Tuesday, February 10, 2009

Dr. Phil Show

Kate Gosselin is scheduled to be on the Dr. Phil Show on Wednesday, February 11,2008

"Octuplets Debate
For most single mothers, one child is enough of a handful, but when a 33-year-old woman in Southern California gave birth to eight premature babies — in addition to the six children under the age of 8 she already has — the country started talking! The mother of 14, Nadya Suleman, recently broke her silence, and it is reported that all her children were created through in-vitro fertilization, an expensive and purposeful process. The case has raised questions: How did she end up with eight embryos? How will she care for all of them? Who will pay these children’s expenses over the years? How do we take the children’s well-being into account in reproductive medicine? Dr. Phil and his panel of esteemed guests, including Dr. Jim Sears, co-host of The Doctors, debate the ethical questions that have been raised. Dr. Phil will also speak with Kate Gosselin, mother of eight and star of TLC's Jon & Kate Plus 8, about the challenges of raising eight children."

122 comments:

marci said...

I'm home working today so I'll try to catch the show. It's supposed to come on at 9:00 a.m. my time.

marci said...

Nope. I think the 9:00 show must be a repeat and the new show airs at 5:00 tonight.

Anya said...

Thanks for the reminder. I thought it was tomorrow. I am going to DVR before I leave for work.

My prediction: in this format, Kate won't have a lot of screen time, but she will do *something* to offend the usual suspects.

I predict lots and lots of posts about what she is wearing and her make-up....

Lizabeth said...

Just got done watching Dr. Phil... wow...
Well Nadya's publicist is definitely working her tail off. Joann Killeen made the really good point that the babies are here now so the goal is to get them the help and make sure they are provided for. Dr. Phil agreed but wants to find out what happened to allow this, and make sure that while we can't change the past we can make sure something like this does not happen again.

He said that she is not a good decision maker but "we treat people like that" and need to definitely do what we can for those babies while also determining what changes need to be made to the system. The publicist/spokesperson, Joann, said that Nadya's church has rallied around her and is working on a strategy to help out with the babies. I think one great point made was when Dr. Phil said that we are throwing Nadya under the bus here for her choices but we also need to be looking critically at the doctor and how the system works.

I find it fascinating that bioethicists are getting involved now and suddenly realizing how potentially dangerous these fertility treatments could be. Dr. Phil said he was asked to evaluate patients before elective surgeries and yet that is not something that has to happen before fertility treatments. One of the doctors said there has to be the conversation about selective reduction and if that is not an option then the doctor should lower the number of embryos implanted.

Now for the good stuff-- Dr. Phil called Kate TV's most famous mom of mega multiples :). "If anyone knows how the handle a gaggle of kids, its Kate Gosselin." They had older footage most likely from the last time they were on. Kate looked really nice-- her grey suit was flattering and her hair is smoother and less stripe-y lately.

When asked what she thinks about the octuplets, Kate said that she is "just very scared"-- she said the first year almost killed her even though she is strong and has a caring, capable husband to help. She had a team of 50 people a week (very strict schedule which her determination and OCD-ness helped her with). I was surprised that Kate seemed to get choked up thinking back on that first year, and impressed at how genuine she was when talking about having Jon and the team of volunteers at her side to help.

She said that the twins are wonderful and very helpful. Kate also addressed how in some big families the older kids can help with the younger kids but when you have multiples like this its just not possible. Dr. Phil asked Kate what advice she had for Nadya and Kate said that she needs a lot of help- very quickly. Beyond the financial stuff, she will need a huge team of lots of help. Kate admitted that the help wears out and moves on so it will be imperative for Nadya to keep people around who will be willing to continue helping.

MonicaW42 said...

I haven't seen Dr Phil yet but saw her on Dateline last night and it just reaffirms my belief something is wrong with her. I feel sorry for those innocent children. The family has also set up a website seeking donations to be sent to a PayPal account. Needless to say, since my husband and I still own property in California and have dual residency, my tax dollars are already going to this mess.
This may come across as harsh, but I believe the fertility field needs to have a crackdown. Also, if you do NOT have the financial means, then you should not be able to try for multiples. It's not like this woman didn't already have any children and her time was running out to have a child.

Anya,

I agree that Kate's hair and what she wore, how she spoke, etc will be attacked and not the real issue at hand.

Guinevere said...

I haven't seen the Dr. Phil yet either - will see it when I get home.

I did see the "Dateline" piece last night, though. I can't really hate her. She is obviously delusional (and maybe a liar, re the welfare and financial help, though given how delusional she is about other stuff, she may not be lying so much as just believing what she wants to believe). I don't see how she can believe that having this many kids is a positive thing.

But I think she loves her kids, I think even if she had her kids for the wrong reasons, she does want to do right by them. I just doubt her ability to do so.

And maybe I'm guillable, but I'm starting to believe her on the "having six implanted but only expected to have one take" thing. If it's true that she had that many implanted before and only ended up with twins once, and we've already established that she's delusional, then I can see her believing that. It still boggles my mind that an unemployed woman with six kids was working to have her seventh, but I can at least possibly believe that she wasn't expecting to end up with a total of 14.

I really hope she gets the help with the kids she needs, and gets some help for her mental/emotional issues as well.

marci said...

Haven't seen Dr. Phil yet, but read Monica's comment and I was wondering what people were thinking about how to put protective restrictions on fertility treatments...at least, I think that's what's coming out of this octuplet mother's situation.

Here are my questions:

I can see how IVF, implanting embryos can be restricted, but how can we protect against HOM in IUI or in the case of spontaneous identicals occuring?

Even if we go far a safe number for the human female to carry, there's not much to be done if more occur spontaneously and the mother chooses not to reduce, right?

And does her emotional and financial state have to be reviewed (again) if spontaneous babies occur? Like, "Mrs. X was okayed for this many babies, but she's gone over her limit."

Or do we require that people who are going to choose not to reduce meet even higher emotional or financial standards?

How many is too many to allow a family to try for? Only as many infants at once as the parents/parent could care for if they had no outside help?

And as far as having the finances to "qualify", how much is enough? Just not needing to ask for state help? Enough money to send them all to college?

(Personally, I think the finances are a tough one, because job circumstances can change thoughout a family's life...they could start off financially secure and through injury or job loss find themselves in financial hardship)

Just thinking out loud.

MonicaW42 said...

As someone who has spent a fortune on fertility to not have it work I don't believe in total restrictions on the fertility issue. I agree circumstances change. I meant it more in the case of a woman who did not have a job in the first place and did this. It seems shady to me. It feels like a slap in the face for those of us who have tried for a child. Maybe this issue is to close to my heart and sets me off. I also wonder on the workmans comp issue of a bad back but was able to carry all of those babies. Again, the deed is done and those babies are here. I don't agree with it. I do hope the best for the children though. No child should suffer for the actions of another.

marci said...

One last thing....

Personally it's hard to me to talk about emotional evaluations and financial status being a requirement of fertility treatments when there are people all the time who have kids the "normal" way who might be considered questionable if they were evaluated on the same points.

Remember the argument to "sterilize" women in third world countries? To me the question about how to restrict fertility treatments comes a little too close to that.

indianprincess said...

I haven't watch Dr. Phil yet but watched Dateline last night. I go back and forth with this mother. My heart goes out for her kids.

Eileen said...

I haven't seen the Dr. Phil episode yet either, but I have seen Nadya in other interviews and I agree with everything Guinevere said. I just can't hate this woman and I'm going to take everything Nadya says at face value for now (even if she is delusional), and I too believe she really does love her kids and wants the best for them no matter how misguided that might be.
She definitely has her head in the clouds, but that's no reason to take it out on those precious babies and the rest of the children. I was happy to read that Dr. Phil agreed that the babies are already here and the goal should be to help them out as best as possible. Maybe things will turn around for this family a little now.

Anya said...

Marci said...Personally it's hard to me to talk about emotional evaluations and financial status being a requirement of fertility treatments when there are people all the time who have kids the "normal" way who might be considered questionable if they were evaluated on the same points.

