show and watching it every week with us.

October 22, 2008 7:52 AM

---
Funny how they don't see themselves as a HATE site!

HBIC8u said...

lol Nina. Zappa, I was thought she was talking about BMoon, too. Lord, don't get me started on that one.

From what I have been able to gather from various message boards involved, I think the only one lying is PossumMomma. I guess there is always an "if" in blog world, we may never know for sure. I also think it's funny that people like moon and looney's wife feel the need to jump on that side just to avoid having to admit they were wrong. I would venture to guess that neither of them really think the pm drama is true, but if they keep acting like there is a chance it might be, they don't have to acknowledge that they've been had. LOL It's actually kind of funny. Taking the side of the person who duped you to avoid having to "eat crow" is pretty damn childish, imo.

FIONA said...

Hello Zappa,

Are you related to moon? I can imagine you still are Curious. Not sure about the comment you made about "lying on all sides". Are we one of the sides you feel are lying and if so what specifically do you think we are lying about?

October 22, 2008 8:03 AM

----
Funny how people get their panties in a wad sooo easily. I think Nina just asked a simple question. It wasn't accusatory at all. Simmer down.

merryway said...

I just read over there and am satisfied that they're one and the same. The explanations are like wading through muck to get nowhere. She went down with the ship for sure.
Even after reading, I'm still not sure I have the banana story straight. Possum was supposed to be her neighbor in CA and brought her meals while Banana's husband had cancer? All of the writing is so emotional it makes me tired.
So many puppets.
I had forgotten that the shrew blog had said she new PennMommy.
It's fascinating, but so many names and twists that it hard to keep it all straight.

FIONA said...

Does everyone remember how William posted on Moon's site that I, Fiona was emailing his "Mother" calling hospitals, and sending her all these terrible comments under the names of other people.

Remember how many of you believed that??? Well, now why would you believe that now when we know it was one big hoax. Or, is Bohemian Moon apart of it as that is where William was allowed to post?

I have no respect for Moon. She is as bad as all the rest of the haters.

And Julie, well Julie knew PM right? And Gwop met Julie, right? Maybe not folks...maybe not.

indianprincess said...

I think Shrew knew Possummomma not PennMommy. I just came from over there to read the latest information. I heard a lot of valid points and it's a lot to think about. I think fingers are being pointed at the wrong people just to take the heat off the real people involved..IMO

Anonymous said...

mom, i believe the post you are talking abut at Shrew's blog about her knowing possummomma, was not actually her. A blogger by the name of David posted it as a comment and the mod then made it a post as she thought it was important for all to read. IMO, I believe that the mod probably took down that post after coming to the same conclusion that most of us have and no longer believes what this "david" said

i could be wrong with all of this. But this is what I remember and feel free to correct me if wrong.

Zappa said...

Nina, Oh good, thank you for clearing that up. Written communication is difficult to interpret sometimes. I was really hoping I hadn't misjudged this community.

HBIC8u, If PossumMomma is the only one lying then I almost feel sorry for Calladus and Berlzebub for being so thoroughly duped. Unless of course, they are in on it and lying too.

Fiona, My panties are all smoothed out now! lol :)

HBIC8u said...

zappa said...
HBIC8u, If PossumMomma is the only one lying then I almost feel sorry for Calladus and Berlzebub for being so thoroughly duped. Unless of course, they are in on it and lying too.


I don't know that I believe that berlzebub and calladus are in on it. I think that in this situation, Possummomma was probably honest about a lot of the things in her blog. Most of it was opinion and it must have resinated with the athiest community, just as Pennmommy's stories resinated with the anti Gosselin community. When someone seems to think the way you do, it tends to build security, even online. I think that's why so many hesitated to even doubt Pennmommy at first, and now I think the same thing is happening to possummomma's followers. I have to say that I can't know without a shadow of doubt that I'm right about all of this, but I guess I've just looked at what has been presented on both sides and obviously one side is more convincing than the other. I have looked a little deeper and the things that I found support the findings here. I'm not just going on what this blog has given me.

merryway said...

Fiono, And Julie, well Julie knew PM right? And Gwop met Julie, right? Maybe not folks...maybe not.

Julie vouched for her, but said she hadn't met her.

Mom, ... Now, it seems bananabethanna's identity is being questioned?

Mom, the first time I read this, it seemed like amazement at fact. The second time I read it, it seemed like an actual question. Sorry if I asked wrong.

MonicaW42 said...

I am starting to think the whole penn/possum is not going to go away for awhile. I really think they were one and the same person. And with the possum person getting so many handouts and now has been caught in a web of deceit, I think they realize they screwed up and the money train is drying up. Of course they will have their defenders in their little atheist blogs that will defend them. I just think its sick that those websites have attacked GDNNOP for possum going into hiding. They went into hiding, IMO, because the gig is up. Of course they will be back with a new guise in the future. That is usually how it works. If the truth didn't hurt so much those blogs wouldn't be attacking on a daily basis as I pretty much hadn't seen penn/possum mentioned here for a bit now. Plus the whole thing just stunk of lies. I suggest in the future that penn/possum keep an excel sheet to keep track of the lies. I'm only speaking on this because the atheist blogs are not letting it go. Possum stated Pennmomm lied and abused her trust and had ruined things for her. Now its being said that Pennmomm stretched the truth on some things. Then we had "she hosted Jason's picture as a good deed for a family member" then it became " they used her computer and put the pic up without her knowing it". WTFever. Just give it up already and let it go and die. If I never hear or see anything on the Pmomm thing again it will be too soon for me.
Now on to something totally different, does anyone know of any good scrapbooking or beading blogs?

Mom said...

anon 1122

I remember the David post. It clearly said "David" in the actual post, like "my name is David...." or something similar.

No, I'm pretty certain that the blog owner posted that she knew her and that same post is the one that appears now on the abcblog. The post wasn't up too long. In fact, someone posing as Julie was also posting too. After that, things started disappearing.

intrigued said...

There is only one thing that still gives me pause about Possummomma/Penn Mommy, and that is the dates of the appendicitis attacks. As give, Possummomma's daughter had her surgery first - the 24th. Penn Mommy's son was sick before that (about a week, the 17th). I don't think Possummomma is psychic, and some of her online friends have met her family, so I don't know if she'd spin a yarn about her daughter being ill. But she had a long absence from her blog before that - six days. I don't know much about appendicitis. How long between diagnosis and surgery? I also don't know much about Blogger, and whether one can alter dates or times of posts after the fact. Something is fishy here, and under the weight of so much else - same locations, the picture, the convoluted story about how Penn Mommy stole Possum's ID, their writing styles, their overwhelming concern with reality TV families, their love of insider info (JHawksgirl had been posting on TWoP about how her friend helped the Duggars at Disneyland and gave her the scoop), the mysterious Bethanna who only shows up to pimp Possummomma's blog and talk about how she knows the Gosselins - I'm convinced both Momma, Mommy, William, and Bethanna are they're all the same, but I just can't understand this one part.

I keep going back to the writing. That other ABC blog poster from the stamper website clearly has a grudge, but there's a whole trove of Possummomma material there (as Scarlett75) to compare with Penn Mommy et. al. How many people do you know who spell refrigerator "refridgerator"? Who use the word "heiny" (and spell it that way? I've seen heinie and hiney before, but not heiny)? Who spell dunno with an apostrophe at the end? Who do all three when their alleged sockpuppets also do all three?

tintin said...

This is gonna be long, but this clinched it for me that pennmommy/possummomma are the same person. Comments on the blog about Munchausen's By Internet on abc news:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/health_insider/2008/10/death-and-decep.html

This is the writing analysis of none so blind. I've found the same things. I've taken chunks out, so feel free to head over there and read this and more..

"There are quite a lot of coincidences to be believed if Possummomma, Penn Mommy, Penn Mommy's son "William," and Gosselin and Possummomma blog commenter "bananabethanna"/”mrsbananabethanna" are separate people. I'll address one: writing style.

Based on their blogs and their comments, Possummomma, Penn Mommy, her son William, and Bethanna all have remarkably similar writing styles and quirks. In general, they all use CAPITALS for EMPHASIS, especially when they're MAD. They comment on others' words by bolding one of their opponent's sentences, then writing their comments below...and they do this extensively and condescendingly. They all like adding hyphens to words or splitting words that should be one into two; they all have trouble knowing how to correctly use possessives (someones for someone's, the Gosselin's for the Gosselins'). They all use apostrophes at the ends of words in place of accents, or even where they make no sense—Pele', manana', vacay' (that last one is from P-Momma's daughter's Christmas essay. Maybe mom "corrected" her daughter's work?). They all start sentences with "But," and do this a lot, too (including Possummomma's daughter). They all like the cliché, "the (blank)—it burns!" Both Possummomma and Bethanna often use freakin' and flippin'. Possummomma and Penn Mommy name specific logical fallacies.

More specifically, both Possummomma and Penn Mommy use re-evaluate instead of reevaluate. Both Possummomma and William often use alot instead of a lot, and have both repeatedly spelled occurred as occured. Possummomma and Bethanna almost exclusively use everytime instead of the correct every time. Possummomma and William have both used perogative instead of prerogative and judgement for judgment. Possummomma and Penn Mommy both use the distinctive inside-and-out instead of inside and out. Both Possummomma and William have used "soul purpose" when they mean "sole purpose."


Put that in the context of additional behavior – what I can actually verify through my own searches, not what people have told me or what I think is likely. Possummomma experiences near-constant drama and victimization by people whose identity only she can confirm and whose only online existence is in connection to her.

If you want to believe that this is all one huge series of coincidences and that Possummomma and her relatives and neighbor all had the same English teacher (in addition to all the same online interests, complete absence from accessible online records, knowledge of each others’ usernames, and access to each others' passwords), and that Possummomma’s mysterious relative had some sort of impulse to use her cousin as a fall guy for all of this—feel free. Just know that the case looks different to someone outside her community of online friends (and neither pro- or anti-Gosselin) who isn't swayed by the appeal to emotion.

You can use Google Reader to look up the sources in question as of yesterday (possummomma.blogspot.com; pennmommyfortruth.blogspot.com; willsjonah.blogspot.com). Most of this is no longer cached, hence no links. Atheist in a mini van’s and Bethanna/Mrsbananabethanna's comments can be easily Googled on Gosselinswithoutpity.blogspot.com. Copy and paste into Word and start comparing for yourself."

Road2Madness said...

From the Calladus' latest blog post, do you find the following comment strange?

So. Now is your chance to send me anything you believe to be incriminating or exonerating. Maybe I can describe what happened in a way that is provable and that makes sense. Maybe not. But unless I try, I won't know for sure.

Ummm....why should Calladus describe or prove what happened? Pretty odd if you ask me. Let either PossumMomma or PennMommy woman up rather than go in the hiding and depending on others to offer explanations. This is so fascinating...like a huge puzzle that are waiting to be solved! I really believe more people are involved in this saga and PossumMomma may have had help with this game. ;)

scarfoot said...

I'm surprised I haven't seen any mention of the Gosselin's new book on this website. Has anyone else read it? I read it, and it was OK. I didn't realize it was going to be mostly about the pregnancy/first few years. Some things I noticed were that Kate mentions her mother (and sisters) a LOT. It appears that Kate's mom was involved quite a bit during her pregnancy. I also noticed that Kate did address a few issues such as her behavior with helpers, the home remodel, and her relationship with Hannah.

There were a few times in the book that I felt Kate confirmed some of the uglier rumors about herself (confirmed through her own admission of her behavior) but overall I felt that it just reaffirmed that the Gosselins had a very hard time going through that experience and are doing better today.

(The book does not address their current status with family, finances, or anything else people wonder about.)

Anya said...

Road2Madness said "Ummm....why should Calladus describe or prove what happened? Pretty odd if you ask me. Let either PossumMomma or PennMommy woman up rather than go in the hiding and depending on others to offer explanations."

Good point. However, we have the same situation in the Gosselin blogging world with Julie/Jodi wherein Julie insists on being the spokeswoman (aka tattletale) for her sister.

I am not suggesting the relationships are the same between the parties. Just thought this was interesting.

Daisy said...

I just spent WAY too much time reading up on PM & Pmommy. Intrigued, I think you're on to something.

Mom said...

Scarfoot -

Thanks for posting your insight on the book. I'm sure Nina will come up with something on it. I haven't gotten it yet to read, but am interested in reading it. Would you be interested in writing a little piece on it? If so, let us know! :-)

Anne said...

Jamie
I read the other site as well as this site to say the site is only "hate" on the kids is very innacurate. There are many post of all different kinds. IMO I find it is manily against Jon and Kate and their greed. What is often said to me here (on this site when I post) is if you dont like the show, dont watch it. I find this funny as if I didnt watch and then posted my comments and I would be told I dont watch it and have no authrity to comment on it. I find one of the biggest difference's between the 2 sites is this one has many post about the other site. The barley mention this site..IMO

Anya said...

I re-read Jamie's post and she said "hate towards the kids and the parents." It's really hard for one to deny with a straight face that the site is not full of hate and anger. I don't think most posters are saying that the *majority* of it is directed at the kids. (Well, they do have one target). Most of the venom is directed at the parents, you are correct. Still doesn't make it a place I want to spend any of my free time. I generally try and shy away from complete negativity when I can.

True, the other site doesn't really mention us. They take the high road, right? Kind of the way they dealt with the Penn Mommy mess.

SamanthaNC said...

TinTin-

Very thorough, and if how could even the doubters need more proof?

Anne-
Why in the world would gwop mention this site? This site does not promote their hateful agenda, (and by agenda I am not referring to "child advocacy") so why would they risk accidentally sending someone over here?

Tired in NJ said...

Tintin: There are people on this blog that routinely bold and highlight other people's comments and then pick them apart line by line too.

BEE said...

scarfoot, I too read the book and am surprised that there hasn't been much mention of it on different blogs.

I really enjoyed reading it. I enjoyed reading the stories about the things that Kate's mom did for her, like scrub down the hospital room before Kate was admitted because she knew how germaphobic Kate was (only a mom would do that!) or how when they had the Christmas Eve misscarriage scare that her mom gave her a handful of index cards with uplifting scripture on them. I kind of made me sad to think that Kate and her mom are not in each others daily lives.

What I really thought was interesting was how Kate mentioned her mom and all her siblings in very personal passages and yet only referred to her father in a very generic fashion, ie "my parents" etc.

It will be interesting to see if they do another book in a few years, perhaps when the show is over.

BEE said...

Was just watching the old episode where Beth and Kate go shopping at Ikea.

It made me think of all the controversary over Beth and Jodi no longer being on the show.

Could Beth or Jodi fight TLC or the Gosselins to get paid for episodes that they were previously in? Do the Gosselins get paid for reruns or only for the initial episode.

Not sure if anyone knows the answers to these questions....just curious.

Linda said...

scarfoot -

Can you elaborate a little bit more on what the book says about Kate's relationship with Hannah? I seem to recall her mentioning it on the show but I can remember it specifically.

Thanks.

nomoredrama said...

I want to say to Kelley...we took game 1, baby!!!!!

(everytime you post something, 50 people post after you so the point is moot, LOL)

Sounds like the rest of you are having interesting discussion. I need to figure out what, exactly, that is.

Daisy said...

Linda, you didn't ask me but since I'm reading the book I'll answer about Hannah. Kate said Hannah was the first baby that was able to be held and they bonded first. Collin was the last. She made a point of saying she loves each of her children equally.

I also just recalled something Kate said on one of the first episodes. She said that Hannah needs her more than the others do. It kind of makes sense to me since Hannah is always reaching for her and wanting to be held.

Scarfoot, please feel free to expound.

merryway said...

Daisy said...
...I also just recalled something Kate said on one of the first episodes. She said that Hannah needs her more than the others do. It kind of makes sense to me since Hannah is always reaching for her and wanting to be held. ....


You know I always thought this was the case. Some kids just like to be held and some are glued to their mom for quite awhile.
I always think it's cute when J&K imitate their kids. I thought it showed attention that they could do them so well. They get ripped for doing an imitation of Joel. I do all my kids in their voice and they do me well. My little one was doing me holding my back when she was age two. It was funny. To me it shows we know each other well.
I do have some issues with Kate and the boys, but those aside, the above was first impression of the situations.

