By Anya
So far, this week isn’t bringing the minute-by-minute breathless revelations about the Gosselin family that the last couple of weeks brought, but that hasn’t stopped the tabloid press and weekly entertainment shows from trying to drum up stories. Tonight a very nice woman named Candi Wingate of Nannies4Hire.com appeared on Entertainment Tonight and shared her vast experience working with the Gosselins for a brief period a year and half ago. Yawn. Sorry. Time for some Red Bull.
Folks hoping for an appearance from Jenny or Not-A-Nanny were disappointed, but were able to satisfy themselves with yet another appearance by Kevin and Jodi Kreider on Radar Online. Yawn. Sorry, guess that Red Bull hasn’t kicked in yet! Today, everyone’s favorite in-laws focused on a story that Jon told them about a “secret marriage contract.” The whole thing sounds absurd to me, but I’d like to hear what you all think. And on a purely shallow note, for all the people who complain about Kate’s hair, can we not agree that Kevin’s part in the middle is not working and Jodi could really use some product to curb the frizz?
85 comments:
Jodi/Kevin claim that this alleged open marriage contract, allowing Jon girlfriends, happened six months ago when Kate told Jon that the marriage was over. But then, they claim that Jon came to them "recently," all upset that Kate might be having an affair.
Why would Jon be upset about Kate's alleged infidelity if they had a contract that allowed them both to have romances with other people? Does not add up at all.
Maybe the Kreiders should have spent the time not used to groom their hair to get their story straight.
I am sorry, but IMO, all of this RadarOnline business with Jodi and Kevin actually end up taking a little of the heat off of Jon and Kate.
I cannot begin to imagine the collective pain in the Kreider family now that Kevin and Jodi have launched their self-righteous campaign.
With family like that, who needs enemies?? In releasing the statements they released, it's hard to believe that they will ever have a healthy future with their nieces and nephews one day. That IMHO just adds to the tragedy of the entire situation.
Even though your Red Bull didn't kick in and you were yawning on the Nanny4hire director, I thought her testimony was good. Especially after the stupid hype ET had on last night declaring the tape of J&K's marriage that talks about where there marriage is and here it turns out to be the last interview on the Interview Couch last season where Kate says they're at different levels.
Enough of the stupid reports on their marriage. Let them deal with it on their own.
Jodi and Kevin have shown their true colors.... Their calculated timing, paired with words from GWOP, show them for what they really are... disgruntled and jealous relatives who are no longer part of the Gosselins' lives and after their inappropriate tell-all interviews, never will be. So much for being concerned about the children. These two could not POSSIBLY care about the children if they could trash the parents as they have. They have shown their true colors to gain their moment in front of the camera.
BTW, Anya, Kate's hair looks great compared to Kevin's...
No one knows what goes on behind closed doors - I don't believe Jodi/Kevin and I don't believe J&K. IMO, I think it's alot of hype for their next season - something is just hinky about this whole thing and the timing. I would hate to think J&K did all this for ratings but.... I just do not think Kate needed to go to People magazine - this is private! Good grief - she went on the defensive before anything came out about her alleged cheating and the cover?? Whatever - I think the only thing to stop this mess is to just stop watching and hopefully this family can get back to what really matters - their family, those beautiful children. On another note - why did they have a belated b-day party in a public water park for the tups b-day and why not celebrate it at home, with all that land and PRIVACY - Kate was home that weekend, there are pictures of her in PA that weekend so she wasn't on tour. I just think it was pretty tacky to have a huge party just for the show so it could be taped in a public park with everything that's been going on - - I just think they don't have the children's best interest in mind right now. They could have taped it on their own property and at least been able to control the tabloid stalkers. Oh well - just my 2 cents.
I like Kate's hair, it's fun, it's funky and it's ridiculous that she is picked apart about it. It's her hair for goodness sake! I just got really tired of people on the "other" board bashing her hair, he style of clothes, her tanning, her nails, her parenting skills. In my opinion she's gorgeous and well put together. The best money can buy. And why not?? And more importantly, who cares??
As for the nanny thing, I missed it. Doesn't sound like it was anything to write home about.
Kevin and Jodi made total idiots out of themselves for going on television and saying what they did. It was just completely ridiculous and I find it hard to believe there was a secret marriage contract. That sounds so National Enquirish!
There is strife in the marriage, it has been acknowledged, but, the only reason the Kreider's spoke up was to tear Kate down and for the money. That's the only reasons I can see for their appearance.
Ugh.
Is it just me or does it seem that even though Jodi and Kevin came out of the woodwork for whatever reason, their presence in the press really hasn't been all that blown out. It seems the press is focusing more on just Jon and Kate and not so much on this taped interview. I think mainstream press' reaction to that is telling. Seems like they're not lending it credibility somehow? IDK. But I for one am tired of the whole thing.
And I live in the tropics, I'd be happy to recommend some reliable anti-frizz products! ;)
When Kate wears her hair a little more smoothed like on the people cover, I actually really like it.
Spikey way...not so much.
Just cuz I know you wanted to know
my opinion on her hair. LOL :)
I guess it could all be a ratings ploy, but I tend to doubt it because of the kind of fans Kate has. Yes, I know there are some people who hate her and watch the show anyway because they thrive off the controversy, but I think the majority of the people who buy her books and go to the appearances are people who draw inspiration from her, her marriage, and her life with eight kids, and her faith. I think the draw for them is seeing her keep it all together(on film anyway) and painting her as this devious person who only cares about money could really turn them off. No doubt TLC will use what they can to their advantage, but if they just wanted to stir things up for ratings, there are a million different ways they could have gone without making the two of them look bad.