Remember the argument to "sterilize" women in third world countries? To me the question about how to restrict fertility treatments comes a little too close to that.


Thanks, Marci. You pretty much summed up my thoughts.

Monica, I totally understand your point of view, however, and I don't think you are "harsh" to think it. It's difficult to witness irresponsible behavior such as this and not have an opinion.

That said, I think the only measures I might like to see come out of this are stronger guidelines for fertility specialists as to the number of embryos that can be implanted at any one time.

Thanks, Lizabeth for the re-cap on Dr. Phil.

FIONA said...

I saw Nadia on Dateline last nite and Ann Curry did a great job with the interview.

Unfortunately, Nadia has brought the spotlight on infertility and it isn't a good one.

Someone posted a day or 2 ago about how difficult it is to adopt a pet....even more so a child. I do think fertility pts. should be evaluated and monitored as general standard of care.

That is not to slap in the face anyone who is using fertility treatments or have in the past....

In this case I do agree with Dr. Phil, the babies are here and need love and care. If Nadia can't produce a fit home and financial care for her babies, I think they should be taken from her until such time occurs. I also think she should be evaluated for mental disorders and make sure she is even fit to raise the ones she has.

I can't imagine those fragile babies coming home to such a chaotic home as was shown on TV last night.

She has already lied about govt support and I have a feeling more lies are going to come forward.

I still don't think Kate should be aligning herself with this woman at all. Their cases are so different.

However here is a situation where Kate kind of shines as the mother who "did it"....I can't help but think she using this opportunity for her own gain.

FIONA said...

Monica,

You are right! Just because we can have babies does not make someone fit to raise them!

There are so many neglected and abused kids, forgotten kids, hungry kids...it breaks my heart that our resources aren't going to them but instead to allow free healthcare to someone who didn't think past her own needs.

marci said...

Hey Monica :)

I wasn't asking those questions because I thought you or anyone else was particularly harsh on the subject. I think you make some valid points. Your comment just got me thinking, that's why I mentioned your name. I'm not even sure yet where my opinion falls in the whole thing. Just was thinking out loud.

Trust me...the octuplet mom to me is an extreme case of what can go wrong with parenting choices, let alone fertility treatments.

Sorry if I sounded like I was calling out your comments as being the opposite of what I was saying, because I don't think that at all.

MonicaW42 said...

Marci,

Its ok. I wasn't taking it personally. It is a hot topic. And there are valid points on all sides. I think this issue with the octomom just upsets me for my own personal reasons with fertility. Again, I just really feel for those small little babies and hopefully they will all turn out healthy. I don't begrudge the children getting any help, I just hope they are protected and cared for properly with state and federal aid. There have been so many things said by the mom and grandma that do not jive and this lady may need to have someone overseer her financial with the children.


I remember when I was 10 years old I wanted 12 children because I had all the names picked out for them. I grew up fast on that.

Kuromi said...

Posted the folowing on the "More Octuplets" thread, I but thought it made sense to post it here too....

Lizabeth, I'm guessing that's the site mentioned on either Today or Dateline...

That's totally the PR people's work. I highly doubt her family did anything except say, "Whatever you think is best." And despite all the backlash and controversy, I'm sure there are lots of people who--like many on this site--think that the kids still deserve help since it's not their fault how they were born.

Plus, you KNOW people are dying to send their (mostly nasty) comments directly to Nadya. This is a way to gauge just how many, and how hateful, they are--and then plan a marketing strategy to overcome them.

But like you, I don't know what to think either. If, say, her church had posted something on their site, that would be one thing. Even a humble site with a "wish list" of basics that the kids need (diapers, formula powder of choice, baby soap, etc.) would have been more acceptable.But having a slick cutesy site that solicits only money ... Well, it only bolsters critics who say Nadya is in it for the fame and fortune to be made off her kids.

Lizabeth said...

I am struggling most with the fact that Nadya chose to be implanted after already having 6 children... not to mention having no job and admittedly having a shaky financial situation. In my mind it isn't as much about the fertility treatments as it is about the type of environment those kids will be raised in. Is it healthy? I mean even one more baby would have been a ton to deal with when she already has 6 (3 of which are special needs) at home. Thats what gets me most.

I have no idea the pain that some of you have gone through with infertility. I just know that it seems very irresponsible of Nadya to even want that "one more" child when she already had 6 she cannot provide for.

I hope the babies get the care and help they need. I hope Nadya gets the care and help she needs as well. I think she really does want what is best and that this completely was unforeseeable but still-- like I said before, even bringing one more into her family when she could not afford the 6 she had seems like a risky and very foolish move in my opinion.

CincyMom said...

I guess I thought it was weird that Kate herself would WANT to be on the show. I don't know her reasons, though. I would want to be with my kids in my cool new house since I travel so much for other spokesperson-related duties.

Doing/ not doing this show doesn't affect work commitments and is just more time (2 days at least?) away from family.

Theresa said...

Dr.Phil made a great point that they do more evalutations for elective surgeries (like psych evaluations for bariatric surgeries) than they did for this fertility case.

I still don't think Kate should be aligning herself with this woman at all. Their cases are so different.

However here is a situation where Kate kind of shines as the mother who "did it"....I can't help but think she using this opportunity for her own gain.


You're right Fiona, these two cases are extremely different. Kate is not aligning herself up with Nadya at all. Kate does shine as the mother who handled and handles multiples well. I don't think she's using these opportunities for her own gain. I realize it's your opinon that you think she is, but I think that's your bias against her. Dr. Phil called, she answered. It's a part of the business. (just like how Larry King called).

I hope you were able to see her on Dr. Phil. There was no genuine and sincere truth better said to what Nadya is going to go through than what Kate talked about today. She's lived through it first hand.

CincyMom said...

Did you see she now has a website soliciting donations? I suppose I get it, it's just so......I don't know...

Guinevere said...

Kate is not aligning herself up with Nadya at all.

Yeah, that seems like a bizarre take on Kate's participation in discussions about the story. Kate is asked to comment as a well-known mother of multiples. Nothing more or less.

I was thinking some more about Nadya and wondering about her obsession with having a large family and her belief that being an only child made her unhappy. It seems to me that she's focusing on this one thing as the dividing line between "happy family" and "unhappy family". She doesn't appear to be unintelligent, but there's a serious lack of emotional sophistication in such thinking.

I don't always like call people "immature" because it's such a superficial catch-all for more complex problems. But among other things, Nadya's idealization of a big family strikes me as very immature.

I do wonder though, about those Gosselin-haters who romanticize poverty so they can carp about how the Gosselins think that money=happiness. (You know the ones - they inevitably relate the story of their grandmother who grew up in a one-room shack with 23 siblings and ate dirt for dinner three times a week and was happy as a clam, thank you very much!). I wonder if these same women have issues with Nadya's choice to have so many children with no visible means of support. They don't need money to be happy, right?

CincyMom said...

I thought I sent this, but it didn't seem to make it....
Anyway, I just wonder why Kate would take the time to do Dr. Phil (Larry King, etc....). It isn't a requirement for her and it is time away from kids.

Plus, I just don't get what insight she has since the situations seem soooooo different to me with regards to finances, spousal help. I mean, that's what Dr. Phil was trying to say, I think, but it seems like so much effort for Kate to be there and away from family to really contribute, what exactly?

Kinley said...

I really hope that someone other than Nadya controls any money she may receive. I think she has proved to everyone that she can't make informed decisions on her own.
As for Kate being on Dr.Phil and all of the other talk shows about the new mom, I may have thought her motives were completely innocent if she hadn't plugged her book while there. I think it confirms she was there for more than just giving advice.

Theresa said...

CincyMom--Kate's insight was what that first year was like, even when the multiples came home. It's what to kind of expect for Nadya.

Good for Kate for taking the opportunity to promote her book. I think she'd be stupid not to. Although I didn't see that on Dr. Phil's show, but then again, I did have some interruptions this afternoon, so I may have missed it.

Guinevere said...