Thanks to the posters with the info on the book. I hadn't heard much about it.

Guinevere said...

I'm interested in the book. I might pick it up (I haven't seen it at Borders yet). Particularly knowing that it has some insight and info on things we haven't heard about.

Linda said...

Thanks Daisy. I actually remember hearing Kate say that Hannah needed her to hold her more than the other kids right from the start. After I finish reading some of the other books on my nightstand, I'm going to read their book.

scarfoot said...

Sorry I haven't been responding well to notes. I'm home with the flu and don't have much energy.

I went back and flipped through the Gosselin's book to answer your question about Kate's relationship to Hannah. It's on page 88, and Kate starts off saying "I am going to admit something here that I have received much criticism for." She said that Hannah was the first baby she bonded with, and that they were instantly attached. They "mutually fed each others need to nurture and be nurtured." She says that she did bond with her other children, but to remember that she is human and that it is easier to bond with a baby that you have held and snuggled.

I also thought, bee, that it was sad to see how much Kate's mother and siblings were a part of her life (a huge part, it sounds like). I have no idea what happened, if it was the fault of one party or another. It's just always a shame when family relationships are no longer intact.

Daisy said...

It is a shame, Scarfoot. Relationships can be restored so I pray that theirs is.

On the inside flap of the book it says that Beth Carson is an artist and writer and is currently earning her BA from Albright College. I wonder if that has something to do with Beth not being on the show. She would be busy earning her degree.

marieL said...

Sorry to get back to the pennmommy and/or GWop topic, but something funny regarding PM happened over at GWop this morning. There was a comment that was made which mentioned that BK, pennmommy, Julie, etc. had been attacked that was posted by someone who apparently believed all of the "insider" information. I posted a quick comment stating my surprise that pennmommy was brought up since she was proven a fraud and all references to her had been removed from that site. I knew that wouldn't be published, but I went back to check anyway and the original post about BK and pennmommy has disappeared. I wonder why they went ahead and deleted an entire post because of one mention of pennmommy when they could have just ignored my comment and let it go. Why go to that extreme?

Going back -
When the this blog initially exposed pennmommy I had sent an email to GWop mod Sharla about it and this was her response:

"I've know possummom for ages. I've talked with her through this. She is distraught over having her private photos outed and having to close down a years long collection. I don't believe the lengths some people will go in harrassing a family who has suffered such a tragic loss. All this happened because she allowed someone to use the internet while they were staying in her house. Does she deserve to have her kindness repaid by harrassment and stalking?

If you knew me, you'd know I stand for the actual truth not some pre-packaged tale made of lies and twisted words. Why do you think Kate disturbs me so much?"

Why continue the charade in a personal email response when she could have ignored my email? (which is what I had expected anyway). Something is very fishy about the relationship between possum momma and GWop. I just don't know what it is.

Rufus said...

Okay, I need to switch it back to the PMs saga for just a second. I would just like to say that this has been a highlight of my daily online funtime for the last several weeks. I have been following it closely from the beginning and all the questions, mystery, bickering and sluething has been fascinating and ejoyable. I hope one of the PMs is keeping track of the whole thing and publishes the full truthful story in some kind of true crime novel. I'd buy it in a heart beat. ;)

Mary said...

Anne (4.41) Of course they barely mention this site!
They don't allow dissenting posts. They don't address issues unless they are negative. They don't listen to anyone else and that's why they continued to add condolences to pennmommy. It was pathetic. Of course, to have been wrong was unthinkable for the people at gwop. To have been scammed, when they think they are just too smart for the rest of the world would have been a huge embarrassment.

To say that this crew at gwop does not get off on hate posts is either ignorance or protection of really nasty people. The tone of the posts there gave me a terrible feeling. People fight on the internet because it gives them some sick satisfaction that they can't get in their face to face lives. Other people would either call them out on the spot or call them lunatics. I am very suspicious of one of the supporters of gwop. Her own blogs have come and gone. They give lots of personal information about herself and her family. There was huge drama over a family member that got leaked in some google group which, in turn, began some kind of hate filled, stalking insanity that I don't completely understand and, quite frankly, feel as if I am much better off not digging into any further. Just reading some of it made me feel dirty. This person admits to having a mental illness, talks about it openly which gave more ammo to the people she had begun fighting with. She also talks openly about being an atheist and has a section on her blog that talks about her hatred for the Gosselins. The point here is that there is at least one person who is involved in some way with the gwop site either during it's establishment or afterward and somehow had her name attached to it at one time or another who has all these coincidences that seem to have legs that reach out: atheist connections, gwop connection, blog with way too much personal information connection, publication of fighting with her own family members (think Julie here), hatred of the Gosselin family,history of fighting on the internet with others and, I might add, the level of vitriol on both sides is stunning. I don't know if there is any connection between this person and PM or not but the similarities make me wonder if many of these people go round and round on each other's blogs and internet sites spewing all kinds of things that are a symptom of something that is disturbing and pathetic. This person also gives her real name on her blog. The only reason I mention that is because it made it much easier to find the connections to her all over the place.

To get back to gwop, someone here said something about the same 10 posters continuing to add to threads and getting ugly, etc. I don't read more than a few posts whenever I check that place out. They are boring. They mimic each other. They are predictable. They are mechanical. I can just see them watching the show then running to their computers to post anything negative they can weave about what they just saw. The Gosselins go to a free baseball game. So what? I have been to many freebies through work. Go ahead and hate me. I'll continue to go to freebies when the tickets are sent my way and when it is my turn. That's a perk for working and it happens all the time, everywhere. Perks differ in their "value" but a special privilege, no matter what value one puts on it, is a special privilege and I am grateful for it. I never turned down the baseball seats as I knew I couldn't give those to my sons and they enjoyed going to see the New York teams play. There seems to be so much jealousy over "freebies" for the Gosselin family. They work in TV. There is promotion that goes on everywhere. The show is a huge hit and companies are banging on the door to get their products involved. gwop is not looking at this as a TV show. They are also completely ignorant when it comes to what goes on in the entertainment world. J & K Plus 8 is entertainment. The producers would drop it in a heartbeat if it failed to deliver ratings. I have said it before and I will say it again; the best thing that ever happend to this little show is gwop.

I don't know this family. I don't either hate them or love them, but what I do believe is that a group of people set themselves up as judge and jury out of jealousy, hatred and a perverse need to gather together with like minded people and create an atmosphere of ugliness. It's creepy. The people surrounding the creation of the place are creepy. Now they have moved onto the Duggar family. Does that not tell you something? Who has the time to create sites like this and continue to monitor them? Who DOES that?

Whether you agree or not, the Gosselin parents made a choice to do this program. The public chose to watch. If Paul Peterson had anything to hang on them the show would have been pulled a long time ago. By the way, where was Paul Peterson all this time? Odd, don't you think?

Kids grow up to be who they will be for many reasons. I have known terrific parents who have had children who were involved in horrible things. I have known people who I thought were very lax parents and their children are outstanding and have excelled in school and beyond. There is no way to predict this. My kids were given many perks through the generosity of our employer. They got to go to many things that we could never have afforded to do. They received items, through my husband, that they might never have had as they were given many products in advance of their sale to the general public. Do you know where both my sons are now? They are young, successful and excelling in everything they do. They work hard. They also are getting their graduate degrees and paying for it themselves. They are financially independent and have only been out of college for a few years. You cannot predict what a child will become as an adult.

I appreciate that you can post here and be published. I think all views, when presented respectfully, should be addressed on any subject. That said, aligning yourself with very negative, hateful groups that seem to have very odd, coincidental connections to things that turn out to be scams, lies and sources of imbroglios elsewhere on the internet has me question the wisdom of that kind of alliance in general and not just about the Gosselins.

Deuce said...

Going back -
When the this blog initially exposed pennmommy I had sent an email to GWop mod Sharla about it and this was her response:

"I've know possummom for ages. I've talked with her through this. She is distraught over having her private photos outed and having to close down a years long collection. I don't believe the lengths some people will go in harrassing a family who has suffered such a tragic loss. All this happened because she allowed someone to use the internet while they were staying in her house. Does she deserve to have her kindness repaid by harrassment and stalking?

If you knew me, you'd know I stand for the actual truth not some pre-packaged tale made of lies and twisted words. Why do you think Kate disturbs me so much?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

very interesting comment from Sharla...a couple of things: if she knew that Possum was a victim in this, why did she allow the post from Corine (the real PM)?

And why has GWoP not written a statement defending her?

Is it because Julie verifed her exsistence.....don't want to make Julie look bad, or dishonest. Or because they had a link posted to her blog on their website?
>>>>>>>

Did she really say this??? Harrassing families? Isn't that GWoP's speciality?
>>>>>>>

I don't believe the lengths some people will go in harrassing a family.





This email deserves some discussion.

Mary said...

Daisy, something occurred to me when you mentioned that Beth is back in school. Just a thought that maybe she prefers not to be in the public eye and didn't like the attention drawn to her. Who knows? Whatever happened within the family itself might have set off a chain reaction and people felt obligated to either take a side or get out of the middle of the mess. It's interesting to hear some of the things that are in the book. I have no burning desire to read it and have more books here than I can read over the next 10 years, but from what has been quoted here about the mention of Kate's mom and family I can only think that something really upsetting happened. A family is made up of so many things and when you add in laws into the mix there are even more personalities to deal with. Kate doesn't look like a walk in the park to me. I can imagine that her attitude has put more than one family member off. On the other hand, the little bits of info leaked about her father make me a bit suspicious that perhaps there was a lot of authority over her life as a child and she could very well have finally rejected that authority as a grown woman with her own family. If it's true that her father is an imposing figure who wasn't exactly beloved by his children maybe she wants to keep him away from her kids so as not to repeat the cycle? Only she and her family know what the real reasons are. Since it doesn't have anything to do with why I watch the show, it doesn't much matter to me. I only bring it up because I have seen some really ugly stuff spewed about how screwed up her family is, blah, blah, blah. Sometimes the people with the toughest exteriors and the most pushy behaviors are the ones who have been very hurt in their lives. I have a sister in law like that. I can't hate her because I know what she went through but I don't have anything to do with her because she doesn't ever change. Looks to me like maybe Kate is better off without these relationships because I see a change in her. I really don't think the production company said "change or else". We also will never know if the editing of the show intentionally created the character of Kate as is perceived by those who revel in hating her.

intrigued said...

deuce, there are a few possibilities there. 1) Sharla was telling the truth and was accepting her friend Possummomma's version of events as the truth.
2) Sharla was exaggerating her acquaintance with Possummomma to make it look like she had a stronger reason to support Possummomma's story, maybe because she was reluctant to admit that Penn Mommy was fabricated. It sounds much better for GWoP if Penn Mommy is a real person from PA and the situation results from a mix-up because Penn Mommy was traveling. Allowing the post from "Corinne," claiming she was Penn Mommy, also saved face for GWoP. In that tale, "Corinne" was a grieving mother whose only mistake was to use her relative's computer; Possummomma was an innocent victim of circumstance.
3) She actively supported a deception.

DerbyDem said...

Just curious, did PossumMomma post on these sites, or was it found through the grapevine of another blog?

Also, does anyone know what happened to Serena?

Nina Bell said...

Mariel,

I appreciate your post, but with all of the trolling going on I am skeptical of most information like this that comes our way. You have never posted on our site before and you are not using a Blogger ID.

I am not discrediting you, I am just asking everyone to take all of this information with a grain of salt.

There are comments being left on other sites and blogs about this blog as well as other blogs that are totally not true and I know left by trolls. I might have a different opinion than these other blogs, but I do not buy into what is being said about the mods/owners because of that.

marieL said...

Nina Bell,

I have posted here before under the blogger account delurkerloo. My password didn't work for that later on, so I opened a new Google account with the name MarieL. Again, the password didn't work when I tried to post later on, so I gave up on commenting here when we had to use a Google account. I never figured out why the passwords wouldn't go through and gave up on trying. I wanted to post this email from Sharla long ago, but like I said, I couldn't get a comment through here at the time. This is the first time since then that the subject of PM has come up again and I was now able to post using a name without a Google account. BTW, I typed in MarieL, but for some reason it shows up as mariel.

I can assure you the email is real. I'm going to send them to you via private email because I don't want my address and other info showing up here. I'm not computer savvy (obviously since I can't even get a Google account to work), and that's the only way I know how to prove it.

Nina Bell said...

Yes
Thank you delurkerloo and my apologies. The emails are real and the information is as stated

Nina

ductapeovermouth said...

Do you have a direct link to PM (Possum or Penn) and her IT. I think that's what "proof" Berz is disputing. IPs are not an exact science and from what I recall - wasn't the IP in question assumed to belong to PM among the other IDs that were on at that time?

This whole situation is just odd. I guess we all have our own BS meters, but when PM told her story about her son, my heart just sank.

For me, it had nothing to do with what side of the Gosselin fence she was supposedly on. If PM had posted a story here about having a great experience as a volunteer, I still would have the same experience.

The only thing I have "wasted" on PM , I believe were prayers for her son to get better.

From the position, where I stand, I would be considered a "hater" because I am not a Gosselin "fan". I don't condone, driving by their house, or taking pictures of their house or putting their address online, but I think that these things are ripples from their decision to expose their children and their lives.

Personally, I wouldn't compare Jon and Kate to murderers, etc., but I can't speak for those that do - that's their opinion.

NMD, I saw the exchange between you and ISSP and it was filled with smart ass comments. I feel for you, because I know how it feels to try and present your "case" and have it ripped apart and taken as fodder for what the other person perceives as his/her point.

Sometimes, I wonder what the point of any of this - really is.

Linda said...

Serena is now spreading her special brand of love on Duggars with out pity.

Saint said...

Oh! There are TOO MANY comments to read!

To Rufus, who finds this an online highlight...me too! The weather here has been beautiful and nippy, just the way I like it, and I keep hopping all over the Internet, reading back posts, comments, now the atheist blog, etc. I should be enjoying autumn instead, while I can. At this rate, I'm afraid I won't recognize my kids anymore, and no one will want to eat Thanksgiving dinner with me. Maybe I should set the table and invite some bloggers/posters? How about it Fiona, Guinevere, Linda, ThreeFarmers, Berlbebub, Anonymous, and of course Penn Mommy? You can come too Rufus! Turkey, anyone?

merryway said...

I posted on the GH show that I thought it was slick that they were getting paid twice for the same amount of work; the show and the shoot. I wonder if they're doing the same thing with the toys the kids are playing with on the show. The kids aren't doing anything different other than playing with new toys. I would think they would get the same as if these were national commercials (or near close). I don't know if J&K have “people” but this seems the way it would work me. Hasbro should be bigtime $s.

Saint said...

MarieL
I just found your comment about the connection between possummoma and GWoP. If you have an email that you can forward, could you forward it to the blog owner called Calladus? He's one of possummomma's atheist defenders. He was defending her like gangbusters about a week ago on the Berlebub blog. Now he (Calladus) has a post up requesting that anyone with information to email it to him. He seems to be investigationg seriously, instead of just believing her. I think the atheists think that Possummomma had barely anything to do with Gosselin blogs. They might be surprised by such an email?

Saint said...

Hi, Fiona, upthread you posted,
"And Julie, well Julie knew PM right? And Gwop met Julie, right? Maybe not folks...maybe not."

You are right about GwoP mods saying some of them met Julie. They were vouching for Julie. The point is moot now that Jodi posted her video.

You're wrong about Julie saying she knew or met Penn Mommy, though. Julie said she did not know who Penn Mommy was but was certain she was not a fraud b/c Penn Mommy had some of the same expeiences with the Gosselins as she did. They emailed each other. The post is gone, of course, but I do remember it.

I remember because I hadn't considered Penn Mommy to be fraud until Linda suggested it on September 27th to me. Actually she was explaining that she thought you, Fiona thought PM was a fraud. It's in the comments, in the middle of, "A Note to GDNNOP from Penn Mommy." I'm pointing that out because Julie posted her support of PM after that, and I remember being disappointed with her saying she didn't know PM. I had just assumed she would have said so sooner. In fact, my support of PM was based on the idea I had that real Gosselin volunteers would have come forward to say no such volunteer with PM's known characteristics existed.

I realize now that I wasn't thinking carefully.

Saint said...

Intrigued...do you read Posummomma's blog? Is she saying anything over there?

I also thought about the daughter, and it was used in her defense by the atheist friend. Posummomma's daughter got sick after Jason, not the other way around. I don't think Penn Mommy is real, and I just can't swallow all the coincidences anymore. So I guess the little girl (thankfully) was never sick with appendicitis. Who has met this Possummomma anyway? Calladus mentioned that he met them at a zoo for the first time in an August 6th post, over a month before appendecitis. I don't think Berlebub ever mentioned meeting her in person, just over the phone. Her bananabethanna neighbor doesn't count anymore. Apparently, she's a Gosselin volunteer too? I don't know how anyone an swallow this.

Saint said...

Still reading up the thread...
Mom,
"Put a fork in me. I'm done.

Me too. I hope.

A Mom-ynous said...

"Could Beth or Jodi fight TLC or the Gosselins to get paid for episodes that they were previously in? Do the Gosselins get paid for reruns or only for the initial episode. "

In my experience in film (very minimal mind you), I sign a paper that stipulates whether or not I get paid. I can't go back and sue for example if they end up making lots of money b/c that isn't what I signed when I agreed to be part of it. (Well I could sue, but I wouldn't win.)

While Beth and Jody were on the show, their roles "on the show" were pretty minimal. They most likely would be very unsuccessful in a courtroom. While they were a big part of J&K's lives--they were not a big part of the show. I would hazard a guess that the fall out over contract was so that Jody could be featured more and thus fall under pay. (I'm aware that this wasn't the reason for the departure, but it was the cause of the of her ultimate departure.)

How the Gosselins are paid is based on speculation as would the residuals be if there were any. Season 1 and 2 is coming out on DVD though. It would be speculation if they were paid for that as well as I am sure TLC retained their distribution rights.

"Julie vouched for her, but said she hadn't met her."

I often wonder how folks would "vouch" for someone they don't know. I suppose they could speak on the phone. I might say--"they seem credible" or something to that effect if I believe their story. I wouldn't "vouch" for it as true if I don't know them from Adam and have no personal proof. You can never be too safe in the internet world.

MARY said (re: GWOP):
"They don't allow dissenting posts. They don't address issues unless they are negative"

On the contrary--I've posted several dissenting opinions that have gotten through and remaind through. While there is a fine line to cross where they will not post, they are pretty good about letting a good bit through. Of course they will go and defend their viewpoint as necessitated. But I just wanted to say that I personally have gotten many things through and I know that I don't type a whole lot of praise for what they say. (Now I didn't post anything regarding the saga. All I know is I was reading her blog...went off line for a bit--came back and missed one heck of a show down and outing.)


I feel bad for the Gosselins b/c I think their lives will be turned unnecessarily upside down by some non well meaning folks not versed in law or in how to create legislation.

They will flip it and say the kids lives are already turned upside down. But we don't know that. I've yet to see a personal eyewitness testimony published. Just observations of an edited television show.

My children fussed and cried several times today. Edit it just right and it would appear that they have a horrible childhood.






And re: Jody....

This won't be a popular opionion to the dissenters, but I do not trust the video interview.

I'm sure she is hurt, but I had an on-line expert review it (someone who declares themselves an expert in a field but I don't have personal verification of this). And to my amazement, she had a similar observation that I did and found very compelling.

The statement that Jody makes is vague. There are no specifics, not even names. Very generic. Watch the video if you haven't seen it and pretend that she isn't related to the Gosselins and doesn't know who they are. She could be talking about any incident.

I found that odd for someone wanting to provide "credible affirmation". Yes she says what her sister says in her blog is true...but doesn't highlight anything. And truth be told--all Aunt Jody's sister rehashed was what we all saw on television. (I never saw the original blog or took the time to read whatever she posted).

So I've been a bit skeptical of the blog and the video and never accepted it as "proof" of anything. Also note that I have never noticed in the blog anything about overworked children needing legal protection. But mostly--just a bunch of griping about Kate's disposition.

Cheerio said...

I just read the latest entry on Jodi's sister's blog. My question is, and always has been, WHY did the sister suddenly develop neurotic, overly-dramatic feelings of protectiveness towards the Gosselin kids when Jodi was essentially kicked off the show? If the sister's outrage about the kids is genuine, why wasn't she expressing it publically a long time ago when Jodi was still on the show? She could have done it as an anonymous blogger so as not to put Jodi in an uncomfortable position.

I find it amusing that this great concern for the kids came about, not out of any REAL concern, but out of REAL anger...anger that Jodi was no longer welcome on the show. And keep in mind, we don't even know the other side of the story because Jon and Kate have had the wisdom and the class to stay silent on the matter. Jon and Kate certainly have their faults, just like the rest of us, but I do know one thing to be true...they do not harbor inside of them the seething, ugly, petty hatred that's put on display each and every day at GWOP. THOSE are the types of women I worry about being mothers...not Kate Gosselin.

intrigued said...

saint, I never read at Possummomma's blog until after it was made private. You can see a few posts still in cache, but I accessed the body of her posts from Google Reader (you can't see comments, though).

I've been reading her posts at the stamping forum someone linked at the ABC page, though (she's Scarlett75). The person who linked it seems a little off her rocker, and her theory about Possummomma being the other two posters from that forum doesn't hold water to me either. However, Scarlett75 was really active there. She keeps the details straight about her family and illnesses there in terms of what Possummomma has had on her blog, which makes me wary of saying that her daughter was not ill (when she's posting on Gosselin boards as someone she didn't think would be tied to her - like BK - she makes up new life details, like having three sisters). I think Possummomma is the "real" her, if that makes sense, and any ID that she links to that blog and admits is her has more or less the same bio. I do still think she exaggerated details in all her identities. On the stamping board, she does have at least two instances where she claims people from the board are sending her threatening emails and letters, and she really likes to bait people, from what I can see.

Mary said...

I think I'm done. I, as usual am the last one awake and I am reading this stuff trying to follow what happened and when. All I can say is WOW. What a truly miserable and pathetic person or persons who are involved in this PennMommy thing are. Who has the freaking time to do this? This is a sickness that never ends. It's a game that some nuts are playing and they seem to be doing it on all kinds of arenas. I too thought it was fascinating at one point, but now I feel that there is more evil around than anyone could imagine. The explosion of hatred against the Gosselins leads to all kinds of threads on blogs and sites everywhere. It's tragic to fill your life with this kind of insanity.

Just a slight correction to something that was directed to me. Indeed, gwop does keep posts they don't want seen off of their site. I have posted a few times to ask questions re the disappearance of anything related to pennmommy. As far as I know, none of those were ever posted. There are also many people who mention the same thing. They post a comment and it never is seen. I'm glad that you had your comments go through, but that isn't the same experience others have had. I don't give a damn about gwop and rarely do more than drive by and glance at the latest crap, but after seeing the widespread spewing of insanity that this entire pm, possum thing has managed to encompass, I, for one, am done looking around. That a TV show could lead to this kind of krap is a sad commentary on the lives of the people who have made it a crusade even if it means they lie, impersonate others, weave elaborate stories, and who knows what else. That there are multiple liars and frauds is evident. My God, the trail even weaves to splitcoaststampers which is a place my face to face friends and I go to for ideas from the galleries and instructions for new techniques. That's just beyond insane for me.

Hope you find the answers you are seeking but I'm looking at all the posts and wondering one thing. Is this liar and fraud right here, again? Is she blogging and calling herself yet another name?
I followed some of my own suspicions and I'm still convinced there are multiple people involved in this. Just too many coincidences out there. What a wide net of sick BS.

I think pennmommy and possummomma are the same person OR they were doing this together. I don't care who met possum and says otherwise.
The excuses posted are almost childish and if you read them carefully, they repeat themselves and contradict themselves. it's always another bad thing that this extraordinary PM was able to put over on her family. Total BS. Good luck to the blogs that don't believe it, but some of them deserve the label of stupid. There is ugly stuff out there. Reading some of the other things on the trail of blogs that has come out of all this is, at times, disgusting and other times, pitiful.

There are things that I have commented on that are true. I am connected to this show a few times removed through a family member. I know that so much of what is written about the money, specifically the dollar amounts that are paid, if their house is being paid for, etc. are lies. It does nothing for me to lie about a thing like this. Why the hell would I care? When I see numbers like $65K per episode, I have to laugh at the stupidity or sneer at the obvious falsehood. Believe me or not but I know what I know and I have it first hand.
I know people are telling incredible lies and making things up. Whether you hate this family or like them or are indifferent, at least tell the freaking truth. I'm no Pollyanna but tracing this krap has made me even more aware that we have morphed into one sick society.

Mom said...

Intrigued -
I'm wondering if you linked Scarlett75 to another site where there are about 5 posts (using her real name) and a few of them contradict one another when it comes to actual dates of a major procedure.

Linda said...

Mary,

I've been thinking about the posts that wonder if there is something even more wierd about this whole PennMommy / Possum Momma / GwoP fraud.
Here are the things the stand out to me:

1. Given that GwoP fancies itself as "Champions for the Truth," they've not said anything about Penn Mommy. Instead, they've just quietly removed posts.

2. Julie, whose hatred has bred bias, suddenly removed an entry that had previously elevated Penn Mommy to Messiah status within the GwoP cult. Her only brief explanation was that the presence of those posts distracted from the "real issue."

3. GwoP has had a site meter for a long time. Presumably Penn Mommy's and jhawksgirl / atheist-in-a-mini-van / possum mommas IP addresses showed up all the time. Sharla has known possum momma for years and she didn't pick up the IP addresses for Penn Momy and Possum Momma were the same?

I don't buy it.

4. There was a moderator (Laura Linger) who suddenly closed her long standing blog "Sack of Monkeys in my Pocket" because (at least in part) some level of controversy.

You can get some idea about the problems (claiming ill relatives, claiming being physically stalked, etc.) here ...

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.gossip.celebrities/browse_thread/thread/54ec10d9bc789272/214f11f540cc420f?#214f11f540cc420f

and a little here ...

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.gossip.celebrities/browse_thread/thread/302f15aa4c253033/519d3137f88d8f85?lnk=raot

4. Sudden but temporary closing of GwoP which coincided with permanent removal of Penn Mommy's blog.

Hmmm?

HBIC8u said...

One of my comments on this thread made it over to Bohemian Moon's site. You can find it here(scroll to the end to find my comment) :
http://blog.psychic-wisdom.net/2008/10/23/question-of-the-day-what-is-worse-than-an-attention-whore/

Here is my response:

Bohemian Moon,

Before you go off on another rant calling me a coward for not coming to "spar" with you on your own turf, I'm not at all interested in having a one sided conversation with you, as any response that you didn't care for may never see print. You've managed to find other comments here, so I am confident that you will find this one. I've been assured that your response will be posted if you choose to make it here. If you choose to do so on your own blog, I will gladly post the link.


Regarding my comment:



You said:

For what it is worth, I am not totally convinced that at the heart of this matter lies a Munchausen by Internet situation. I am leaning more towards a group effort con. However, the jury it still out for me personally and the truth will come in due time. But, until then, there is no reason for crow, humble pie or humiliation to be on the menu for those that offered nothing but themselves in support and prayer that was given in good, honest and loving faith.

And

I am still baffled by why one (or a hundred) would want me to publicly humble and/or humiliate myself for a exercising a simple and heartfelt act of kindness extended by a stranger, to a stranger, in cyberland.



The opposition you are facing now has nothing to do with how/why this hoax transpired, or your sympathy for Pennmommy. The fact is that you scrutinized an entire blogging community because of something someone made up, and while you agree that Pennmommy’s stories were fiction, you have yet to address that(for those of you following along, you can read said scrutiny here http://blog.psychic-wisdom.net/2008/09/30/no-apologies-needed-pennmommy/).


You said:

Now, along the way, there were some minor things that raised my antenna and had me questioning the entire scenario, particularly after the supposed death. But, I also have an 18 year old who is in college, and this Penn situation during its height certainly played on my fears as a mother. I just could not imagine not supporting someone through this tragedy as I had, even if I did have small doubts. If there was one iota of this being true, I was going to continue to pray. Praying has never been, for me, wasted time no matter what or who it was for.



So, you had doubts about this scenario and yet you had no qualms about the aforementioned “No Apologies” post? Could you not have offered your support to Pennmommy, just in case that gut feeling was wrong, without demonizing this blog in case it was right? My feeling is that it had more to do with your obvious vitriol for us than giving Pennmommy your sympathies. That said, it is your blog and you can say whatever you want, but to call someone out for posting negative things about you on another blog is pretty hypocritical.



I personally don't need/want an apology from you. You've stated that you were "baffled" by the animosity coming from this "faction", so I thought I'd clear that up for you.



Regarding Coloradogirl's comments, I can only say that I can relate to being falsely accused.

Rufus said...

Saint,
If turkey is on you, I'm there. I'll bring my laptop and we can scour the internet for more trolling and sock puppet craziness. Who needs holiday joy when you have PMs joy?

intrigued said...

mom, if you mean the hysterectomy - on the stamping site, there's a post saying she was originally scheduled for the surgery, found out she was pregnant, and then had the procedure after the pregnancy. She apparently used two accounts on the medical support group board, but she didn't actually claim to have gone through the procedure earlier (not that I've found). She used one account to discuss the upcoming procedure, left, then came back with a new name to discuss the actual procedure a year later. Did I miss something else?

From my amateur detective skills, I get the sense that she exaggerates or makes up things that happen to her, but not details that people could verify. Her "creativity" comes in areas that others wouldn't be able to easily check (or wouldn't automatically question), because she meets and calls these people in real life. I only see her creating totally new identities when using profiles that she probably thought would never be connected to her.

I think she's posting as "herself" as possummomma, atheist in a mini van, scarlett75, jhawksgirl, and with her real name. I think she's posting as made-up people as BK, Bethanna (and variants), Penn Mommy, William, and Peppermint Patty. I think the attention she got as BK and Bethanna led to the creation of Penn Mommy. I also think there are some random or anonymous comments at GWoP and elsewhere that are also her backing herself up. There may be more.

My theory of how and why all this happened: I think she really, really likes attention (any attention, positive or negative) in all her online incarnations. She's online a ton - even compared to me, and I'm online a lot! She's very involved online and has a lot of friendships. But she picks fights, too, by posting on controversial topics in a baiting way. She shares a lot of details of her medical problems and has friends or family post under her ID to tell people when she's sick. She is harassed via email, letter, or PM a lot, and will bring up the harassment charges when she's on the defensive; people always jump in to support her, and anyone who questions it is angrily told off. And she seems to invite trolls; on her own blog, she'll devote whole posts to arguing with "an email a Baptist/theist/FLDS woman sent me" or to updating others on her trolls. These trolls have set up websites against her (more than once!) and hacked her blog. She uses the Bethanna name to round up support on other blogs. Bethanna and Peppermint Patty have also plugged her blog on unrelated sites. As "herself," she's claimed to know people who know insiders. You can see her interest in these TV families escalate over time. I think she'd already gotten away with exaggerating stories and fibbing in her "real" online life, and with some sockpuppeting via Bethanna and Peppermint Patty. Branching into new IDs with supposed insider status was probably the next step. She couldn't have used one of her existing IDs because people familiar with those would know she was lying.

The only piece that still doesn't fit for me are the appendectomy dates - but then, I didn't see the posts when they went up on Penn Mommy's blog. Could she have backdated them? Even by a day? In any case, I'm more likely to buy this one unfortunate coincidence than to buy the multiple strange coincidences I'd have to believe if Penn Mommy is a real person.

I think the person behind this is probably dealing with a difficult real-life condition by channeling her energy in a very negative direction.

Linda said...

Another blog and a very well-written post about Julie's refusal to comment on the PM drama.

http://gosselinbloggersdontneedourpity.blogspot.com/2008/10/who-was-pm-and-why-did-julie-vouch-for.html

BTW, check out the comment that suggests that this was a group effort by someone who knows something on the back story.

Here is the comment ...