Good for Kate for taking the opportunity to promote her book. I think she'd be stupid not to. Although I didn't see that on Dr. Phil's show, but then again, I did have some interruptions this afternoon, so I may have missed it.

I agree. I don't see why she should be judged any more than any mother who chooses to work. This is work for Kate - it may not be directly related to the show but it's promotion and I think it ties into some of the opportunities that Kate is trying to develop, career-wise. I don't see any reason to castigate her for not being home with her kids, unless you really feel that every mother should be home with their kids rather than out working.

As for Kate being on Dr.Phil and all of the other talk shows about the new mom, I may have thought her motives were completely innocent if she hadn't plugged her book while there. I think it confirms she was there for more than just giving advice.

To do what - rob a bank? The use of the word "innocent" here suggests that Kate's motives were sinister. I think Kate is trying to promote herself as a television personality, as well as promote her books, and I fail to see the inherent evil in that.

Lizabeth said...

Kate only mentioned her book after Dr. Phil asked how the first year was for her. She started explaining then said "You could read all about it in our book." He chose to give her a plug, but she didn't sit there pimping herself out at all. It was just a natural part of the conversation from what I saw.

Monica, I love your avatar!! It took me a minute to get it (its been a boring day and with the rain here by brain took a break) :)!

merryway said...

I saw it. I almost missed it and I would have thought it was on tomorrow if it wasn't for the blog. Kate looked great. I think a lot of these guys have some secret little crush on Kate. He he. I was happy because it was the first time I heard her mention her postpartum which I have always had an interest, but I missed what she said because of little one. It's nice to hear her speak about how hard it was, I have a much deeper appreciation for what she must have gone through. I always think it's wise to point out often, that it's much different having a group the same age vs a stair-stepped family. People seem to forget that difference. I don't know why. She did really well and they had the big pic of her book up. That should be good for sales. It's strange that this oct mom has brought so much attention to Kate. They couldn't ask for better publicity, but it's a weird occasion for it. It really seems to me that they would be pointing the finger at Jolie. Has it been confirmed that this woman had her looks changed? I can't remember now. Who knows what on earth is going to happen to the new babies. It seems so doubtful that this woman is going to be allowed to have them unless someone donates some sort of housing. Even then? I still don't think we've heard all of the story. I think the grandmother may just be desperate.

Btw, if I only sat down 15 minutes a day. I never sat down. Conversation is sort of like that.

FIONA said...

Theresa,

Actually I think it is you that has the bias and hero worship thing going on with Kate, and I don't think your perception is clear.

Her presence today was very much an opportunity for her, it was PR for her.

==================================

As for Kate being on Dr.Phil and all of the other talk shows about the new mom, I may have thought her motives were completely innocent if she hadn't plugged her book while there. I think it confirms she was there for more than just giving advice.

To do what - rob a bank? The use of the word "innocent" here suggests that Kate's motives were sinister. I think Kate is trying to promote herself as a television personality, as well as promote her books, and I fail to see the inherent evil in that.

===================================

Why on Earth must it always be "sinister" with you? The poster gave her opinion...her take on things. She has a right to her thoughts, does she not?

FIONA said...

I thought Dr. Phil handled this topic very well. (not a huge fan of his to begin with)

CincyMom said...

I'm not against someone trying to work. I just wasn't looking at Kate commenting on another mom, whether she's batty or not, as work with regards to her immediate family.

I can't put my finger on it, but I just don't understand the producers for the various shows thinking about who would be a good "expert" and calling Kate in the first place.

Then, I wonder why Kate would think it's appropriate to participate. I don't think my opinion is the right one, it really is a passing thought. Just don't "get" the connection, aside from the obvious multiple connection. I don't know, reading my words don't even make sense! So how could I expect anyone else to understand?

OK--trying again. I think the main 2 issues of Nadia with No. 1 was she crazy to do it to begin with and then No. 2 now how will she support them can't be answered by someone who actually doesn't have either of those issues. Is that any better (my writing, I mean? He He). I look at Kate as very outside the main issues and don't see much relevance, that's why don't know why she would make the cross-country effort....

CincyMom said...

And I'm not trying to castigate because I don't even know what that means. I'm just saying the EXTRA time away. I think it's clear between speaking engagements, book signings and other business commitments, she does need to spend a lot of time away, which would include overnight due to the national exposure. So the extra things that come up, I would weigh heavily the professional value vs. the personal sacrifice.

And even to defend J & K, I don't know what their personal circumstances were. Maybe they were already with a relative or having fun with something else and her absence caused not one itty bitty blip of an issue in their lives.

FIONA said...

I think it is all about exposure CincyMom, for Kate, and taking every opportunity...she is savvy that way.

MonicaW42 said...

Thanks Lizabeth,

I stole it from my husbands screen saver.

Saint said...

How much does Kate travel away from home? I get the impression that a full-time nursing job would bring in less money and require more time away from home. I'm not following that closely though. Maybe someone has this information?

Saint said...

I understand you, CincyMom. Kate didn't have the same experience as Nadya did. Kate had a bigger home, almost half the children total, and sextuplets, not octuplets. She was also married. She got pregnant with a different method. It's not the same.

But there are similarities Kate addressed: no job when the multiples were born, the cost of so many babies at once, increased risk for post-partum depression, the emotional and physical toll on the mother. Her comments were appropriate to the discussion. She mentioned her book, which I would expect. These talk shows always plug books. The plug for a book rarely fit into the discussion this well, though.

I agree, Fiona, that Kate is savvy. I thought she came across well on Dr. Phil, better than I expected. I hadn't seen the other recent interviews.

CincyMom said...

I don't have personal info on Kate's daily planner. Just saying that with the book signings, such as Lizabeth posted on, whatever she was doing in Chicago and the Dr. Phil thing, that would be about 9 days away. Plus the "Kate was in California" comment from Jon while moving and the "Kate was in New York" comment for the hike show, I would guess those are another few days. That would be quite the amount of time not to see the children in complete spans of a day, vs. working as a nurse and at least kissing hello or goodnight.

and I don't think one is right or wrong. My husband is away for the week right now. I just wouldn't want that to be regular--we all miss his daily contributions to the house.

Saint said...

I agree that Kate is using the opportunity of commenting on this HOM story for exposure. She was introduced or thanked as "TLC's Kate Gosselin." It IS savvy...good word. I imagine some people who only heard of her through this Dr. Phil appearance may watch the show if they find it channel surfing. Kate's taking good advice. The higher the ratings, the more products she can endorse, the better the $$$ negotiations. There is nothing wrong with that.

She gave good insight, and she was sympathetic toward the difficulties Nadya faces. She presented herself well.

Theresa said...

Theresa,

Actually I think it is you that has the bias and hero worship thing going on with Kate, and I don't think your perception is clear.

Her presence today was very much an opportunity for her, it was PR for her.


Fiona, my perception is crystal clear.

I do not have a hero worship of her. I do feel she's been so trashed by people like you who have a bias (as you stated before a dislike of her) against her. You dig up past things and try to twist them, or just make things up and throw it out on the blogosphere. That has been your agenda ever since I started reading these blogs and see anything with your name on it. That's just as bad. Your agenda is also to appear to be nice when throwing out your latest conspiracy theory. Who do you think you're kidding? What are you so jealous of? And, don't say "nothing" because your hate in every little jab really is showing some kind of problem. It's not normal.

I know Kate is not perfect, but I do have an empathy and sympathy for someone who always gets trashed or people throw out assumptions and extrapolations (like you do) or the innocent backhanded swipe. I realize we are watching an edited TV show and only see 22 minutes of their life, so I take that for what it's worth. Apparently, you don't as evidence by all the assumptions you've made. You don't even know her, so why all the hate and bitterness? Why do you always twists people's words, too? You do it here all the time.

FIONA said...

Saint,

Did she seem nervous to you? Maybe it was just my bias again....but I thought she seemed kindof uncomfortable.

She did look good though.

indianprincess said...