========

Anonymous said...
I have a realtionship with PossumMomma. Not so much anymore. She is a sick woman, and not just with her physical problems. I KNOW her and what she does. I used to be involved in something I was not and am still not proud of. I have spoken with her in grreat lenghts about her PM postings. She had ALOT of help with this "project". It didn't end the way she thought it would, lets just put it that way. She had many people involved with her in pulling this off. It would freak you out to know who her pals are on the WWW. She tried to get me to help and she thought I was but I was not. She had help with the moderators at Gwop and Msuings from the moon blog. This was a sick and twisted joke on all of you who believed her.

October 22, 2008 10:03 AM

MommyZinger said...

I agree with mary. It is disappointing and disheartening that people do this. Not just Possummomma but all the other trolls that are trying to confuse everyone. When I told my husband about it he said, "What did you expect?" I guess I'm naive. The only discussion board I frequented before these Gosselin ones was Babycenter. It makes me feel worse knowing that this sockpuppeting business probably happens all the time on other blogs and once people get caught they just move on to another one.

I think Possummomma is guilty of lying and fooling people and I want it to come out. But what if Calladus gathers all his evidence, decides she's guilty and puts that information on his blog. She might be shunned by the online atheist community in which she is well known and well liked. I am not sure whether she does this for kicks or if she is in need of some mental help in which case, it may not be the best thing for her to be rejected by her peers.

This is a small detail at this point but I thought people might be interested. In her response to one of my questions, Penn Mommy mentioned she had a daughter and has never mentioned her since even during the whole Jason memorial affair. So that's just another one of the many errors she made.

MarieL said...

Saint - I have given Nina Bell permission to do whatever she wants with the emails I sent to her. She can forward them if she wants and I trust she will leave my personal info out. Those emails were the last direct dealings I had with this insanity and I'd like to keep it that way.

I agree with what Mary has said. As someone who is unfamiliar with blogs in general I'm a little freaked out by all of this. I knew from reading message boards over the years that the anonymity of the internet can bring out the worst in people, but these blog communities with all their treachery and drama take it to another level of weirdness I'd rather follow casually out of curiousity than ever be a part of.

I do believe that the GWop mods and Bohemian Moon were a part of the scam, and I can't help wondering why?? What are they trying to accomplish? Is their a religious or anti-religious agenda maybe? It's too strange for me to even contemplate.

Mom said...

Intrigued -

Your sleuthing must be a bit better than mine as I couldn't find the follow up about the hysterectomy on the sister site. I did the math and thought, well, she could have gotten pregnant. But, I thought it was strange that she had chosen a date of the hysterectomy on her profile which was prior to baby #4. Ah, what drama.

I agree with you in that I believe how PM came about. I also believe that she befriended people over at GWOP and Shrew as now two peeps have admitted to "knowing" possummomma.

Strange world we live in, eh?

Poohbear said...

Some things I have gathered from reading. Am I on the right tract?
PossumMomma was a mod or befriended a few mods at GWOP.
Serena was gone and another mod (can't remember her name but she posted she was sick of the whole thing while it was down) was gone when GWOP came back online. Is it possible they left after finding out some at GWOP were in cahoots with the whole Pennmommy thing?
The level of lies makes me sick.

BEE said...

Cherrio I couldn't agree with you more! If Julie has been so concerned with the kids welfare then did she condone her sister's involvement in the show? Did she tell Jodi that by being on the show that Jodi was "exploiting" them as well?

And Amom-ynous you have some interesting theories! I have always wondered why Jodi's video was so vague and didn't say Jon and Kate, or the Gosselins etc.

I also wondered why Jodi would go public on a blog and not make an official statement?

Who even knows if there is a rift between Jodi and the Gosselins? (Jodi and Kevin were both mentioned in the book)

rain88 said...

I read the post/comments at "Gosselins Bloggers Don't need our pity"? It surmises that Jodi was dumped because she is an unfit caregiver and gave the children gum and is likely Anorexic? Was that supposed to be a parody of the "hate Kate" posters at GWOP?

Linda, is there any other proof that the GWOP moderators were in on the PM scam other than an annoymous post? Is the claim that Possum Mommy who has been posting for years as an athiest befriended the GWOP moderators and then put together the Penn Mommy hoax just so that GWOP would have some credibility from an insider? I'm so confused.

indianprincess said...

I feel like this whole situation is in the twilight zone. I hope Calladus can put his conclusion together and then everything can be done with it and move on. This is getting stanger by the day and all the pointing fingers at who is at fault is just plan weird. I don't trust any Anon comments on any blog. If you know someone involved then don't hide behind some fake name fueling the already weird fire. IMO!

Linda said...

rain88-

No, there is no proof just that "anon" posting which (as we know) should be taken with a grain of salt.

I guess that I'm back to Sharla admitting that she has known Possum Momma for years. It strikes me as odd that she wouldn't come forward with a more emphatic defense of her.

And as far as Julie being in on it -- I don't think so. I do think that there is a strong possibility that she (and the rest of us) were duped by more than PennMommy.

intrigued said...

I don't know what kind of stuff may have happened a while back or "behind the scenes" - on TWoP before things were shut down (I looked to see if the pre-May threads about the show are still there, and they seem to be gone), at the private board that's been mentioned, or wherever. I've seen enough to make me believe very strongly that Penn Mommy was a ruse and was also Bethanna, BK, etc. - the word from this site on posting locations, the photo, the clichéd stories and dodgy answers, the use of JHawksgirl1's ID, Penn Mommy and William's irrational behavior and the lack of real information about them, and the writing style (the writing more than anything else).

I haven't seen anything to lead me to believe that GWoP or any other group cooked this up, apart from anonymous messages. I think maybe people are just getting confused, or maybe others are trying to cloud things with too many accusations. I think that GWoP was irresponsible not to vet their sources and were trying to make themselves seem more legitimate, then trying to cover their asses later (by removing PM's posts and responding to questions with emails about how they had reason to trust PM) - but I don't think they created the sham - they just gave it a platform. I think Bohemian Moon felt important that she got emails from Penn Mommy/William, and liked feeling self-righteous by pointing out how "mean" people were to Penn Mommy; she gives herself a lot of pats on the back for how great she is. But I see no evidence that she had a hand in creating this, either.

Guinevere said...

Why does this story make me think of PM?:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iidrMKZwVNDDlEtkssY6t1xxhg9QD9411DE01

Obviously it's not just on the internet that people make up this sort of crap. It's just easier on the internet. But in both cases you have someone (IMO) with a) an agenda and b) a desire for attention. Very sick and sad.

Saint said...

For Fiona,
Julie's "In Support of Penn Mommy" post can be read here.

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:yUckDPd7db0J:truthbreedshatred.blogspot.com/2008/10/in-support-of-penn-mommy.html+%22Penn+mommy%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us

Julie clearly says she doesn't know Penn Mommy, but she also testifies she's the real deal, based on correspondence.

Anya said...

Guinevere, I saw that story too and agree with the PM parallels. It's also another story that on reflection I *should* have known from the very beginning was crap.

Sure, weird things happen, but if something sounds "off" or a bit over-dramatic - chances are it is!

dawn9476 said...

Linda: Duggers Without Pity is one big love fest about the Duggers. Even though if you research the Duggers through the sites on their site, you will find links to racist and hate sites that parade themselves as family values group. And I don't know why they don't complain about gender roles with the Duggers like they do with J&K because the Duggers follow a set of principles in which women and girls are taught to be subordinate to their husbands, fathers, brothers, and every other male figure in their life.

Kikibee said...

So, Julie knows the Gossellins well enough to answer questions about them and offer little tidbits here and there, but she couldn't ask PM anything specific that would prove she had ever known them? Or was it not part of her role as child advocate to verify that someone giving personal information about them ever actually had contact with them?

Mary said...

Linda:

Bingo on the blog you mention and that person. I put that in a comment somewhere yesterday. I have been watching that wackadoo scenario unfold and from what I read (the links you left I have already seen) there is a lot of ugly stuff that seems to surround that blogger. I don't know if that person has anything to do with this Pennmommy garbage but for me, if she is associated in any way with gwop, that tells me gwop is not a good place with good intentions and that the other people associated with it are questionable. It has been bothering me way before this pennmommy stuff came up. Associations mean a great deal. Who we choose to hang out with or give our names to speak volumes about who we are.

Enough said.

Linda said...

I will tell you that some of the original posts on Josh & Anna's wedding by none other than Serena suggested that JimBob got angry because Josh might be viewing porn or masterbating. I wrote to them and insisted that they take it down because it was irresponsible. They did but it was there for some time. I think that the people from Gwop are dangerous.

FIONA said...

I find it amusing that this great concern for the kids came about, not out of any REAL concern, but out of REAL anger...anger that Jodi was no longer welcome on the show. And keep in mind, we don't even know the other side of the story because Jon and Kate have had the wisdom and the class to stay silent on the matter. Jon and Kate certainly have their faults, just like the rest of us, but I do know one thing to be true...they do not harbor inside of them the seething, ugly, petty hatred that's put on display each and every day at GWOP. THOSE are the types of women I worry about being mothers...not Kate Gosselin.

October 23, 2008 8:47 PM

----
Very well said, my thoughts exactly.

FIONA said...

Saint,
Thanks for the link...I think. It was again hurtful to read such lies, and the fact that so many believed it, and maybe still do. BoMo wrote about me too many times to count, ridiculed and harassed. It looks like she is now getting a taste of what it feels like. Is she in on this, it seems like she is. And rereading Julie's endorsement just makes me sick.

Linda,
I thought the same thing about Serena's comment on the Duggar site! Geez, these are good and decent people.

rain88 said...

If my sister was insulted the way Jodi was in the gum episode I'd likely start a blog to explain what I knew. I didn't find J&K's comments in that episode wise or classy. Why would they have to comment? They'll be moving soon and don't need to worry about Jodi, Kevin or Julie.

They have their kids and their TV show, Kate seems to like that her family is a cohesive unit without much outside interference and Jon doesn't seem to object. If that works for them then good on them.

I can't imagine it though. I have only one child and I cherish the relationship she has with her cousins, aunts,uncles, and grandparents. Maybe if I had 8 kids I'd be thinking "who needs them".

If Julie turns out to be another hoax I'm going to have to quit reading the J&K+8 blogs altogether.

Saint said...

Ah! Fiona, I am sorry. I was only referring to Julie's declaration that she did not know Penn Mommy. I apologize for linking to a hurtful post; I wish I hadn't. It's not all that important. I am sure you've had a tough time of it online, and confident that your real life is quite satisying and not nearly as dramatic. I will declare, you were unfairly 'picked on' and that whole 'Fiona/fiona' thing was so confusing I just gave up on it. Please forgive me.

If it makes you feel any better, I did invite you to my imaginary Thanksgiving dinner! :) Rufus is bringing his laptop! Maybe we'll have the whole PM/PM saga figured out and scripted into a novel by that time!

Saint said...

To rain88:
Regarding your take on Julie, I agree wholeheartedly! Many posters at the various Gosselin blogs say, "No matter what, you don't blog negative stuff about your family!" Normally, I would agree. Except under one circumstance: To defend your family! Why can't people see, that Kate is not Julie's family, but Jodi is? When Julie's blogging about family, it's in her family's defense! Kate was rude on national TV talking to the cameras about Jodi. She was! Even some mods here agreed with that. My own sense of filial pride would have sent me straight to the biggest microphone in the world if my sister had been spoken of as patronizingly as Kate spoke of Jodi in that episode. I love my sisters and while I am normally reserved (like most family members) I would make an A** of myself if I had to if one of my sisters was humiliated soooo publicly as Jodi was, just to put the loud mouth in her place. Good for you Julie!!

Am I being a little touchy? Is Julie being a little touchy? Well, Kate shut up about it didn't she? And she has had to calm down on national TV, what GWoP calls damage control. It does look like the Gosselins are showing a softer side, so I say, great! Let's applaud them for the changes. We can see they are decent people after all. Let's give their sister-in-law the same benefit of the doubt we should give the Gosselins and stop the crabbing about Jodi. Kate said she was good for the kids, didn't she? Let's try to empathize with the woman who watched her sister hurt publicly.

Julie puts up posts now basically promoting an advocate for the children. Who disagrees with that?

I don't think Julie is trying to disguise her bitterness about how Jodi was treated. I also don't think it's about money. It's about, "I've seen and heard enough from her, and I'm not keeping quiet anymore." I believe that when people cross a line as I saw Kate do in "Gumgate" well, let her have it. Why should one side of the story have to stay silent?

Ask yourself: if you didn't know who Kate or Aunt Jodi were, would you have found Julie's blog? If Kate hadn't beenon TV, would you have cared about this squabble? Would you have had any opinion at all? Those of you who think it's a disgrace to air dirty laundry on a blog for all the world to see, remember that it started on a TV show for all the world to see. Had it been the nasty c**p that unfamous, unseen sisters-in-law all over the world have been spewing back and forth to the shame of the human race everywhere, well, we'd all probably say, "You go girl!" to the defender. The defender is Julie.

Having said that, I would like to say that Kate has been far more tolerable since the pressure from Julie and GWoP. While I feel for the former, and don't generally care for the tone of the latter, I do think that the children are reaping the benefits, and I hope the impartial advocates cannot be too far behind.

So, thanks Rain88 for the opening. And hooray for GDNNOP, who have graciously let me post my defense of Julie, despite our differences. I strongly identify with the role of loving sister who will not stay silent while her sister is shown such disrespect.

Linda said...

saint,

I agree with what you are saying about Julie defending Jodi with one exception.

I've never understood how it was so awful for Jon & Kate to "make $ off of the backs of their kids" but it would have been acceptable for Jodi to make money off the kids.

It seems to me that is where the argument that blog written by Julie and Jodi is one advocating against exploitation doesn't hold water.

If the show exploits the children (as Jodi and Julie NOW say), didn't it always exploit the kids ... even when Jodi was a primary caregiver? If it is wrong to make money off of these kids, then wouldn't have been wrong to make money as a recurring character on the show?

I know that they say that "it was never about the money" but part of that doesn't jive with me.

Personally, I think that Julie has done as much to permanently alter Jodi's relationship with the Gs as Kate. I think that the pay-off for Julie is that she gets to appear to be the hero and she gets to ensure that her relationship with Jodi does not change.

Jenn said...

What is up with the house that gwop keeps blogging about? Are they trying to say this is the house that the G's bought?

Jamie said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anya said...

Any other "The Soup" fans out there? (E Channel). J&K were featured tonight.

They played the portion of Monday's episode where Jon refered the Phillies VP having kids "their age." Kate, of course, corrected him!

Very cute and funny... not too mean spirited.

intrigued said...

Here are a few weird observations, since I've been staying up way too late to see if an inkling I had held any water.

I noticed that there have been some comments that seem very angry and personal that defend Possummomma on several blogs. These have generally been left by people who don't appear in other contexts. I pulled some of them together and started looking through them. Several on Moon's blog are from Brian from Taft. He makes several derogatory references to the Gosselins' greed and how they earn money from their children (I guess maybe Possummomma's friends watch the show?) He claims Penn Mommy wasn't blogging during her son's illness (well, someone was...) and that William had said the family would be at different relatives' homes in the central valley (I never saw William claim that). He's angry that Possummomma's children have been discussed online. He throws a lot of names in the mix, claiming that they've been called sockpuppets and proven wrong. GDNNOP is worse than Penn Mommy in their pursuit of an innocent person; after all, Penn Mommy didn't really take anything from anyone.

Jennifer posted on Berlzebub's blog. She says she met Penn Mommy and emphasizes that Possummomma has not scammed anyone for money.

Daddy O posts in comments on Berlzebub's blog, too. He has information that indicates that Penn Mommy scammed Possummomma from multiple computer locations.

LOLO posts on the stargazer blog (one of Possumomma's online supporters). She's really mad, including being mad that Julie retracted her support. Claims the case is "heresay."

David posted on the Kate is a Shrew blog, but his post has since been deleted. He also claims an alibi for Possummomma.

These people all claim things they couldn't really know unless they knew Possummomma, and their claims are not verified with any evidence, links, anything. Several are angrier than I would imagine even a good friend to be. One focus of the defense is that Penn Mommy didn't take any actual money; another is how good Possummomma is and how much she's had to deal with. They question whether it's a con or a hoax if Penn Mommy took no money.

Their language is a little stilted. I took a good look to see what I'd find. Admittedly, these aren't large samples to work with, but I did find some coincidences. They use all lowercase for Possummomma and Penn Mommy most of the time. They omit apostrophes from many possessives, and split some compound words (fund raising, screen cap, arm chair, sock puppet). They combine others (livingroom) and put hyphens where they aren't needed (half-a-million).

Two interesting misspellings. Hearsay is spelled "heresay" by LOLO. Scarlett75 spells it like that in a post on the stamping forum.

Daddy O spells karmic "kharmic." I looked up both spellings - karmic gats 1,000,000+ hits; kharmic gets 10,000+. Kharmic is used at about 1% the rate of karmic. I entered "kharmic" as a search term at the stamper forum. Just that one word. Only one post came up out of thousands and thousands on that board. I'll let you guess whose it was.

I also used a free online service called the "gender genie" (google it - it's kind of fun to enter your own stuff and see if it gets it right). It's an algorithm that works with about 80% accuracy to predict the gender of an author. Of three posts by Brian, two came up as female, not male. David's was labeled female. BTW, all of William's posts came up as female. 80% is not conclusive by any means, but I thought it was interesting.

I still don't think this is a vast conspiracy, and I don't think that many people are sockpuppeting if you look at everyone involved (all the different boards, posters, etc). The vast majority of people involved clearly have been commenting for a while, or have lives elsewhere on the net (I do, too - I came to this through another board, and I really don't want to lead people back there, so I hope people can forgive the use of intrigued). Like I said at the beginning of the post, it's the ones who only show up in one context and have information they realistically have no way of knowing that ring false to me.

Mom said...

Intrigued -

I was thinking the exact same thing about Brian. And all the "unknowns" who either knew penn or po. IMO, they are grasping at straws.

Something that has stood out to me lately is the local paper feature on that family. She mentions nearly every detail about her illness, family illness, etc. over the internet on several boards (I'm sure there are more). If it is all true, well, my heart aches for her. Why did the writer no mention some detail about how she parents four children, juggles housework/cooking/cleaning, etc. and manages to work on her hobby (scrapbooking) despite the fact that she suffers from lupus. That, to me, would be a heartwarming and compelling story. Wouldn't it?

If I was the reporter and knew about all the health issues, I'd write about it.

It's purely just speculation on my part, but it does make me wonder why it's not mentioned there and it is mentioned everywhere else.

Mom said...

Intrigued -

I am interested in what Calladus has to say. He is one person who I believe to be "real" and not a sock at this point. I'm also interested in the hyster sister follow up posts. I can't find them. Care to share a link or handle? Thanks! :-)

merryway said...

IMO Beezlebub and Calludus are both PM. It looks like Beezle got cornered and handed off to another puppet to buy time. It wasn't until Beezle went out of town that the Brian letter showed up on Moon's site.
I think atheist is just trying to salvage something to keep on blogging or just enjoying the controversy. It's strange that her friends run to the pc to defend her. I can't imagine asking any of my friends to do such a thing with blogging. Where were they before? This part of it is so silly. I'm surprised how little remarks stir the pot on other sites.
I'm a little confused about all the stalking accusations. I can't see where that happened. All that info was out there, put there by atheist. Her blog was plugged (by herself) all over the net. She wasn't stalked, she just got caught.

Anya said...

Intrigued, very interesting information. I am *intrigued* by the Gender Genie site and will check it out. I have to say though, nobody needs to run William's words through an algorithm to know dude is a lady!

Rufus said...

Wow. Intrigued, you rock. Really.

Saint said...

Linda,
Regarding Julie, you raise a good point, and you didn't even mention her vouching for Penn Mommy. I am not Julie, nor Jodi, so I am reading between the lines of Julie's post for this response.

Julie mentions that Jodi was uncomfortable with the show as it became more involved and intrusive in the G.'s lives. So Jodi thought it was OK (as we all did) when it was a special, and the 1st season when it was a smaller number of shows. It's as the shows continues that some objectionable things are shown on TV: private moments, a lot of squabbling and snarking between the parents, and, what I consider the worst of all: Mady's portrayal as the evil twin.*** (See note below.) So Jodi is less and less in favor of the show, as time goes by, and as she sees what the finished edited product is every week. As we've seen, at some point, Jodi takes the kids on Friday afternoons for peace and privacy. We all saw that. I think that's when Jodi felt the show crossed the line. Should Jodi have spoken up? Maybe she did; or maybe she's too mousy and just fell short of her duty as an aunt; or maybe her babysitting on Friday was the best she felt she could do; or maybe Jodi saw others speak up and be cut off so she wanted to tiptoe around the issue to maintain that 'peace and privacy' link for the kids; or maybe she wanted her own children to still have contact with their cousins who lived in their neighborhood. I don't think we can really know, but if any of that is true, it seems reasonable.

As far as the contract goes, Linda, you do not know if Jodi would have taken money or not. Julie clearly says that Jodi did not want money and told Kate so. She wanted contact with the children. The contract is brought up b/c it's the trigger for Jodi leaving the show. I think part of the blog's purpose was to answer that question for Jodi's 'fans.' Jodi heard about the contract and didn't believe that Kate would have interferred as Jodi was told by the production member. Jodi discusses it with her husband, Kate's brother, and he brings it up to Kate, and that is exactly how it would work in my family. I would have my husband discuss with his sister b/c of the tighter relationship. Anyway, Kevin asks, not, "Why isn't Jodi getting paid?" but, "Why would you not at least tell us about the offer, Kate?" I would have done the same thing. I would have been hurt and insulted if my sister-in-law had headed off that discussion between me and the production company and hidden her knowledge of it, whether I wanted a contract or not. Wouldn't you? It was Jodi's contract to turn down, if she was involved with a show that Kate felt was valuable. I think Jodi must have been hit with the realization that her relationship with Jon and Kate was not as good as she thought. I am sure her husband was appalled at his sister's selfishness. I would have seen it that way myself.

At that point, nothing was public. Why would the response become public? It seems as if Jodi's raection was to try to undo the damage for the sake of continued contact with her children's cousins. She humbled herself and told Kate that the contract wasn't the issue, and they should continue as before. "It wasn't about the money." It was about Kate's treatment of Jodi with respect to the contract.

That doesn't mean that Jodi supports the show. It means that she wanted to maintain communication with the children.

The blog went public when her sister heard the back story (see Julie's account of the various incarnations of her online blog) and she wanted to support Jodi in what I see as a protective gesture spurred by her love and pride in Jodi and her sense of injustice. Good for you Julie! She even says she waited until Jodi had decided that she was permanently cut out of the Gosselins' lives. That sounds believeable b/c it seems to have happened in Kate's life before. As I see it, Julie doesn't seem to think there is any chance of Jodi being involved anyway, b/c of Kate's supposed history of cutting family out of her life.

We've seen that blog b/c we've googled 'Gosselins' and 'Aunt Jodi.' Everyone knows their dirty laundry because Kate is on TV, and frankly she's obnoxious sometimes.

Do I know if Jodi's story as told by Julie is 100% true? Nope. Do I know if it's colored by bitterness and humiliation? I suspect it is. But until Kate tells me something else, it's the only testimony I have. Kate has vouched for Jodi's goodness, so I am assuming, it's pretty close to being true.

Kate owes me no explanation. Who cares what Saint thinks, anyway? I'll not be starting a blog or sockpuppeting my inside experiences about Kate.

GDNNOP does a good job defending the Gosselins. You've tempered my criticism of them at least. I think Julie needs a defender and I would hope that some could temper their criticism of her and Jodi. Blog hop on this subject and you'll see it's been getting ugly about Jodi and Julie lately.

-----------------------------------

***I think TLC has unfairly edited some of the Goselins to make the show more interesting, but at their expense. I do not believe Kate is as obnoxious as portrayed in last season. I believe Jon is not quite so dull. I think Mady is bright and normal, not the bad twin I think they were editing on the show. I also think the Gosselins have realized this and have been making adjustments, especially regarding the twins. I heard just yesterday from a very nice college girl who watches the show religiously and "hates" Mady. I blame TLC for that, and hope the G.'s stay vigilant about such portaryals of any of the children.

Saint said...

Intrigued,
Thanks for the lost sleep. I am also intrigued now. You're really bright. I love a good mystery and have never read one without a solution. I thought I may have to give up ever knowing for sure whether PM and PM were one and the same. You have definitely proven it! Can you tell us if Berlebub is a woman, too? Some have suggested it. He certainly isn't the rational thinker he claims to be. Why can't he just admit that he NEVER checked out the "flimsy" evidence before he mocked the far more careful sleuthing at GDNNOP. I believe Guinevere particularly deserves an apology.

Rufus said...

Okay Gender Genie... I am not male, but it seems I write like one. Who knew? Although I feel I KNOW that William and some others were female, I think, as Intrigued noted, we need to take Gender Genie with a large grain of salt.

(Even Saint thought I was male. But I think that was more in regards to my name than anything else.)

intrigued said...

The other ID used on hystersisters is jhawkwife. I haven't found the news article about her.

merryway, I'm certain Calladus is real. He writes extensively and not like PM at all, and he's been featured in the news. I think Berlzebub is real, too. With the exception of Penn Mommy, most of PM's socks have not posted much and don't have fleshed-out personalities; he doesn't fit the bill. There really is a large community of atheist bloggers out there, and they really do like Possummomma's blog and are friendly with her. I don't think it's so surprising that they would post about her closing up shop, especially if they thought she was forced into silence by fundamentalists (and many of them seem to think this). I just think it's weird that the Daddy Os, Davids, Brians, and LOLOs out there (whose IDs only show up in relation to this one issue) all know little details about PM that no one else knows and are taking this quite so personally.

I did find several Davids or Daves on PM's blog. Only one strikes me as odd: David/camerond44/DCam/DCameron. He doesn't log in and shows up once to interview her, but the other times are connected to coordinating gifts or help for PM (in connection with Bethanna).

saint, I couldn't say that Berlzebub is a man for certain without access to some pretty personal things! But I put 5-6 of his entries into that Gender Genie, and only one came up female; the rest are labeled male, most by a heavy margin. It's only 80% accurate, so you can expect a discrepancy one out of five times. The machine says: he's a dude:). I put some of my own writing in for fun, and it got me right (I'm a woman).

Saint said...

Sorry Rufus, you are named the same as a particular male dog in my neighborhood. I didn't think you were a dog at least. You must still bring the laptop. LOL

Gender genie goofed up my "female" girly-girl older daughter's book report (to her chagrin.) It got my husband right though. I tried Berlzebub's writing and came up with both. Grain of salt.

Mom said...

I think the gender genie thingy likes to have a minimum of 500 words per query. I was getting mixed on some peeps as well. But, when I put in more, they were coming up "male."

merryway said...

intrigued, thanks for the info about Calladus. You're right, they would come to defense of her in the blogging world, I was thinking more about me and real-time friends.
This is more complex than any true-crime novel I have read or seen on Masterminds.

The gender thing is cool. I wonder how it would do on Memoirs of a Geisha by Arthur Golden. I was so surprised that was written by a man. I'll have to try it out.

Saint said...

Intrigued,
You are so thorough. You describe these friends of Possummomma's as posting insider info then disappearing. You know who else has disappeared? Penn Mommy and William. Where are they?

They LOVE blogging so much they did it from the hospital and hacked some one's computer to continue. William especially gets ticked off if you criticize Penn Mommy (as she does herself.) Yet Possummomma's friends have allowed unsubstantiated and, frankly, ridiculous claims against William and Penn Mommy to stand unsupported by any evidence. Why? Is it maybe because they are characters in a fantasy that have outlived their usefulness?

ductapeovermouth said...

I haven't had the strength to wade through Calladus & Berlz (isn't that the name of a demon? Maybe I have been watching Ryan and the Paranormal State Kids too much).

Anyway - which one said he actually met PossumMomma - the other it appeared, has just corresponded with her?

Thanks!

MommyZinger said...

Intrigued,
Have you tried the free stylometry software from PhiloComp? It is very easy to work with but I have a hard time figuring out the statistics. I'm sure Calladus would appreciate some objective, math based evidence.

intrigued said...

I wondered if "Brian" would come back to Bohemian Moon's, since a poster asked him a specific question, and he did. He makes a nasty claim: that posters from here screencapped a blog entry from PM's daughter (unclear whether from her own blog, or an entry she'd written on her mother's?) and wrote terrible comments on it, pretending to be names from the entry. Does anybody know what he could be talking about? The screencaps I've seen at GDNNOP are to PM's LJ, and the entry is the one that had "Jason's" picture on it. I never saw the Picasa account while it was open, or any nasty comments anywhere on accounts that PM controlled. Am I missing something (besides why a mom would let her daughter see that)? Or is this just an unsubstantiated accusation to show how PM is being persecuted?

Other than that, it's the same-old, same-old. PM is an innocent victim, she's suffering terribly, this blog is awful for pursuing her and has falsely accused her friends, she isn't a scammer for taking prayers, and even if she did do it, we're worse.

As for William and Penn Mommy, who knows? I guess they rolled their mother-and-son scam over to a new victim. Two grifters, carrying out a long-term manipulation and impersonation of a kind host and continuing the impersonation during a family member's death. They're a regular Sante and Kenny Kimes!

If PM were reading, I'd say: do one of four things. 1)If you didn't do anything wrong and it's important to you that the Gosselin world agree, post a through explanation (yourself, not via some other mouthpiece) of what happened. You're saying your relative was deceptive, so there was some wrongdoing here that you were caught up in, and while it isn't your fault, you can surely see why you look like a suspect. You have nothing to lose by explaining. 2) If you feel you don't owe anyone anything, just take up your blog again, enjoy your time with your friends online, and say fuck it to the whole thing. I have yet to see any proof that anyone has brought this issue to your space in a nasty way; you're the one who rallied your troops and made sure they'd all know. If you get harassing comments, screen them. I doubt even the most tenacious person would pursue this on your blog for long. Ultimately, you can't control other people gossiping about you online, anyway. If we're all wrong, then we're fools and you have the satisfaction of knowing it. 3)If you did it but don't want to deal with it, stop posting via socks with "poor me" defenses and get back to your life instead of keeping the charade going. 4)Otherwise, you owe a public statement to any blog where you posted as if you knew the Gosselins. Explain that even though you have strong feelings about this family, you should not have impersonated a volunteer and made it seem that you had first-hand knowledge, nor should you have manipulated emotions with your stories. Apologize privately to your friends. They might be a little quick to jump in, but they seem like a good, tolerant group. I think they'd be willing to listen if you explained that you made some bad choices and were afraid to lose their support. And get some help, regardless of what you choose to do, because I think you need someone to talk to.

Linda said...

Intrigued,

You are my new on-line hero!

saint,

Thank you for your thought-filled post. It certainly gives me something to poinder. If the timeline is as you say it then I do believe that Kate treated Jodi poorly.

I would have defended my sister too, but I would not have gone "public" to the National Enquirer or publish a blog about it. Nor would I have aligned myself with the GWOP or Penn Mommy.

Had Julie gone straight to Paul Peterson, I would see that as evidence of her (and Jodi's) desire to advocate for the well-being of the kids. Her decisions to align herself with perfect strangers from GWOP and PennMommy, as well as downplay the insults hurled at the children provide evidence to me that Julie is also motivated by revenge and a desire to hurt Kate.

intrigued said...

mommyzinger, I use a Mac and can't run an .exe file (at least not that I know how to do - I think it can be done, but my mad hacker skillz aren't so hot. My computer tried to open it with iTunes! I bought some new music instead).

I was able to look at the PowerPoint file they have on how it works, though. It would be valuable if someone has the time, the computer, and the statistical knowledge to contribute. It would be interesting to see whether a program could pick PM's work out of a bigger control group, not just people already suspected of being her.

ductapeovermouth said...

Had Julie gone straight to Paul Peterson, I would see that as evidence of her (and Jodi's) desire to advocate for the well-being of the kids. Her decisions to align herself with perfect strangers from GWOP and PennMommy, as well as downplay the insults hurled at the children provide evidence to me that Julie is also motivated by revenge and a desire to hurt Kate.

I have always understood Julie's rationale - and I don't even have siblings! I have been witness, though to the strong sibling bonds my Father has with his brothers and sisters and my husband's relationship with his brothers.