I missed Kate on Dr. Phil. The son bite his finger by accident right before she was to come on the show so I had to take care of him and then I thought I could rewind to finish the show but then the daughter changed the channel. Oh well so I don't have an opinion about Kate. Dr. Phil made some good points like the whole breastfeeding 30hr/day like that can be possible.

Saint said...

I understand, CincyMom, I miss my husband when he is away, he travels at least once or twice a year. I thought maybe someone here has a link or something...I don't follow that closely.

It's hard to conclude Kate was away recently for 9 days. Jon was definitely in State College this weekend and he said Kate was home then.

Saint said...

Fiona,
Not nervous, but she did seem different. I am so used to Kate just being Kate on the show. She acts as if no one is watching on the show, which I think is the point. So to see her talking "interview style" with Dr. Phil impressed me.

Have you had a chance to read "Multiple Blessings" yet?

Fanny said...

I don't think one is right or wrong. My husband is away for the week right now. I just wouldn't want that to be regular--we all miss his daily contributions to the house.


I think that Kate is just riding the wave while she can so that they are financially set when the show is over and the fame is gone. It would be hard, but I think for that peice of mind I would do the same thing.

FIONA said...

Saint,

Interesting POV...I do think she has honed her public speaking skills some.

No, I haven't read it, because I don't want to purchase it. I have scanned thru it at Barnes and Noble a few times.

I am sure I will read it at some point and actually want to.

Saint said...

Indianprincess,
I hope your boy is OK. I have only watched Dr. Phil two or three times before. He's not on at a convenient time for me here. Anyway, he sure gave his opinion, didn't he? Is he usually this "tell it like it is?" I thought he made that "spokesperson" squirm a bit. I liked him.

Annie said...

Monica: I can sympathize. My husband and I have gone through the nightmare of infertility as well.

And, as Fiona said, it's a very long road to adopt. My husband and I are in the midst of 2 1/2 year journey of trying to adopt a baby; that after a year or so of infertility treatments.

And, as someone else mentioned, sorry can't remember who, that's its also a shame/disgusting to see irresponsible people having children and not caring for them when there are thousands-if not millions-like me who would love to care for these children.

I just read about a woman in LA who "dropped" her child into a lake shortly after birth because she did not want to take care of her. My husband and I would have flown down to LA in a heartbeat to adopt that baby.

indianprincess said...

Thanks Saint, the son is fine. He sneezed and bite his finger. I used to watch Dr. Phil all the time and then stopped when the daughter became two and could talk..I had a vision one day she would say to me.."how is that working for you Mom?" so I stopped watching but today I let it slide. She didn't want to watch Dr. Phil as in why she changed the channel when I wasn't in the room. Dr. Phil is a in your face kind of guy and will let you know you're an idiot. I'm glad Nadya wasn't on the show..oh maybe she should have been. Dr. Phil would have put some sense into her because Nadya is a few crayons short of a "Crayola" box!

MonicaW42 said...

Annie,

Good luck in your adoption process. It is amazing all you have to go through to adopt a child. It is good to have safeguards, but on the same note anyone that can get pregnant,can have a child and abuse them or dump them and that is so heartbreaking. One of my aunts and uncle adopted a little girl from China and took almost 2 years from what I remember. I know that baby is very loved.

On another note, I am 30 minutes into Dr Phil (who I normally can't stand to watch) and he is bringing up very good points.

CincyMom said...

Saint--don't mean to beat a dead horse about days away from home but I just wanted to clarify. The days I brought up about Kate's engagements have been documented either in print or on the show. But I didn't mean that they were consecutive. The nine days I'm guessing at would have occurred from Nov-current. That would not include other events, however.

My point was that for me, it would have to be a business event strongly tied to my work to miss additional days and I just didn't think Dr. Phil fit the bill with the Nadia story. Her endorsements, show requirements, speaking engagements, etc. already take a lot of days. Am I clumsily making any sense (whether people agree or not, which I would guess would be not)?

Saint said...

I did think you meant consecutive, CincyMom. Sorry.

I agree with you that even 9 days a month are too many for me. The money involved must be good, because Kate doesn't seem like a "love to travel for business" kinda gal. I wonder how much I'd have to make to choose speaking/interviews as a profession? I do think it's good one of them stays home and one is seeking work outside of the show.

As for the Dr. Phil appearance, I think it was a good chance to show her face to potential viewers and plug her book. She was an appropriate guest.

CincyMom said...

Thanks Saint! I sure take a while to make a clear point, don't I!

I, too, think Kate did a good job presenting herself on the show. I just miss my husband and that's probably to blame for me thinking about being at home, going it alone, for Jon. And she would be missing him, etc and the kids, etc.

But each person has to do what they have to do.

Theresa said...

Annie, my prayers are with you on your adoption process and journey. I hope you will have that child in your arms soon.

FIONA said...

Interesting article on MSN about OctMom...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29147091/?gt1=43001

Theresa Marie said...

I read here a lot, but don't post much. But I am having some strong opinions I would like to share about Nadya and about Kate's appearance on Dr Phil.

I think Nadya is terribly immature. She reminds me, tragically, of a 7 year old child collecting all the Barbies she can get her hands on. She is unbelieveably naive.

I thought Kate's small part on Dr Phil was an eye-opener to all the experts assembeled there about how very, very busy she was when her kids were infants. The amount of help she had, like 50 people a week, is mind boggeling. I hope CPS and the powers that be will not allow those babies to go home with her until all the arrangements are in place and ready to go, if they ever are. If not, I hope they all go someplace else where they will all be well cared for.

Nadya never told her own parents about all the money she had been collecting for her disability. She lied by saying she was not on welfare, but it was exposed that three of her older kids are disabled and that she does receive food stamps and other assistance.

She thinks she will finish her schooling and then she will be ready to work so that she can afford to support all 14 of her children by herself. Really? Who is going to watch them while she finishes her degree? Who is there for them when she does (if ever) return to work? Her agent is a real nut. She talks like she is in Laalaa land.

My thoughts with Jon and Kate are this: They both had a lot more patience with all of those little kids when they were infants and toddlers. Too often, now, when they talk to their kids it is to scold them or correct them. We don't see much plain old silly fun going on any more.

Remember when Kate came home from her tummy-tuck and walked into the nursery, and those sweet little kids were all in their cribs? Remember how delighted she was to see those wonderful little babies, and how Leah said over and over, "Hi Mommy," and Kate would just melt.

Ahhh, that was the good old days. Now all 8 of those Gosselin kids cry too much. Jon growls too much. Kate is more interested in her hair and her looks than in interacting with those little kids. Kate screeches at Jon and Jon growls at everone. Ah, heck. I am exaggerating, but I do miss the good old days.

Anya said...

Well, my stupid DVR seems to have DVR'd the wrong episode of Dr. Phil. Guess I will look online at some point, but I appreciate the feedback from those who did see it.

indianprincess said... I used to watch Dr. Phil all the time and then stopped when the daughter became two and could talk..I had a vision one day she would say to me.."how is that working for you Mom?"

LOL! That made me laugh.

CincyMom said...My point was that for me, it would have to be a business event strongly tied to my work to miss additional days and I just didn't think Dr. Phil fit the bill with the Nadia story. Her endorsements, show requirements, speaking engagements, etc. already take a lot of days. Am I clumsily making any sense (whether people agree or not, which I would guess would be not)?

You made sense to me too and I think you make a valid point. These type of judgments are fair in my book, especially when they presented like you have done. Hope your husband is back soon...!

Anya said...

Hi Theresa Marie. Nice to see you posting! :-)

Just curious, do you remember where you heard that Nadya hadn't shared the details of her disability payments with her parents? I hadn't heard that before. It would seem strange that she could conceal that, but nothing really surprises me about this story.

Also you said this: Ahhh, that was the good old days. Now all 8 of those Gosselin kids cry too much. Jon growls too much. Kate is more interested in her hair and her looks than in interacting with those little kids. Kate screeches at Jon and Jon growls at everone. Ah, heck. I am exaggerating, but I do miss the good old days.