With that being said, I think (just my opinion!) who thought things would have gone where they have gone? (Paul Petersen's involvement, etc)

GWOP? I thought it was TWOP with their own "rules" - a place to snark about the show. I still read the posts and sometimes comment, but I am not a "child advocate" per se.

I care about my own children and the welfare of children in general, but the Gosselin kids? Not so much.

I don't "agree" with choices Jon and Kate have made.. but those are their kids. I think based on what other child stars have said that if the Gosselin kids have already learned that they are "special" in the celebrity sense, then the "real world" will be difficult to adjust to when/if it all ends.

At that point, I do hope that Jon and Kate are being responsible about setting aside funds for college, etc. (I don't think so , but oh well.)

I am sucker for kids. That's why I watch. Maybe I wouldn't complain so much about the show, if Jon and Kate would fess up and stop acting like they are Joe Schmoe and family trying to eek out a living like you and me.

Next season if they renamed the show "They Lifestyles of the Rich and Gosselin" - I SWEAR I WOULDN'T HAVE ANYTHING ELSE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT! :)

Nina Bell said...

Intrigued,

I had to go and look what "Brian" said. Not a clue what she is talking about. I find it kind of amazing that she says these things. I guess more amazing that there are people that believe them.

We actually mentioned that we have screen shots of everything on the day we posted that story because she quickly started taking everything down. So I think that is why she is going with that. It goes without saying that no one from this blog did that. In fact, until we opened this post we were trying not to talk about it. This would have died down and she could have gone on with her life. It appears that she wants this drama to continue. Maybe I should share some of the threatening comments that were sent our way.

"Brian" did this to herself. She needs to take ownership of that. She had her life laid out all over the internet. Some of it was real and most of it appears to be a made up fantasy world. She chose to go on blogs and make false accusations on more than one occasion about other posters. She chose to accuse the Gosselins of abusing their kids and stated she had called Child Protective Services. Those are pretty hefty charges in my mind. “Brian” claims no one was hurt by this. How does she know that?

I do want to thank you and Curious for doing a great job of showing everyone how deep this really goes. You both have put a lot of hours into this and discovered quite a bit of interesting information.

scarymerry said...

I don't understand this great stress on possummomma. What is she claiming is being done to her? Like intrigued said, a post would do it. All of you have to do is ignore comments, right?. I don't see how she is being caused to suffer.

intrigued said...

Nina, I can't say I'm being altruistic. I like a good puzzle, as others have said. I've been interested in online posers for awhile. I'm procrastinating about another project. And I admit that I do like to find out I'm right once I start digging on a lead. You all have provided a fascinating tangle of a situation and a nice place to comment. Thank you for hosting.

Anya said...

Saint, you present a very well reasoned and considered defense of Julie and Jodi. Much of what you wrote may be true. I have never thought that Kate did not share responsibility for the apparent break with Jodi and Kevin. And, in fact, I can believe a scenario such as the one you present where she shoulders the majority of the blame.

That said, I agree with Linda's sentiments on this matter. Perhaps Julie started off with good intentions, although if I were her friend or husband, I would have told her to go ahead and write it all out - maybe even send a letter to Kate -- but for god's sake, leave it off the internet...

And, if goes without saying that Julie's behavior in the last couple of months and the associations she has chosen to make, has really lowered my already low-ish opinion of her.

I do hope that Jodi and Kevin and the Gosselins can put this behind them someday. Kate may well owe Jodi an apology, but I don't see any reconciliation happening at present, for obvious reasons.

Roy said...

"Having up to eight TV crewmembers filming at their house for sometimes 12 hours also presents spiritual challenges for the family. “The greatest challenge is putting God first all the time, our family second and not allowing work or the demands of the show to tear us apart,” said Gosselin, who has been called “the busiest mom in America.” "

http://www.commandtheraven.com/2008/10/25/tv-couple-seeks-to-put-god-first-network-edits-out-references-to-him/

12 hours a day? Those poor kids.

Nina Bell said...

Roy,

Do you think that means that the kids are being filmed for 12 hours a day?

roy said...

Nina, I can only go by what the article says, the quotes from Kate, the things shown on the television show and appearances on other programs.
It says, "filming at their house for sometimes 12 hours."
Does it say cameras trained on the children? No.
Does it say cameras not trained on the children? No.
We get to interpret the article according to what we think we see and read about the family.

Nina Bell said...

Roy,

What is interesting is that I saw someone post on another board today the a full time social worker has been on site since last winter and it is the Gosselin's choice. I have no idea if this is credible information. But I would like to know if it is true.

roy said...

I saw that, also. Along with the claim that Jon is a full-time student. Which, if true, good for him. It can only be a good thing for him to get an education.
But, don't you think if a social worker were on the set that TLC would have included that in the statement responding to the CNN piece?
I can see why the family would not have a comment, but that kind of information would have deflected a lot of criticism.

Nina Bell said...

Yes it would have but for whatever reasons the Gosselins have chosen to remain silent. Possibly they remain silent because no matter what they say, we will all just pick it apart anyway. LOL

I still would like to know.

Saint said...

Thank you for hosting, reading, and responding to my little defense of Julie.

I also see resentment and a desire to "get back at Kate" in her behavior. I don't think her reception in the blog world helped either b/c Kate has some nasty defenders out there, too. In the end, I'd stop posting if I were Julie, having accomplished the task of defending Jodi. If there is a chance of a reconciliation, then it's been better that Jodi not tell her own story. I couldn't care less if my sister's sister-in-law likes me, and am sure Julie doesn't care either. Jodi's video means we believe Julie is real, but the Gosselins are even less likely to reconcile. It was a risk. I have a feeling Jodi must have felt pretty hopeless to have OKed Julie's blog.

Anya, you musn't think too lowish of those of us who, like Julie, took up with Penn Mommy. I offered my prayers in her comments, and I truly bought her scam hook, line, and sinker.

Now that I have defended her, I will say that while Julie keeps her blog up, she should put up a short statement saying that she believed Penn Mommy once, no longer, and apologize for unwittingly contributing to the ruse by vouching for her. I think she actually owes that to her readers. So does GWoP and perhaps the other blogs mentioned that I never read.

As for Julie's associating with GWoP: bad idea. I never liked the tone (Penn Mommy's blog was my go-to place for anti-Gosslein gossip.) I didn't think Julie should have been seen at GWoP (or with Penn Mommy), and it does take away something from her basic message. Is she still posting at GWoP? Or did she quit after the PM drama? Since the PM drama, when I do go to GWoP I find it to be so unpleasant, I can't believe I agree with the basic premise as most posters. A little snark goes a looooong way with me. I deplore anonymous posting. Who can follow that?

Rufus said...

I saw the social worker comment too. So they just called up a free lance social worker and hired him/her? I'm not hip to that whole scene, but could it really work like that? If an agency or the state were going to supply a social worker, it would be because of a concern on their part, not the parents'.

Anyone have any information on how a family would go about hiring a social worker to come out and monitor their own children in their own home to make sure they're being treated well and are adjusting properly? And really, if there's even an inkling of a need for this social worker isn't that a huge red flag to the parents?

Rufus said...

Jon in school full time? When? Full time in the evenings? No, because we know he's giving baths and putting the kids to bed. Full time during the day? No, because we see him ALL the time during every single day shoot that takes place. So are we to assume that Jon is attending some kind of online university and taking 12-18 credits (my definition of the full time minimum) late at night after the kids are in bed?

Saint said...

I also want to thank you for allowing the PM drama issues to be discussed here. I was generally convinced when the original case against Penn was posted, but I didn't pay attention to everything and follow links. I just saw Jason's photo and thought I was an idiot to have believed PM.

I think Possummomma's biggest hope to continue with her atheist blog unscathed would have been to ask her fiends to drop the issue, the way you did. It would have died down, and I wouldn't have been "curious or intrigued" by the whole thing anymore. But when they got challenged I think it showed that they didn't even check out the evidence themselves before dismissing it all. I can't believe there hasn't been any response to the style comparisons that our gal Intrigued has done.

Saint said...

Rufus,
No, no, no! That social worker, if there is one, is NOT a huge red flag. You can hire a social worker to advocate for your children by advertising, interviewing, and hiring. It's the same as a nanny, or a house painter, or the band for your wedding. Social workers are free to work for the state, school district, private health facility, hospital, adoption agency, private individual, etc. Please don't assume the worst here, but the best. I do not know if there is one, but I am hopeful it's true. Paul Peterson's organization called for a child advocate. I doubt TLC or Figure 8 would have hired anyone without a law or the parents insisting. Jon and Kate probably never even considered such a move until the pressure from the National Enquirer article or Paul Peterson's posts. What parent would think, "I should insist on a child advocate on the set," unless they were in show business from the start?

It may be a very sore point with them, the way they got that idea to hire a child advocate. Does any one else think that it is likely that Kate and Jon asked TLC not to discuss it in their statement because they want to show they don't care what other outside, "uninformed," people think? They are human and must have suffered hits to their pride over this. I applaud the move if it's true.

Linda said...

saint -

thank you so much for your contributions to this discussion.

You wrote:

"I will say that while Julie keeps her blog up, she should put up a short statement saying that she believed Penn Mommy once, no longer, and apologize for unwittingly contributing to the ruse by vouching for her. I think she actually owes that to her readers."

I also think that Julie contributed to a ruse against the children by her unconditional support of Penn Mommy and her alignment with GwoP. I care less about what Julie owes her readers and more about how her choices have jeopardized the kids.

Ironically, I think one could also argue that Julie has exploited the children too. I believe (and of course none of us will ever know) that her true motivations are to get back at Kate and execute revenge, by feigning interest in the well-being of the kids she accomplished her revenge and her desire to get back at Kate.

Why do I believe this? On PMs blog she was asked if she felt that the insults directed at the kids (on GwoP) were out of line. Her response was that they were for the sake of humor, were sarcastic or were taken out of context.

In short, she was willing to sacrifice the well-being of the kids for the sake of her agenda (whether it was to get back at Kate or her alleged interest in advocating for protections for child reality tv stars.)

The kids were a means to an end. She used them. To me, that is exploitation.

That is the interesting thing in this ... For all of Julie's criticisms that J&K exploit those kids, she has done the very same thing.

========================

On another note, the comment on the ABC message board that Jon is a F/T student and that they've had a social worker on the set since last year (if true) may also mean that ...

22 minutes of edited footage does not give us a full or necessarily accurate picture of this family.

Rufus said...

Saint,
Okay, I see what you're saying regarding the social worker. And I agree, if it's true then I certainly do applaud them for it. But in my mind, there are at least a few things that I would hope a children's advocate would point out to the parents (such as the studio lighting and the long camera crew time in the house, to name two). If J&K went so far as to hire this advocate, I would hope that they would listen and act on his/her recommendations. I guess I'm waiting to see some kind of big change that would cue me in, as a viewer, to the presence of this advocate.

And no, I'm so not on the Gosselin child welfare/advocacy bandwagon a la GWOP, but if the issue is out there, I'd like to know/understand more about it.

Guinevere said...

I want to thank curious and intrigued for their contributions to unraveling this mystery further, and saint for her civilized and intelligent opposing viewpoints. I'm not quite rational on the subject of Julie (she gets to me the way Kate gets to some others, though I like to think I don't go to quite such lengths to denigrate her or try to hurt her), but Saint does make some good and cogent points. I have a sister and if someone hurt her you bet I would be pissed off. I think if I went the Julie route, I would be wrong, but I can at least understand if it began with righteous anger, even if it's ending in disingenuous famewhoring (okay, I couldn't get through an entire paragraph without showing my distaste for Miss Julie a bit).

Regarding Brian/PM's posts on Bohemian Moon's site: I've really felt ambivalent about wading into the PM business again. I know there are those out there who are accusing us of "not letting it die", when in fact I really just wish it would. Also, I suspect that second to being able to actually continue to perpetrate her fraud, PM at least is getting off on all of this hullaboo. Being talked about and wondered about, her friends' defenses, her own sockpuppetry and misdirection at half a dozen or more sites...I think she lives for this stuff. I think she's a sick person who vampirically feeds off of manipulating people. And I think by continuing to talk about her, we are in a sense playing into her hands.

That said, the fact that she insists on perpetrating her lies - if she were not publicly lying and sockpuppeting, I would certainly not be talking about her - makes it hard to stay silent. Yeah, I visit Calladus' and Berlzebub's blogs, and it annoys me to see GDNNOP's actions twisted and at times lied about. It really bothers me that Bohemian Moon is allowing an obvious sockpuppet to post rather egregious lies about the harm we've done to PM's daughter and the "fact" that we've accused 20 or so people of being involved in this mess. I don't KNOW that anyone is involved but PM herself. I would bet the house that certain people are her sockpuppets; there are others I'm not sure about. Then there are things like the email from Sharla that I'm just confused about. I'm also confused as to why Bohemian Moon would give voice to someone who apparently duped her once already, and let this person post things that BM must know are lies. I'm bothered that BM herself accuses us of "spreading information all across the internet before even you know the truth, including personal details like full names, phone numbers, etc." - unless I'm misunderstanding her? She must know that we did not post PM's full name. I don't even have PM's phone number; I know where to find one phone number that's related to her, but that's about it, and I would never call it or post it. We did not spread anything all over the internet - we put it on our own blog. So either BM is not being clear in what she means to say, or she's repeating things that she knows are not true, in addition to allowing PM to post lies under sockpuppet names (in addition to Brian, there is another likely sockpuppet - "Chris" - who drags out the old lies about people calling the coroner, "the hospital", etc. I thought that falsehood had been put to rest?).

I'm feeling a little damned if we do, damned if we don't. If we don't talk about it, we're accused of clamming up and sweeping it under the carpet. If we do talk about it, we're not letting it die. Meanwhile, PM and possibly others are lying on various other blogs. It's frustrating.

Anya said...

Saint...Anya, you musn't think too lowish of those of us who, like Julie, took up with Penn Mommy. I offered my prayers in her comments, and I truly bought her scam hook, line, and sinker.

Not at all! First of all, I posted there in the beginning as well. I was not convinced Penn Mommy was a fraud at first. To my knowledge, the only GDNNOP moderator or regular who expressed concern from the very beginning that PM wasn't legit was Nina Bell. (Anyone can feel free to correct me if I am wrong on that). Some of us caught onto the ruse sooner than others, but that was due to a variety of reasons.

Most of the outpouring of sympathy and prayers for PM seemed to me to very genuine and coming from a "good" place. At a certain point, it seemed to transcend anything to do with the Gosselins.

You and Linda have already delineated the reasons for the "lowering" of my opinion of Julie, so I won't rehash that.

As for the social worker and Jon's education, of course, both are to be taken with a huge grain of salt as the majority of insider information we read about the Gosselins on the internet has proved to be false, but I *hope* both are true. I think having another adult pair of eyes, who hopefully has special training in child development and no involvment in the financial side of things, can be nothing but good. It will hopefully be a positive experience for Kate to learn to give up some control. As for Jon returning to school, I also think that's awesome. It would appear to indicate that he is thinking of his future after the show. Also, I am a big proponent of education period and I think Jon would be setting a great example for his kids to further his education when he is currently not working a 9-5 job.

Linda said...

For what it's worth, I had my doubts about PM from the beginning.

I believe that this mess is set up to have people post more and more outlandish tales about the Gosselins because they get praise for doing so.

Remember ...

"You are soooo brave for coming forward."

"You are soooo courageous for speaking up."

"Keep up the good work Penn Mommy."

"You have a lot of support out here Penn Mommy."

blah, blah, blah --- bleck!

I think it was NoMoreDrama who called it "love bombing."

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anya said...

Linda said...For what it's worth, I had my doubts about PM from the beginning.

Thanks, Linda. I knew there were probably others. Just wanted to be clear that I wasn't in the original group of skeptics until some folks were kind enough to point some things out to me. And I remember Julie being the primary reason I believed PM for the time I did. I am a bright bunny, eh?
:-)

Oh, the days of the "love bombing" - it's all coming back to me now. Bleck indeed!

Guinevere said...

Anonymous @ 9:25 - I had to delete your post - please resubmit with a name. Thanks!

twinmom said...