I know what you are saying. The only qualification I am going to make (and it's one you have probably heard from those of us who defend the Gosselins before) is we really don't know what gets left on the cutting room floor. Yes, last week's episode (for example) featured lots of sulky and crying children and lots of Jon yelling. It's just hard to know if we are seeing all the worst moments in a given week squished together or if this is all they are giving the producers to work with. Given the fact that I have seen some perfectly adorable webisodes that featured lots of happy and cute kid moments and no bickering about coupons, I tend to think editing plays a big role. I really wonder sometimes if the producers are just intent on flaming the controversy to the detriment of the show many of us fell in love with. I guess time will tell...

CincyMom said...

Theresa-Marie: She isn't even my kid but I can hear it like yesterday.

"Hi, Mommmy! Hi! Hi Mommmy"

sssssoooooooo cute.

Linda said...

I'm so glad that Dr. Phil is putting the spotlight on the fertility doctor.

(other posters with direct experience -- please correct me if I'm wrong . . . )

Fertility treatments are expensive and not commonly covered by insurance. Fertility treatments are very LUCRATIVE for physicians.

Now I'm not saying that every doctor who does this is in it for the money, but I do have to wonder how much money this doctor made from treating Nadya.

JerseyGirl said...

CincyMom said...My point was that for me, it would have to be a business event strongly tied to my work to miss additional days and I just didn't think Dr. Phil fit the bill with the Nadia story. Her endorsements, show requirements, speaking engagements, etc. already take a lot of days.

Just the fact that she is a mother of multiples and knows what the early days are like makes her a worthy guest to put on. As far as her leaving her family, its another one of those damned if she does, damned if she doesnt situations. Kate doesn't work, Kate works too much, Kate should make money without the kids, how dare she mention her book, the kids shouldn't be on these shows, who wants to watch kate without the kids, Kate shouldn't be allowed around the kids, Kate is never around the kids, Kate is fat, Kate only eats salad who does she think she is and on and on and on......

JerseyGirl said...

Below are two quotes from the article Fiona linked here. I am not a supporter of what Nadya did, but these comments are scary, IMO. Yes, we should all only have children we can afford, but to infer that the right to decide who can procreate should be left up to anyone other than the parent is frightening. In America, we get to make choices, good or bad. This isn't China where we/the govt get to decide which lives are worthy of being lived. California also had a whole lot of financial problems before these babies were even conceived, so to try to lay blame on their cribs for the woes of the state is pitiful at best.

It’s my opinion that a woman’s right to reproduce should be limited to a number which the parents can pay for,” Charles Murray wrote in a letter to the Los Angeles Daily News.

“You’re damn right the state should step in and seize the kids and adopt them out.”


(Sorry that my posts always come out riddled with run-on sentences, I'm trying to work and read Gosselin sites at the same time. I should just be concentrating on work but I find it all so fascinating)

marci said...

I watched the show finally. I think Dr. Phil may be as unsure about how to deal with this situation as the rest of the country is. It's hard to be irate at the mother and doctors and compassionate for the children in the same breath.

I thought Kate did well. She spoke specifically about the first year of the tups' life, which was entirely appropriate for the topic. I don't think she knows any more about the extenuating circumstances of how the octuplets came to be than the rest of the world does at this point, so she spoke about what she knows will happen when the babies are home. Kate certainly didn't have this much national attention when the tups were first born, so I imagine she wouldn't comment on this woman's specific circumstances even if asked...I'm sure she knows what it feels like to have your personal decisions judged by people who don't know you.

Something odd coming from this interview (although why I should be surprised by how odd things can get anymore, I don't know)...

Apparently the new theory is *everyone* is in on the conspiracy to cover up the Gosselin *tragedy*, including Dr. Phil because his show moved up Kate Gosselin's appearance by a day.

The geniuses failed to get that the Dr. Phil Show added another show to discuss the octuplet mom.

Yeah, right. The producers *really* want to be tricky and make sure certain people with too much time on their hands for wearing out their computer keyboards don't get to watch the show by pulling an old switcheroo and moving Kate's appearance up a day.

LOL! And they say Kate is self-centered.

Guess what, morons...they don't give a rat's ass what you think!

Eileen said...

I did get to watch Dr. Phil and thought that Joann Killeen sounded like an idiot at first, and I thought she was more interested in donations than getting help for Nadya Suleman who seems mentally unbalanced. A little later in the interview she did say that her job was PR and looking out for the family welfare in other ways than the way that Dr. Phil would be looking at it, and I guess I have to cut her some slack there.
I also read that people are wary of giving donations on the Suleman website because they are afraid they will go for either more plastic surgeries or more fertility treatments for Nadya. But I hear that the Killeen Furtney Group (which is listed on the website) has set up some kind of trustee to oversee the donations so that would make me feel better about donating, seeing that everything would be open and above board and that someone would make sure the money was used properly.
I don't think Kate Gosselin looked nervous, Fiona, I think she just looked more ill at ease, or out of her element, she definitely seems more comfortable when the kids are around in interviews.
I was disappointed that Dr. Phil didn't offer resources to Nadya for counseling like I've seen him do for other guests. I may have missed that though as I was in and out of the room a lot. Did anyone else hear that?
I also heard on the news this morning that Nadya has been getting death threats and is now in hiding. The whole situation is so sad.

Dr. H said...

“You’re damn right the state should step in and seize the kids and adopt them out.”

Yeah, 'cause it's just that easy. Sheesh.

FIONA said...

Eileen,

Ill at ease-nervous, she just seemed uncomfortable to me.

I do think Nadia's PR woman has her hands full, and I wonder what % of the money donated goes to her and her firm.

Nadia's case is unprecedented, and I do think that the money should go in a tightly monitored trust.

Honestly, right now, I will be surprised if she gets to take all those babies home.

Also, I too wondered why Doc Phil didn't offer Nadia some counseling.

ruthy said...

I agree with some of the posters that Kate did look nervous.

I think she is worried that Nadya will be "moving in" on her fame.

Anya said...

JerseyGirl said...
Below are two quotes from the article Fiona linked here. I am not a supporter of what Nadya did, but these comments are scary, IMO. Yes, we should all only have children we can afford, but to infer that the right to decide who can procreate should be left up to anyone other than the parent is frightening. In America, we get to make choices, good or bad. This isn't China where we/the govt get to decide which lives are worthy of being lived. California also had a whole lot of financial problems before these babies were even conceived, so to try to lay blame on their cribs for the woes of the state is pitiful at best.


I couldn't agree with you more, Jersey Girl.

I really don't like a lot of the mob mentality I see directed against Nadya. There have been death threats against this woman. That is completely sick. Similar to J&K, people seem to take some personal offense at this woman's existence and her procreation. Get over it. Whatever happens to Nadya and her children will not make any difference to you and your day to day life. Yes, I am a California taxpayer, but California's financial problems are much bigger than whether or not Nadya's food stamp allotment is doubled or not.

And the references to society or the government stepping in to play a role in who reproduces and who doesn't is Orwellian and completely scary to me.

MrsWood said...

I think it's unbelievably short-sighted when people so righteously claim, "Take the kids away!" Have these people ever seen a child who was seized taken out of a person's house? It is THEE most traumatic thing I have ever witnessed, both for parents and children. To make a claim like that without knowing 125% of the facts is ridiculous. That is one of the main reasons why I have absolutely NO respect for GWOP. They make claims about a family they don't know and never will know. I know it's one of their rules that they can't say the kids should be taken away, but it doesn't stop them from saying it. Nadya's situation definitely seems to be a bit off, but it isn't anyone's place besides the authorities and appropriate family members to say the kids should be taken away. There is definitely an implication of "I know better" when such crazy claims are made. And the fact of the matter is that it's not up to anyone but those immediately and directly involved in the case.

Lizabeth said...

MrsWood, thanks for your comment. I can totally see where you are coming from. At least for me, the reason I mentioned the kids possibly being taken away is because of Nadya's apparent instability which Dr. Phil addressed. I really do think she wanted "just one more" and completely got more than she bargained for. At the same time, with 6 little ones at home I do not feel it was responsible to go for that one more when she had no means to support her family as it was. Why spend all that money on IVF when you can't put food on the table without going to public assistance (which she said in her original interview that she would never use, then when called on her food stamps said it was a temporary thing).