I am looking at this thing in this way: These people on these other blogs are going nuts because what was discovered by the people here is correct. The fact that it continues is very telling. This Bohemian Moon person who sees ghosts (maybe she does, but if she's also intuitive why can't she use her power to tune into one of these freaking mommys?) is lapping up the attention and the traffic on her blog. These bloggers must have some kind of ego when it comes to hits or something. These atheist sites (good luck to them, I could care less who believes in what) are also getting some thrill with this "mystery". I can't help but think there is one sick individual watching this whole thing play out and enjoying it. All this garbage over a cable TV show.
I think the women who created GDNNOP and figured this out should be commended and thanked. Who cares what these idiots are saying on other blogs? This community seems to remain the same; open and inviting dialog. If it was me I wouldn't set my fingers to posting on any of those other blogs. To hell with them. Let them go off into obscurity where they belong. I don't know for sure that any of the answers are true or certain but I do know that this was based on lies and a desire to do harm. If this krap about a family member, etc. is true then just step up to the plate and give her up! There are too many coincidences for this to be anything but a hoax that snowballed and gathered up people as it grew. First someone says they met up with possummomma. Then it seems they were in touch via phone, email and snail mail.Which is it? And by the way, you can meet someone in person that you found on line and they can still be scamming you. The most bizarre aspect of this entire saga is that it was conjured up over a TV show and used to draw attention to someone who is so desperate to have people pay them homage for being a martyr. Even if there is one tiny shred of truth to this anywhere, I am beyond caring about them. Jesus, it's almost staggering to think about all the energy that went into this.

tired in nj said...

For godssake, can we move on from PM/Moon/etc.? We've expended enough energy on them.

Nina Bell said...

Tired in NJ

People are welcome to discuss this subject under this post. We were quiet about it for quite awhile after we first wrote about it. Other sites have not been.

If people want to talk about it, this would be the place. It is called Open Discussion.

I tend to get really tired of reading about Kate's hair, the Gosselin's moving, the freebies among other things. So I just don't read those comments on other sites. I find the sites or posts that talk about things that I am interested in.

What Penn Mommy did was something that should never be swept under the rug. The ramifications go way beyond people expending time and energy on praying for them.

CeeCee said...

I was one of those trusting people praying for Penn Mommy and was shocked at the outcome.

What I found curious was the "other site" scrubbed every reference of her from the site and refused to print any questions from people who wanted to know what was going on.

They are apparently pretending it never happened.

Daisy said...

I know what it's like to be duped by a troll on the internet. Thank you Nina for providing a place for us to talk about PM and get it out of our systems in order to move on.

I know how hurtful this was and my heart goes out to all who believed her.

HBIC8u said...

Who cares what these idiots are saying on other blogs? This community seems to remain the same; open and inviting dialog. If it was me I wouldn't set my fingers to posting on any of those other blogs. To hell with them. Let them go off into obscurity where they belong.


You are right about that. I have been posting on moon's blog because she called me out, but she's only interested in dodging questions and making the same accusations over and over again even after I've explained to her why she's wrong. Obviously she's not mature enough to admit that she isn't always right, or to even try to see things objectively. I'm pretty sure that now it's just a way to keep the conversation going on her blog and I'm not interested in helping her out.

There really is no point in arguing with someone like that. You can never win.

momof5 said...

hbic8u said...
You are right about that. I have been posting on moon's blog because she called me out, but she's only interested in dodging questions and making the same accusations over and over again even after I've explained to her why she's wrong. Obviously she's not mature enough to admit that she isn't always right, or to even try to see things objectively. I'm pretty sure that now it's just a way to keep the conversation going on her blog and I'm not interested in helping her out.

There really is no point in arguing with someone like that. You can never win.
-----------------------------------

Okay, I have an honest question here. I have been following the back and forth between you and NMD with Moon and I guess I'm just not 'getting it'. What exactly is she not admitting to and what is she refusing to answer? I'm honestly not 'being smart' or trying to start anything...I'm honestly confused. It seems like so much of what everyone is trying to say gets lost in transition or something.

HBIC8u said...

momof5 said...

Okay, I have an honest question here. I have been following the back and forth between you and NMD with Moon and I guess I'm just not 'getting it'.



Moon has accused this blog time and time again of posting Possummomma's address and phone number on the Berlzebub blog. I tried to point out to her that it was never posted here, and that whoever did (if berlz is being truthful) had to dig for it and it really could have been anyone on either side of the Gosselin issue, as both sides were posting evidence against Possum on that blog. We weren't the only ones duped by her and therefore weren't the only ones with a bone to pick. Even if it was someone who posts here, the mods can't control everyone. If someone had that information they didn't get it here.


I went on to ask her if she took responsibility for everything any of her frequent posters said on another blog.
She simply won't answer that question because the answer is no. She has a double standard so she ignores it when it is pointed out to her.

And it is only getting "lost in translation" because that's what she wants. She repeatedly answers questions with questions and attempts to twist the answers to fit her point. Go back and read it again, you'll see what I mean.
Notice in her most recent response she is back to equating the personal info(phone and such) to the actual info that was posted here. The two are nowhere near the same.


Seriously, we have our differences of opinion but really, what should the mods here have done, let people continue to believe Pennmommy's story knowing it was a lie? This blog was crucified when everyone thought she was legit and now we're being crucified for proveing she wasn't.

Rufus said...

I just saw that Kate is going to be on The Bonnie Hunt Show tomorrow - Tuesday 10/28. I had never seen the show before but, I caught it today when I was flipping channels and saw that Kate will be on tomorrow.

momof5 said...

hbic8u~

Thanks for responding to my question. While I can't answer anything for Moon as to why she has chosen to respond to you in the manner she has, I can however, respond to the last part of your response:

Seriously, we have our differences of opinion but really, what should the mods here have done, let people continue to believe Pennmommy's story knowing it was a lie? This blog was crucified when everyone thought she was legit and now we're being crucified for proveing she wasn't.
-----------------------------------

This has come up many times before, and at least from my perspective I don't believe your mods should have withheld the information. From what I have been reading and learning about the situation it was only a matter of time before someone came forward, there was just too much information that didn't add up. I've also stated before that one of the only reasons I said anything negative is because I felt the manner in which it was done was wrong. People did have a right to know the truth.

Saint said...

I don't usually read Moon. I started when I saw a link from Penn Mommy's blog comments and followed as "William" posted emails there. I do not fault Moon for being duped like the rest of us, but why is she so angry at GDNNOP? If she's hanging back trying to find "her own truth" shouldn't she be glad the mods here have done most of the work on one side of the issue for her? Or is she angry because GDNNOP spoiled the surprise? There are more than enough clues left to claim. The posters Intrigued and Nonesoblind from other sites have done quite excellent work with the writing style comparisons and more. I suspect there are new and interesting sock puppets yet to be discovered.

momof5 said...

hbic8u said...
I think the worst part of it for me is that now that we all know that she was a fraud, some still act as if she is the victim, and we are the school yard bullies.
I just can't understand that.
-----------------------------------

I think that stems more from this whole other issue of possummomma and her 'socks' trolling/posting and rallying support for her. Possum has some major supporters who are willing to defend her to the end. Some of these supposed defenders bring the PM thing into the mix to muddy the waters and confuse the issues by saying she is being wrongfully accused or that she is mentally ill, etc.

HBIC8u said...

momof5 said...

I've also stated before that one of the only reasons I said anything negative is because I felt the manner in which it was done was wrong.



I think the reason that this blog may have been a little smug about the PM thing was more about proving our innocence than proving her guilt. We were accused over and over of stalking this woman when we did nothing of the sort. Some troll posted that comment here(probably pm)and it slipped through moderation. That's all. A lot of us found this blog because we were against the way that gwop posted personal info about the gosselin family and were actually being intrusive(threats of calling cps and disrupting speaking engagements), so to be accused of stalking pm was really hard to swallow.

I think the worst part of it for me is that now that we all know that she was a fraud, some still act as if she is the victim, and we are the school yard bullies.
I just can't understand that.

HBIC8u said...

momof5 said...

I think that stems more from this whole other issue of possummomma and her 'socks' trolling/posting and rallying support for her. Possum has some major supporters who are willing to defend her to the end.



I agree, but I'm also talking about people like moon who will concede that PM was a phony but still want to insist that we are evil because we posted the info needed to prove our case.

HBIC8u said...

BTW, I deleted that last entry to correct some misspellings and resubmited it. I thought it was the most recent post but now it may be a bit confusing. Sorry bout that.

Saint said...

I have to defend this blog.

I don't think the moderators at GDNNOP were smug posting the information about PM being PM. In fact, I was a little slow to comprehend the whole thing because they wouldn't just give out an actual name. I think they were cautious.

I have never seen any pictures or phone numbers anywhere except through two sites started/maintained/ended by Possummomma herself. I believe that it is still within her abilities to remove every single picture of her children from the Internet whenever she decides. I don't really understand why she has not yet done that, if only for her own peace of mind. I went to look for what they were because of the accusations against this blog (and others?) about posting personal information such as photos of children and phone numbers. Her friend made the accusation, unsupported. I never saw phone numbers. I do not read all the Gosselin blogs and forums out there (who could?) so there may be more than I've seen, but not at GDNNOP.

This bothers me: Repeatedly I have seen the facts that GDNNOP did not produce IP numbers as evidence that there are no IP matches. I honestly have no idea how one would go about getting or tracking an IP address, and what the number would mean. I have no real reason to find out. If an IP address is considered private, hidden, or personal in any way, why would Possummomma or her defenders want it displayed? Wouldn't that be a privacy violation?

I saw an IP address of a poster displayed on another blog (weeks ago,) and I was ashamed for the person who posted it. Now THAT looked smug. Who could trust posting anything where that is done?

About the IP's again: doesn't it matter WHERE the post is? How can someone demand an IP from a post at a blog early in the summer from the moderators of another blog? How can GDNNOP get IP numbers from posts at GWoP?

If GDNNOP have IP numbers from Penn Mommy and Possummomma that match from when Penn Mommy was supposedly stealing the account, who would that convince? Isn't the reply to the matching IP's, "Well, she was stealing the account! She did it before; she did it all summer. Of COURSE the IP's match!" So what can posting IP's do except offend someone's privacy?

I sound confused, but I really think it's been making more and more sense, ever since the P-Blog Update posts at Berlzebub's Inferno went up. The thing is, he hasn't really responded over there to the writing style analysis; details, I believe, he wanted.

In the end, the post called "Hypocrisy and Anonymity" was aptly named. The hypocrisy I see now is that of a blogger who accused the moderators here of harassing his friend, without any evidence of his own. The anonymity can easily refer to the various posters in the Inferno who "pop up" (as my favorite poster Intrigued pointed out) to exaggerate facts, confuse what's been posted, & throw out unfounded accusations, only to retreat forever more.

roy said...

I think what's causing some of the confusion is the difference between the PennMommy saga as it relates to the Gosselins and the blogs about the Gosselins (positive and negative), and then the subsequent fall-out from the PM reveal.

There are, to my mind, separate issues here: The PennMommy blog and then the PossumMomma issue.
PM blogged about things she claimed to know firsthand.
GDNNOP mods for several reasons, suspected she was a fraud.
It is part of this issue that gets people polarized: was PM somehow telling some truth or was she making everything up? Your (no one in particular) particular answer to that question somewhat dictates your continued response to the situation.

GDNNOP revealed she was a fraud.
However, at that time, PM was claiming her son was ill and dying. She reached out to bloggers for support. Some chose to believe her.
Others, already skeptical, said enough.
Some posters on this blog said, call the hospital and check. Mods said no, and ended up pulling those posts. (I was reading during the whole saga.) However, it is interesting that PM and "William" reported getting calls. How convenient of posters to give tehm that idea and ammunition.
Some posters on this blog and others continued to believe and gave the benefit of the doubt.
And really, what harm does that in itself cause?

The answer to that brings me back to the central issue: Did the person blogging as PennMommy have real information? And if so, did any of it cause real harm to a public family?

If so, where did she get it? From whom? And for what purpose? I think the person who blogged as PennMommy wanted to cause all kinds of dissension among a group that anyone could already see was divided. She did a great job of clouding the real issue: continued discussion of the treatment of children on a reality TV show.

To string out the story a little longer, PossumMomma and others tried to claim PM was a real person who used the Possums for ill.
To make matters even more interesting, the Possum supporters are now pitting two or three blogs against each other; appearing here and there to claim that someone is stalking the Possums, that this blog or that blog published information to hurt so and so.
To me, this continued controversy is manufactured.

Is PM real? Was she made up by the Possums to create a situation? How many are involved in the hoax? Do you think the controversy and the fun of watching it all unfold was the real point? I do.

Is there any real controversy at this point over some of the things revealed about the Gosselins? I don't think so. I doubt any mom here would do things as you see Kate doing. I doubt any one here really has gotten a terrific organizing tip from her you didn't see somewhere else first. Any one of you can make a good lunch or organize shoes. You wouldn't organize shoes at the expense of playing with your kids. Kate does, and that is what makes her an easy target.

Do people concede the Gosselins are less than an ideal family? I think so.
Are they turning their children into their livlihood. Sure looks like it.

We may never know the full extent of the hoax. No one is really talking. But to continue fighting from blog to blog is only feeding the frenzy and, I think, the reading pleasure of a group of trolls who can't get over what a group of women will get their knickers in a twist about.

ductapeovermouth said...

Please correct me if I am wrong - I don't remember exactly what the evidence against PennMommy & PossumMomma was or is. Was it not stated that it was more of an educated guess or strong coincidence that they were one and the same because the IP in question was from Bakersfield? Was there a direct match? Or was is just a "guess" between who was on the site at a certain time?

This whole situation reminds me of Fiona and the posting all originating from the University of Utah and the subsequent postings from that IP. Fiona claimed that her IP had been stolen as well.

A lot of people have claimed that that is possible, but improbable that this ocurred. Apparently to actually "steal" someone's IP requires more technical knowledge than most of us are privy to.

I personally cannot believe how far this has come. I cannot fathom how anyone has the strength, energy, etc. to carry out such an elaborate "hoax". PossumMomma has stated that PennMommy and William are real and Jason really did die, but won't commit to how she was "wronged".
For me, if this were true, the logistics do not make sense.

Does anyone else feel like "WHATEVER"?

Saint said...

To ductapeovermouth:

I can easily say, "Whatever," to all of this.

At first the discussion regarding PM was shut down here(after a threadful of posts.) GWoP and Julie hit their delete buttons and the whole thing was set to die down. It may die down very soon, and that would be good for PM herself, I think. The discussion came up again here because it started up again on PM's friends' blogs. The second time around, on the Inferno blog, it looked like other posters than the mods here dug around for themselves to post links to evidence that the two PM's are just one real person. No one had to, but the blog posts at the Inferno blog were accusatory toward GDNNOP. I think the tone on the Inferno blog is pretty respectful, and I found that the information there was easier to follow piece by piece, not all at once. I understood the evidence better when I followed the posts over there then reread the posts here. I must say again, "Good sleuthing, mods! Mom, you especially have been thorough."

Should it continue? Not for my sake. I just put up my little defense and have had my say. I feel better. No knickers in a twist here, anymore.

FIONA said...

One person who could shed a little light on this subject, and who should, is Julie.

Julie had some sort or conversational exchange with "someone", so she says.

Julie, come out of the shadows and give us your account. What was it that convinced you to verify this woman was real?

Put your big girl panties on and speak out.

Or are you so embarrassed that you will just say nothing instead of explaining yourself.

I expect you won't say anything, which I think is cowardly.

HBIC8u said...

roy said...

Is there any real controversy at this point over some of the things revealed about the Gosselins? I don't think so.



I disagree. Pennmommy stated several things(she and others called cps, kate rejected walmart clothing) that are still being thrown around as fact. Saying that cps was called is a big deal. Pennmommy might have started it, but the responsiblity is on the people who continue to say it knowing pm made it up.

momof5 said...

fiona~
I don't believe Julie is being cowardly...I think she's pretty much damned if she does/damned if she doesn't. No matter what she might say it will be torn apart by everyone. Look at what is being said about her and she hasn't even really spoken on the subject-that wouldn't be much incentive for me to want to open myself for more abuse!

roy said...