I do agree that it is not up to anyone here that is completely uninvolved in the case to make claims that the kids *should* be taken away. From what I have read, though, some of us have serious concerns about what would happen if the babies *are* taken away and how it would impact both Nadya and all of the children. It would be a shame to split them up if that ever happened, and I sincerely hope there is another way for the family to stick together, Nadya to get the help she needs, and the babies to grow up healthy.

Eileen said...

Fiona, I read that Michael Furtney from the PR firm said "everything is being done pro bono", now I don't know if he really meant everything as in any deals that are made they get no cut, or if he just meant the website set up. But it would restore my faith in human nature on this whole subject of Nadya Suleman if someone really is doing this for the family out of the goodness or their heart and not out of a 'what's in it for me' deal. We'll see.
And I didn't mean to disagree with you about the nervous word, just to me nervous would mean more like Kate was fidgeting, and not so composed, but you are right she did not seem comfortable.
And I agree with the posters who say the children should stay with Nadya, it is obvious from what I've seen that the kids love her, and they love the grandparents they live with, and in turn the grandparents love them, and even Nadya in her own misguided way looks like she genuinely loves her children. No way should that family be broken up unless absolutely necessary. And from what I understand, that is the last thing CPS will do, they always work to keep the family together. I hope so anyway.

Guinevere said...

I agree with some of the posters that Kate did look nervous.

I think she is worried that Nadya will be "moving in" on her fame.


ruthy, not to pick on you, but this is an example of why I find it hard to have substantive conversations with anti-Gosselin posters.

I haven't seen the show - it didn't tape for me. So I don't know how Kate looked. Maybe she was nervous, maybe she wasn't. Maybe she was stressed out or tired or intimidated by the different setting. There are so many different, reasonable explanations of why Kate may have appeared nervous (if in fact she did appear so). But I find that when someone hates Kate unreasonably, they go to the explanation that makes her look the worst, whether there is any evidence to indicate it or not.

It just makes it hard to have a conversation. Maybe you don't want to have one - maybe you just want to get your dig in and move on. I don't know. I do know that when you come from such an extreme position, with no evidence to back up your supposition, it makes it difficult for reasonable people to take you seriously and assume that you're sincere.

But I'll try: say you're right and Kate is afraid that Nadya Suleman will somehow impact her fame (and thus her money-making ability) in a negative way. Does that make Kate bad? Or is it a normal human response to be concerned about one's own security (and the security of one's loved ones)?

FIONA said...

Eileen,
I appreciate such respect in your post. I understand what you are saying about nervous, fidgeting etc...no Kate was not fidgeting.

I am glad to hear the PR firm is doing this gratis, at least for now.

I just want what is best for the babies.

Just because Mother's love their babies doesn't make them good or fit to raise them, we all know that.

MrsWood said...

Lizabeth, my comment was in no way directed at you or anyone in particular for that matter. I have just heard people casually saying lately, "Take away the kids" (not on this board), and I don't understand it. I think it is easy for people to say, "Take those kids away," because they have no emotional attachment to Nadya or her kids. It's just a very easy thing to say. Regardless of Nadya's mental or financial state, I don't think it can be doubted that she loves her kids and that her kids all love each other. You are so right -- it'd be devastating for everyone involved should those kids be removed. Why in the world Nadya would choose to have so many children is beyond anyone's understanding. I think your word "foolish" describes it perfectly.

ruthy said...

In response to Guinevere....

I don't believe my comment said anything about Kate being bad or not a normal human being.

I also don't understand how my comment could be thought as "an extreme postition".

You have no idea what my thoughts are about the Gosselin's or their show.

Definition of Extreme:

going to the utmost or very great lengths in action, habit, opinion, etc.

Guinevere said...

Thanks, ruthy, I did actually already know the definition of "extreme". Plus, I have access to a dictionary myself.

To me, your interpretation of the reason for Kate's supposed nervousness was extreme because it was not supported by any evidence - its only intent, as far as I could see, was to paint Kate in a bad light. Maybe she had a dead body in the trunk of her car - maybe that's why she was nervous! We can make stuff up but when our interpretations do not sound reasonable to a reasonable person, our motives for having such an extreme interpretation can be guessed at.

No, I don't know how you feel about the Gosselins, but I made a reasonable guess based on your unreasonable assumption. See how that works? It's called logic, and it's free - anyone can employ it. Even Gosselin haters.

Did you have an opinion on my question? Do you think it reflects badly on Kate if she was "nervous" about having her position usurped by Ms. Suleman?

ruthy said...

In response to Guinevere...

You are right. I apoligize for my assumptions about Kate's nervousness.

Thanks for putting me straight and helping to realize that she probably did have a dead body in the trunk of her car. That makes more sense anyway.

Over and Out!

Kaitlin said...

There is NO difference between Kate and the Octomom. When Kate got pregnant with the tups, she knew that she didn't have the money to care for them either. If it wasn't for the exploitation of the Gosselin children, Jon and Kate would be in the same boat as the Octomom, and we all know it.

Guinevere said...

Thanks for putting me straight and helping to realize that she probably did have a dead body in the trunk of her car. That makes more sense anyway.

Well, it makes about as much sense, anyway.

There is NO difference between Kate and the Octomom. When Kate got pregnant with the tups, she knew that she didn't have the money to care for them either. If it wasn't for the exploitation of the Gosselin children, Jon and Kate would be in the same boat as the Octomom, and we all know it.

We don't all know anything, of course. You should have the strength of character to own your opinion without having to insist that everyone secretly agrees with you.

Many differences between the Gosselins and Ms. Suleman have already been pointed out in various threads. If one chooses not to acknowledge those differences, I can only assume it's because they lack the mental capacity to perceive them. Or they are simply so prejudiced that they refuse to see them.

Anya said...

Kaitlin said...
There is NO difference between Kate and the Octomom. When Kate got pregnant with the tups, she knew that she didn't have the money to care for them either. If it wasn't for the exploitation of the Gosselin children, Jon and Kate would be in the same boat as the Octomom, and we all know it.


Kaitlin, are you new? It appears you have not read the numerous others posts on this where we have carefully delineated the very obvious and many differences between Jon & Kate Gosselin and Nadya Suleman.

As for your assertion that "we all know" that Jon & Kate would be in the "same boat" as Nadya if not for the "exploitation of the Gosselin children" we all know no such thing. That might be your opinion or speculation (which I personally consider to uninformed and prejudiced). My speculation (which I don't insist everyone agree with) is that most likely if there were not a show, Jon would be working an IT job, Kate would be working a nursing job, and the kids would be spending a lot of hours in daycare.

Kaitlin said...

Kate and the Octomom are both selfish and narcissitic. We all know that, but some of us choose not to see it.

Anya said...

Kaitlin said...
Kate and the Octomom are both selfish and narcissitic. We all know that, but some of us choose not to see it.


Once again, Kaitlin, we don't "all know that." This is your opinion. Others can have a different opinion and it doesn't mean we have blinders on. It means that we have a different opinion. That's all...

Eileen said...

The question about making Kate a bad person if she felt threatened by Nadya Suleman wasn't directed at me, but I do think put that way it would be a normal response for anyone who is afraid of losing the spotlight, if they enjoy the spotlight that is, to be nervous about losing it. So, I can see that as a reasonable speculation on Ruthy's part. My opinion is that most of our opinions on another's actions (especially Jon, Kate, and Nadya) are all conjecture as we can't get into the heart, mind, or soul of another.
And I think many of us use off-hand remarks or flippant phrases when trying to make a point the way Ruthy did. I know I've been guilty of that.
And we all (myself included) use polite words when we're responding to each other, but the tone is often sarcastic and mocking. I know it's hard to tell if that was intended or not, but that's how it comes off sometimes. That's just my opinion. And I'm really not trying to be sarcastic here with that observation.

Fanny said...

Fact and opinion are two different things. We all know that, but some of us choose not to see it.

Kaitlin said...

We don't know that Jon would be working an IT job, nor do we know that Kate would be working as a nurse. It looks like Jon can't hold done a job (from his work history)and no one wants to work with Kate.

It is very obvious that Kate and Jon would rather exploit their children, than have a REAL job.

ruthy said...

Guinevere,

Thanks for the grammar correction. It's great that the blog manager is willing to correct and point out your mistakes. My son has a paper due next week. Would you be willing to correct it?

Anya said...

Eileen said...My opinion is that most of our opinions on another's actions (especially Jon, Kate, and Nadya) are all conjecture as we can't get into the heart, mind, or soul of another.

Well said....

Anya said...

Kaitlin said...no one wants to work with Kate.

I don't know. On the face of it, it seems LOTS of people want to 'work' with Kate - Figure 8, K-Mart, TLC, P&G, Zondervan, numerous talk shows, etc...

Kaitlin said...

My education is a PH.D. in Human Behavior. So I see people for what they REALLY are, not for what they PRETEND to be.

Eileen said...

Thank you, Anya.
I think a lot of the problem lies with many of us wanting to get our opinion across so we state our opinion as fact, and we don't preface it with "In my opinion". Please be patient with us. Thanks.

Guinevere said...

Kate and the Octomom are both selfish and narcissitic. We all know that, but some of us choose not to see it.

Just saying it doesn't make it so. Again, if you had any confidence in your opinion you wouldn't feel the need to insist that everyone agrees with you.

We don't know that Jon would be working an IT job, nor do we know that Kate would be working as a nurse. It looks like Jon can't hold done a job (from his work history)and no one wants to work with Kate.

Contrary to what some people think, we really do want to hear from all sides of the Gosselin debate here. Speaking for myself only, I find it depressing that there seems to be such a dearth of actual fact-based arguments from "the other side". The fact that Jon lost two jobs does not mean that he can't hold a job - I know plenty of people who have been laid off or fired from more than one job and still been successful and able to "hold a job".

"No one wants to work with Kate" appears to be something you have just made up. Unless you have any evidence (please!) supporting that statement?

Saint said...

Yesterday Fiona asked if I thought Kate was nervous on Dr. Phil. I see it's come up again today. I didn't see "nervousness" but I agree she wasn't her "usual self." I've thought about it, and I think it was due to the change in setting. On her show, or in an interview with itchy children along, she is in charge and more forthright. On the Dr. Phil show, she seemed more soft-spoken. She wasn't her "in charge" self. I think that was the difference I noticed.

Anyone agree?

Anya said...

Kaitlin said...My education is a PH.D. in Human Behavior. So I see people for what they REALLY are, not for what they PRETEND to be.

Good for you, but your *opinion* (that all you have presented so far) carries no more weight than any other poster on this board with me...

Saint said...

Kaitlin said...
My education is a PH.D. in Human Behavior. So I see people for what they REALLY are, not for what they PRETEND to be.


Then you must realize how you come across to some of us reading this thread with this type of statement, right? You KNOW what I am thinking, don't you?

Guinevere said...

Thanks for the grammar correction. It's great that the blog manager is willing to correct and point out your mistakes. My son has a paper due next week. Would you be willing to correct it?

Ruthy, I went back and read what I said and I don't believe I corrected your grammar. I've learned the hard way that doing that is a good way to make a mistake oneself!

I did make a point about people using logic and factual statements to argue their case, because I personally think it makes for a better discussion. Appeals to emotion just seem to get everyone worked up and arguing past each other.

I have been snarky with you but I'm really not trying to be a bitch. I just don't have a huge desire to be diplomatic with posters who seem to be twisting Kate's behavior right off the bat. I wouldn't expect someone to take me seriously if I came in and said, "Kate was obviously nervous on Dr. Phil because she was thinking about all of the hungry puppies in the world." It's not a reasonable interpretation, and it reveals kind of an extreme bias.

I think a lot of the problem lies with many of us wanting to get our opinion across so we state our opinion as fact, and we don't preface it with "In my opinion". Please be patient with us. Thanks.

I don't feel like every statement needs to be prefaced that way. I tend to say "I think..." a lot, but I think (heh) *most* of the time most of us are capable of distinguishing fact from opinion. When someone specifically says, "everybody knows Kate hates unicorns, they just won't admit it", they are, again IMO being deliberately provocative, or they just aren't very bright.

My education is a PH.D. in Human Behavior. So I see people for what they REALLY are, not for what they PRETEND to be.

Oy. Physician, heal thyself.

Eileen said...

I think most of you are way beyond my lame brain. I'm definitely not book smart and I never did well in school. You could easily all talk circles around me. I'm a (barely made it through) high school graduate so I'm not really comfortable putting my thoughts in writing and many times things don't come out sounding the way I mean it to sound. Seriously, I have a nervous stomach just writing this now.
I like reading everything though and I will continue to do that. It's a very interesting website.

Anya said...

Eileen, don't sell yourself short. All your posts have made sense to me and added to the conversation.

I'd much rather have you contribute than someone else waving their alleged degrees in our face.

IMHO said...

A PhD in blah blah blah does not mean one automatically has self confidence and common sense. How does a PhD mean you know more about the Gosselins than anyone else who posts here? It also does not mean your opinion means any more than mine or anyone else's on this board. The fact that you spouted off your educational resume indicates, in my opinion, that you feel even less secure about your own opinions than before you let us know how educationally superior you are. Congratulations.

Kaitlin said...

IMHO,

Who are you to tell me what my feelings are? I don't feel less secure about anyhthing.

Jon and Kate are liars about plenty of things. That is a FACT, not an opinion.

My degree helps me to see the Gosselin on a much higher level than just lay people. I could go on forever here trying to explain what is really happening with Jon and Kate.

Kate's family is second to her book tours and all her talking engagements. She is never home.

Kuromi said...

Saint, I haven't seen the Dr. Phil episode (anyone know if it's online anywhere?). But what you said RE Kate's behavior reminded me of her appearance on Say Yes To The Dress.

She seemed rather meek and not as assertive as she is on her own show. She even looked scandalized when a saleslady joked that she would offer the designer "favors" to alter a dress to Kate's liking.

Nina Bell said...

Kuromi

I was just looking at his web site. It looks like they want $30 to purchase the video and the transcript.

IMHO said...

You just admitted that they're your feelings, and your feelings are not fact. Nobody's are.

And who are you to tell anyone what Jon and Kate's feelings/motives/etc are?

You don't need a degree to call someone a fancy name like a liar. My two-year-old niece can call someone a liar; she doesn't have a PhD. See what I'm getting at here? See that? It's called logic? Did you learn that in PhD school?

I'm sorry that you feel the need to use your PhD to analyze a reality television show. I honestly hope you are doing more with it than that. And I'm sorry that you feel like you know more about that television show than anyone else because of your degree.

"My dad is a plumber." I guarantee that statement has as much credibility to people on this board as does, "I have a PhD in HUMAN BEHAVIOR."

And based upon your high-level writing skills, I bet your dissertation was fantastic. Would love to read it sometime.

Sandra said...

If Jon and Kate and their children are being made rich as a result of the shameless exploitation of their persoanl lives, why shouldn't an even more shameless unwed mother of 14 not be permitted to cash in?

Is she not entitled to be rewarded for her efforts? Wouldn't this be fair in light of what she's gone through?

Too Funny said...

If you really had a PH.D. in Human Behavior then you most certainly should know that, first and foremost, you NEVER analyze someone over the Internet and/or off of TV. You simply CANNOT make such comments and conclusions about someone without FIRST knowing that person on a more personal and private level.

PH.D my arse! LMAO! Good try!!!

Anya said...

Saint said...
Yesterday Fiona asked if I thought Kate was nervous on Dr. Phil. I see it's come up again today. I didn't see "nervousness" but I agree she wasn't her "usual self." I've thought about it, and I think it was due to the change in setting. On her show, or in an interview with itchy children along, she is in charge and more forthright. On the Dr. Phil show, she seemed more soft-spoken. She wasn't her "in charge" self. I think that was the difference I noticed.