What if, Fiona, the things that Julie was told that made her believe PennMommy would cast an even darker shadow on the Gosselins?
What if her silence helps protect them from some things said that yes, verified PM's knowledge and also correspond with things the Gosselins would rather not comment upon?
Julie could be protecting the family with her silence.

Nina Bell said...

Hey Mom of 5

"I think she's pretty much damned if she does/damned if she doesn't. No matter what she might say it will be torn apart by everyone"

I hear you. I think we could write the book on that.

HBIC8u said...

What if her silence helps protect them from some things said that yes, verified PM's knowledge and also correspond with things the Gosselins would rather not comment upon?
Julie could be protecting the family with her silence.



Julie has never tried to protect them before, why would she start now?

Nina Bell said...

Roy

Would you stop. No one believes there was a penn mommy. And if you do then you are either a fool or pm herself.

roy said...

"I disagree. Pennmommy stated several things(she and others called cps, kate rejected walmart clothing) that are still being thrown around as fact. Saying that cps was called is a big deal. Pennmommy might have started it, but the responsiblity is on the people who continue to say it knowing pm made it up."

The difference is that since almost everyone agrees that PennMommy is a fictional character, no one is able to refute her claims, or verify them.
You're asking people who say they don't know her to somehow corroborate her story, which, as far as I can tell, no one but the Possumm Posse is doing.
Do you want them to verify that CPS was called? I doubt it.
And, even if they did, would you or anyone else believe them? Or want to believe them?

HBIC8u said...

The difference is that since almost everyone agrees that PennMommy is a fictional character, no one is able to refute her claims, or verify them.


So what, you want me to give the benefit of doubt to someone I have every reason to believe is a fraud. Yeah, I don't think so.

Your implication that she might not be lying makes you one of two things imo, a troll or really gullible.

Mom said...

Saint -

Thanks for acknowledging my detective work. I'm sure all the mods here appreciate your posts, too.

I think, for me, the two posters who have made the most sense for me on Berz's site are Curious and Intrigued. It really wasn't until they showed up, that some additional things fell into place for me.

Ducttape -

I have to agree with HBIC that PM's stories regarding the G's is problematic. The CPS thing really did it for me. It's one thing to snark about K's comments, but to drag in false stories about protective services is taking it too far.

Momof5 -

I hope HBIC answered your questions. I don't know if there would have been any one "right" way to post our findings. We discussed at length how we would post and decided to write what we knew and asked our readers to make up their own minds. Was anything rock solid hard evidence? No, but it was pretty strong circumstantial. What we didn't know at the time we posted was that PM/Possummomma were going to immediately verify the "same computer" thing. What transpired over the next few days were enlightening to say the least. It seems that Possummomma had several connections as herself with other G's bloggers. Somehow in the midst of the other blogs showing support for PM/Possummomma, we became the bad guys, harassers, witch hunters and lunatics. Why must name calling and finger pointing continue?

roy said...

Read more carefully. I am saying the claims PM made about the Gosselins will have to stay just that: claims.
Merriam-Webster: 3 a: to assert in the face of possible contradiction

Since the Gosselins are wisely silent on all this, and no one else is stepping forward, the information the so-called PM put forth can't be verified or refuted. No more, no less.

ductapeovermouth said...

Ducttape -

I have to agree with HBIC that PM's stories regarding the G's is problematic. The CPS thing really did it for me. It's one thing to snark about K's comments, but to drag in false stories about protective services is taking it too far.


I didn't bring up any of these topics.

Last week, supposedly I also had a son who models.

A Mom-ynous said...

"But, don't you think if a social worker were on the set that TLC would have included that in the statement responding to the CNN piece?"

For PR maybe, but they don't have to. Also if the social worker is there, it would be protected by HIPAA that you do not need to know unless there is a compelling reason (i.e. Dept of labor needs to know or child services needs to know.)

So if the parents for whatever reason has this person there but wishes to remain private about it, that is their choice protected by law.

It is interesting at how much folks want to protect privacy--but then they want much private information such as salaries, savings details, and detailed info on the welfare of the kids.

This isn't anything the public is entitled to know.

Unfortunately the naysayers want this proof that they are not entitled too. And it probably would never be made public and the show will always be considered by a minority to be a scandal.

Mom said...

Ducttape -

My apologies. I meant to address that statement to Roy.

And, to you, I meant to say "yes, I feel like the word 'whatever' comes out of my mouth all too often these days! :-)

Sorry for the handle mix up.

A Mom-ynous said...

"Anyone have any information on how a family would go about hiring a social worker to come out and monitor their own children in their own home to make sure they're being treated well and are adjusting properly? And really, if there's even an inkling of a need for this social worker isn't that a huge red flag to the parents?"

I can go out and seek private counseling at any time with a mental health counselor, psychologist or psychiatrist.

I had always assumed "social worker" implied a counselor that worked with a state agency.

In any case--I don't think it is a red flag at all to involve a counselor, therapist, or other agent for your children at all.

Perhaps it is just one more avenue that the Gosselins have sought to protect their family.

Since everyone is crying that they should have someone looking out for the interest of the kids on set, I am impressed that they went and did that on their own if they did since the law doesn't state it is necessary.

Perhaps it helps the parents make wise choices.

I do that myself as a parent. Sometimes when I am unsure of a chosen path for our family, I have sought professional advice on whether what we were doing is appropriate or if we opt to do it, then what would be the best course of action.

Anyone who doesn't seek this type of counsel--wonderful for you that it isn't necessary.

But just b/c the parents--if they did hire a social worker, does not mean it is a red flag that what they are doing is wrong at all.

There are so many things of this family that are NOT filmed--that we forget that this family does have private time that we are not privvy too.

Perhaps their family is like mine--and when they had a major decision that would impact the kids, perhaps they did seek counsel and counsel made sure that the decision was appropriate and that to be safe have some one at the house for filming.

While it looks like the Gosselins live their lives on camera--there is much that is never filmed.

A Mom-ynous said...

" (such as the studio lighting and the long camera crew time in the house, to name two). "

This has bugged me ever since it was first mentioned.

You can see wires running around everywhere (down the walls if they shoot the angles just right).

Those are not permanent lights--but are more than "temporary".

They could easily be moved at any time.

Has anyone NOT seen the inside of a studio to know the difference between a "permanent" set up and something meant to be portable?????

Rant over!

A Mom-ynous said...

"Jon in school full time? When? Full time in the evenings? No, because we know he's giving baths and putting the kids to bed. Full time during the day? No, because we see him ALL the time during every single day shoot that takes place. So are we to assume that Jon is attending some kind of online university and taking 12-18 credits (my definition of the full time minimum) late at night after the kids are in bed?"

Rufus, I don't know the G's personally. But I do know enough that it is foolish to consider that their entire lives are captured in 22 minutes of an episode to assume that there is zero time for Jon to go to school if he were.

There are plenty of folks in this country who by choice or necessity have full time 40 hour plus week jobs AND take on a full course load.

It is more than highly possible that Jon is fitting in a full course load somewhere if he were choosing to do that.

roy said...

"But, don't you think if a social worker were on the set that TLC would have included that in the statement responding to the CNN piece?
I can see why the family would not have a comment, but that kind of information would have deflected a lot of criticism."

If you're going to quote, use the whole quote for proper context. I clearly said that I could understand why the family would not respond to CNN, but it would be in TLC and Figure 8's interest to put some concerns to rest.

Unless, of course, they do not a) think there is anything amiss; or b) rather like all the controversy and potential increased viewership from all sides.

Mom said...

Welcome to GDNNOP Roy! Are you a longtime lurker and first time poster? How do you feel about all the claims made about the G family?

roy said...

I think I answered that already a few posts ago. Claims are just that: claims.

It's a claim CPS was called. But it's also a claim they have a social worker on the set/home. Maybe one of these days the facts will come out.
I think we'd all like to know more and have to read less into so much information.

ductapeovermouth said...

Rufus, I don't know the G's personally. But I do know enough that it is foolish to consider that their entire lives are captured in 22 minutes of an episode to assume that there is zero time for Jon to go to school if he were.

I also consider it foolish to believe that considering the amount of time needed to create that 22 minutes of film, that Jon could really be a fulltime student, closet time not withstanding. IMO.

A Mom-ynous said...

"I also consider it foolish to believe that considering the amount of time needed to create that 22 minutes of film, that Jon could really be a fulltime student, closet time not withstanding. IMO."

Fair assessment, however the G's have said they film only 4 days a week. So he could feasibly accomplish school in the 3 other days.

If it comes from their mouth--it is more than just a "claim". It is their statement as fact. So if they say they only tape 4 days...they only tape 4 days.

I didn't say I believed him or not. I just said their are many folks in this country who tackle parenting, fulltime jobs and full course loads out of necessity or need to get their degree.

It is all speculation of course. My point is there are many folks in this country with far more busy schedules who could pull it off.

alwaysapaneveradp said...

If it comes from their mouth--it is more than just a "claim". It is their statement as fact. So if they say they only tape 4 days...they only tape 4 days.

In other venues, Kate has also said there is no "break" for filming, the People article alludes to a higher number, in the episode with the installation of the shades, the reason is given to keep up with editing, they must be installed. So, from "kate" herself, it is hard to say how long the cameras are really there.

From an industry perspective, to churn out that many new episodes I am guessing 60 - 80 hours per week. JMHO.

MonicaW42 said...

I'm curious on something (since the possum/penn) is still going on...

On this website
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/10/possummomma_has_gone_silent.php

down in comments on October 18th: Possummomma claims ::"The situation with that reality show board is beyond lame. Even though they've been handed evidence to contradict every claim they've made, they won't apologize. It's comical because they claim to be fair and balanced."

What evidence? I see nothing to contradict the claims. This person has delusions. Too bad she didn't really write for "House" because she can come up with some doozies.

I just have never seen any evidence from her or her cronies that shows people were wrong. I think she is a Lifetime movie in the making. Who can come up with this stuff? I would love to hear what a psychologist thinks of it.

Guinevere said...

Do people concede the Gosselins are less than an ideal family? I think so.

I don't even think I know what that means. Are you saying they aren't perfect? That makes them pretty much like everyone else. I don't think they are less ideal than average, if that makes sense.

Are they turning their children into their livlihood. Sure looks like it.

I think it's a matter of how you look at it. They've made what they apparently believe are the best choices for their family. I can't say that the negatives outweigh the positives at this point, so I'm not going to second guess them.

One person who could shed a little light on this subject, and who should, is Julie.

I really think this PM fiasco should be the nail in the coffin of Julie's credibility. She is no more an insider than any of us are at this point; her gossip source has presumably dried up and she's reduced to being just another viewer bitching about the show and pretending concern for kids she barely knows. I'd like to think her days of being venerated are over, but in some quarters it's already become apparent that people plan on learning nothing from getting burned by PM.

intrigued said...

Well, Possum has started a new personal blog (invite-only); I don't know when, but I clicked on her possum_momma ID in the comments of Berlzebub's last post. Calladus and Berlzebub are listed as being co-owners. I guess she's getting back to her life. Calladus and Berlzebub haven't written anything or commented on the situation for days, and I'm not counting on them saying more. I think either she's got them snowed or they ultimately don't care. Considering that they both posted multiple argumentative posts with counter-accusations - then both indicated that they were considering the situation further - I'd think that they could at least say something to wrap up their points of view (and it would be nice to see an admission that they were wrong if they've seen the light), but oh well. I guess it's over for now.

FIONA said...

As my name was brought up again on Moon's blog, I would like to once
again respond to her claims if I may.

My first post regarding the PM situation came after William posted his famous FUBAR letter, where he directly accused me of emailing his "mother" 13 times, calling the hospital, posting to her under various ID's.

To which I responded directly, but it was not posted until Moon wrote
her famous Looney Tunes post whereby I was thrown under the internet bus.

Knowing that this was untrue, I tried to defend myself several times.

She posted about me, and allowed others to post ridicule after
ridicule about me.

Now she speaks of having the same thing done to her and calls it
harassment and putting her down for her beliefs. She is being accused of something and only she knows the truth.

At no time did I read that she asked me to stop posting on her blog. I read "Stop, please", which I am now assuming was her "polite" way of telling me not to post on her blog, although I was still fair game of attack. I actually thought her "Stop, please" was to stop pleading my case.

It was I who, in fact, asked her to stop talking about me, because
what she was saying was 100% false, lies!

Moon, I know that your blog must be important to you. I think now you feel somewhat of the frustration that I did.

I would like to move on. I would like to shake hands and respectively and ask that you do not talk about me on your blog or allow anymore comments about me.

In turn, I will show you the same respect.

Sincerely,

Fiona

BEE said...

Did anyone else see that Jodi has a new entry up stating that she is removing most of her old entries? She says that she is doing so because Jodi needs to be able to move on and with all the recent media coverage that J&K are getting that more people are finding Julie's blog and then approaching Jodi in public etc.

I just find that really odd. If that is the case then why not remove your entire blog and stop the nonesense?

Anya said...

Thanks for the update, Bee.

I agree with you. Julie's been disingenuous from the beginning regarding her motives, however, so this isn't anything new.

Hopefully, this is a sign in the right direction, however. If all she has on her site is re-posts from GWOP's Paul Peterson stuff and old Reading Eagle articles, I doubt many folks will continue to visit and hopefully she will fade away.

And I say this not so much out of animosity towards Julie, but because whatever strife there may be between the Gosselins and Jodi and Kevin cannot be resolved until Julie stops blabbing all over the internet.

FIONA said...

My guess is Jodi said ENOUGH with the blogging.

Julie has not done one thing to help her sister except insure that Jon and Kate will never trust her again.

If Jodi had things to say she should have said them herself, and not on a blog.

Mom said...

Bee,
I find that very interesting too.

Intrigued,
I appreciate you posting here and keeping abreast on your thoughts on this entire situation. I realize many of your posts have been about the whole PM thing, but we always welcome you to post about J&K (if you watch the show, ha ha) and whatever off topic things we chat about. :-)

Saint said...

Julie has pulled most of her posts. She has answered the question, "Where is Aunt Jodi?" She made her defense. I am glad that Jodi has asked Julie to pull back and that Julie has respected the request. My advice for Julie would be to back off completely now. Walk away.

Saint said...

Roy,
If a claim is made by a known liar, do you "consider the source," and treat it with less value as a claim made by someone you know very well to be truthful?

MarieL said...

"I would like to move on. I would like to shake hands and respectively and ask that you do not talk about me on your blog or allow anymore comments about me.

In turn, I will show you the same respect."


Fiona, don't hold your breath. BM doesn't operate that way. I could only stand reading that blog for a few days. It's a place where a bunch of middle aged busybodies enable each other in behaving like immature 13-year-olds. The best thing you can do is never even take a little peek at what they have to say about you or anyone else again. It's all about the fight with that woman. I saw what she did to you and it was disgusting. She's a bully, and if you don't respond to her she'll move onto to someone else.

------------------
Regarding Julie taking down most of her entries - I think it has as much to do with her trying to backtrack and erase what she has said as it does with Jodi's wishes. Didn't Jodi say in her famous video that she was touched by people who stopped her in the store and offered support? Now it bothers her. Guess she's finally getting weirded out by total strangers caring so much about her personal family life. That should have happened just after her video was put on Gwop and she received that massive love bombing talking about her like she's the Virgin Mary. Oh well, better late than never.

Jenn said...

If Julie had never started that blog, Jodi wouldn't be so bombarded and feeling like she needs to "move on". I hope she learned from the whole fiasco. Hopefully her "moving on" includes making ammends with the G family and getting back to normal.

FIONA said...

Thanks Mariel for your support...

roy said...

"Roy,
If a claim is made by a known liar, do you "consider the source," and treat it with less value as a claim made by someone you know very well to be truthful?"

If you want to delve into some specifics, I think you're going to have to get specific.
Who is the known liar, and who is is someone I would know to be truthful?

Because until then, Saint, you're making a question along the lines of "how often do you beat your wife?"

nomoredrama said...

You know, it's funny. When Julie and I got into our little exchange on PM's blog, I asked her how she would feel if people were driving by Jodi's home and approaching Jodi.

She kind of scoffed at me and said "people are driving by and approaching her." I can only imagine that the approaching and curiosity has gotten worse. Now that they have even a taste of what Jon and Kate have, they want to pull back.

Guess that's the real answer to my question..it's ok for them but not for us.

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