Anyone agree?


Still haven't seen Dr. Phil, but I think your supposition makes sense. Even though she has done many of these interviews by now, as you said, typically the children are around so it is a different dynamic.

It's kind of like the difference between being the hostess or a guest. Not a perfect analogy, but my point is it is different when the spotlight is focused just on *you*.

Anya said...

Sandra said...If Jon and Kate and their children are being made rich as a result of the shameless exploitation of their persoanl lives, why shouldn't an even more shameless unwed mother of 14 not be permitted to cash in?

Is she not entitled to be rewarded for her efforts? Wouldn't this be fair in light of what she's gone through?


I wish both the Suleman and Gosselin families the very best. Their children deserve that. I can't understand why anyone wouldn't feel the same way.

I am not in charge of their lives and they can pursue whatever opportunities come their way.

Hatred is caustic and will eat *you* up from the inside.

mariel said...

There is NO difference between Kate and the Octomom.

I find it hilarious that someone with a PhD in human behavior would declare 2 people to be exactly the same by saying there is "NO difference" between them.

Kate's family is second to her book tours and all her talking engagements. She is never home.

Kate is never home...except when she's home.

Kate and the Octomom are both selfish and narcissitic. We all know that, but some of us choose not to see it.

You do realize that stating an opinion as fact and insisting that those who don't share your opinion simply "choose not to see it" sounds somewhat narcissistic right? You must with your PhD and all.

Guinevere said...

I wish both the Suleman and Gosselin families the very best. Their children deserve that. I can't understand why anyone wouldn't feel the same way.

I am not in charge of their lives and they can pursue whatever opportunities come their way.

Hatred is caustic and will eat *you* up from the inside.


You said it all, far better than I could. Brava!

Kaitlin said...

Sandra,

Great comment! The Octomom should have every right that Jon and Kate have. That would be fair. The Octomom deserves a free tummy tuck also. I hope that someone offers it to her.

Saint said...

Eileen said...I like reading everything though and I will continue to do that. It's a very interesting website.

You write clearly and well. I hope you stay around.

Saint said...

Anya,
Your analogy between being the hostess and the guest is very good. That's what I meant about Kate being different when we are so used to "Kate just being Kate."

Kuromi,
I missed Kate's "Say Yes to the Dress" appearance, but your description seems like the Dr. Phil appearance. She was meeker, softer, than usual. I thought her demeanor was appropriate.

Kaitlin said...

IMHO,

You would just love my thesis, and I would love for you to read it. Where should I send it to?

Nina Bell said...

Kaitlin

Feel free to email it here and we will post it.

lulubae said...

Kaitlin, without being disrespectful, I myself am a Doctoral Candidate in Clinical Psychology right smack in the middle of her dissertation. I'm sorry to say that your assertation that:

My degree helps me to see the Gosselin on a much higher level than just lay people. I could go on forever here trying to explain what is really happening with Jon and Kate.

frightens me. I've been in school for five years and I still can't read people's minds. I can form educated hypothesis about situations that I witness on tv, but there is no way that I can validate or speak of them as "absolute truths" without having contact with people. That's why

Clearly you should know that context plays a huge role in the "realities" we are privy to when dealing with clients/patients. And in this situation, we are only privy to 22 hours of edited television. IMHO, not enough to even begin to make guesses as to the true nature of these people. I can't deny I form opinions about the things we are allowed to "see" on tv, but I'm *very* reluctant to make blind generalizations.

Jenn said...

And from what I understand, that is the last thing CPS will do, they always work to keep the family together. I hope so anyway.

February 12, 2009 11:02 AM


CPS will always try to keep the family together first. Even if they have to remove a child the goal is still to reunite the family, when possible.


Even if CPS did take any of the oct-babies, their main goal would be to reunite those babies back with their family.

Theresa said...

IMHO said...
A PhD in blah blah blah does not mean one automatically has self confidence and common sense. How does a PhD mean you know more about the Gosselins than anyone else who posts here? It also does not mean your opinion means any more than mine or anyone else's on this board. The fact that you spouted off your educational resume indicates, in my opinion, that you feel even less secure about your own opinions than before you let us know how educationally superior you are. Congratulations.

February 12, 2009 3:07 PM

Bingo! Well said IMHO.

Guinevere, Anya, lulubae, IMHO and Mariel--great handling and responses to the doc.

Katilin-as a professional, you do understand what these women are saying and understand how your personal opinions are just that? There's no creedence to it, just because you throw out your degree. And why is it that if you have a PH.D. in human behavior, that you are so angry? Have you analyzed yourself? Let us know when you know that answer.

Kaitlin and even ruthy--if anything, take Anya's advice...Hatred is caustic and will eat *you* up from the inside.

February 12, 2009 4:34 PM

IMHO said...

Eileen,
I don't think book smarts has anything to do with one's opinion of the show. You are just as entitled as anyone else to write your thoughts. And I personally like reading your thoughts. I think the fact that you are so forthright shows that you are open-minded and don't expect everyone and their mothers to agree with you.

I feel like a lot of haters associate credibility with education. They consistently claim that supporters of the show are uneducated and are, thus, not able to have valid opinions. One does not need an education to have an opinion on that show. I think they use the whole education argument as a way to downplay their jealousy. In other words, "I'm educated; therefore, I can't possibly be jealous." Or they use the education card to cover up their insecurities about the fact that they aren't educated, which can be easily done on the Internet when you are basically just a username. But again, education has nothing to do with it. I'm educated in a technology-related field. I can troubleshoot a computer, but that doesn't mean my arguments about the show are any more valid than the checkout lady who bagged my groceries last night.

Regarding Kaitlin, her opinions are still valid regardless whether or not I agree with them. I just wish she'd support her arguments with more than saying she has a PhD or by focusing on easy things like tummy tucks and book tours.

Wow, I rambled. Love this site.

JerseyGirl said...

You would just love my thesis, and I would love for you to read it. Where should I send it to?

Did the thesis come in yet? I'm hoping this doesn't take as long as its taking "Jessica" to write her article about what awful parents J&K are.

Nina Bell said...

I haven't received anything yet.

Lizabeth said...

Joann Killeen is no longer working with Nadya...

http://www.kesq.com/Global/story.asp?S=9845502&nav=9qrx

Looks like things got so awful that her PR group decided 2 weeks free representation was all they could give. Good for them getting out before something bad happened to Nadya... I think they realized as much as they want the public to gain a more balanced perspective on Nadya and her choices, it was a losing battle.

People are going to feel how they want to feel-- we can do nothing to change or stop that. All anyone can do is (to quote someone far smarter than me) just keep our little corner of the world clean.

jan said...

Words of Wisdom from Kaitlen:
We don't know that Jon would be working an IT job, nor do we know that Kate would be working as a nurse. It looks like Jon can't hold done a job (from his work history)and no one wants to work with Kate.

It is very obvious that Kate and Jon would rather exploit their children, than have a REAL job.


And you know that Jon can't hold down (the correct word is "down" not "done"...a PhD?) a job....HOW?

And you know that no one wants to work with Kate....HOW?

And you don't think raising 8 children is a REAL job?!!!! And you have a PhD???

Your statements would be like one saying that those that stay in school for a PhD in Behavior (roll eyes) is just a cop out from real work. What does that add up to? About $40,000 - $50,000 a year?

IMHO your degree is not worth the paper it's written on if you don't have enough common sense to quit flaunting it when making unsubstantiated remarks like what's quoted above.

Saint said...

Thanks for the link, Lizabeth :)

Death threats? For heaven's sake, what is wrong with people? I am happy the police are involved (even though I am afraid of policemen, lol!)

I didn't know the MacCaughey septuplets had a talent agent who arranged book and music deals for them.

spanglish said...

According to this story, Suleman has hired Wes Yoder, whose agency is billed as the country's "oldest Christian-based talent agency".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090214/ap_on_re_us/octuplets

Yoder also represented the McCaughey family.