And about the hair, Anya, didn't you know? Getting your hair done by a stylist=selfish, money whore, while crappy self styling=humility, sainthood, and mad parenting skills.
On Kate's hair, in "In-touch" magazine, vol. 21(8) 5/25/2009 page 77 - they have a "how to get the trend right" comparing hair dos and who gets it right and who gets it wrong. They compare Kate and Halle Berry, short cuts need balance - Halle is a Do and Kate is a Don't. To quote the magazine, "Halle Berry's bob has the versatility to be straight or curly. To give it a modern twist, it's disconnected in the front where the length is longer," says Cutler, adding that Kate Gosselin's cut "looks like it's coming out of a bad-hair show. The crown is too short for the front and has no balance."
Just figured I'd let you all know that even now the magazines are starting to get on the Kate hair bandwagon. Unbelieveable....
i don't think i even care anymore. they can self-implode with one less viewer.
This whole thing is just disgusting. From Kate wanting to handle this privately and then announcing to People that they might split up to Jon showing such disregard and disrespect for people that he "loves" to Kevin and Jodi giving such horrible interviews about their own family members all under the guise of helping the children. It is just horrifying, and I guess not really new, how the demise of a relationship and a family can be called entertainment.
Usmagazine.com has an interview with the state paid nurse that was there for the first year. Not very kind, that's for sure.
Yep, I agree the video was a reach and not very relevant.
Who cares about Kevin's part or Jodi's hair? Has this turned into GWOP? I sure hope not, and it really wasn't worth mentioning and I think on the same level as KON, Greedlins and the like! Sheesh! Gotta get a blow in I guess. OK, i am done. Anya, i am surprised you stooped to this and reprimand whoever it was for the KON and Katie Irene.
I actually believe a bigger story will be breaking. From Kevin and Jodi maybe.
illinoismom- i have to agree. i left GWOp to get away from hair remarks and other such fodder.
Illinois Mom, etc.
No offense meant. Hair is the least of my gripes with Kevin and Jodi Kreider.
It was fun to point out something to the folks who have spent months and months degrading Kate's physical appearance, but it WAS juvenile on my part.
I promise no more 'hair talk' from me! Actually, let's just agree to not discuss it further.
Anya
Sounds good!
so now that jodi has gone public, why hasn't julie reposted all of her stories from when she first started her blog?
I was thinking maybe Jon went to Kevin/Jodi with the story of the secret contract to see if Jon and Kate could still trust them like a test which they failed or they wanted to see who was leaking information to the media. I could be talking out of my butt but when you get famous your inner circle gets smaller so maybe Jon wanted to know who he could trust. Just thinking out loud.
The contract was six months ago (November 2008?) but the show has gone on. Do you think having the contract is why Jon was out in early winter and photgraphed? Maybe it was an acceptance of the contract rule and a "I give up" stance. Maybe they continued filming as if nothing had changed but the photos leaked and they had to address that end of Season 4? I thought Jon looked really angry in the last interview and I wonder if it was because he got caught but for contractual reasons he could not speak about the "contract" that allowed him to step out on Kate. Maybe he was angry because she and TLC were never going to admit it? I don't know. It is interesting. Wonder if we will ever know. One thing I do know is TLC is not giving away the store and these gossip shows and magazines are never going to get a "scoop" from them. TLC will get all those juicy ratings. Besides if the shows had anything real, it would be the "big story" of the night, not 20 minutes into the program.And with all this b'day talk, how do we know they did not have a private celebration at home the weekend before? We don't live in their house and if it was private, we would not know about it or see pictures. The park b'day was for the show, maybe the real celebration was at home. Seems like US is not Gosselin-friendly and they dig around in the dirt more.
Weed, you're not the first to suggest that alot of the brouhaha is all part of a plan to blow ratings sky-high for the new seasons premiere. And I'll admit, a part of me has thought this too.
I'm wondering: Do you think the plan goes so deeply that even Kevin/Jodi are actually in on it? Or that the Gs/their PR folks/TLC are deliberately poking the crazy, and deliberately escalating rumours to stratospheric levels? (Maybe someone secretly working on behalf of the Gs suggested to Radar and Star that the Kreiders might be willing sources, for example.)
Or, maybe Camp G had nothing to do with the negativity and are now just stoking it because it will result in ratings?
Then again, Fanny makes a good point: This kind of attention goes against everything that most Kate fans believe in, so it would seem self-destructive to create spectacle at such a cost.
If hair was talked about 24/7, I too would want a reprieve. But I actually thought Anya's comment was snarkily funny (and I agreed!).
A little levity here and there is fine by me!
Jenn,
I wondered that as well.
I always thought it was odd she even took down the old posts to begin with.
Quiltart, you pointed out the biggest downside of Jodi & Kevin adding their voices to the media din: they made it likely that they will never be a part of the Gosselin kids' lives. And that's where they could have done the most good: as a potential safe harbor in the future. That's done, smashed to bits.
The media is like a contagion. It infects everyone it touches.
I'm trying to figure out how Kevin and Jodi actually visualized this working out, what they actually thought was going to happen. Jon and Kate would shape up and fall on their knees in thanks for the public reprimand? SO unlikely that I can't buy that Kevin and Jodi actually had that in their heads. The show would be destroyed by the bad publicity? I think that's more likely to be one of the Kreiders' motivation, but it just seems naive. As lulubae pointed out, the media has taken everything it's been given and just celebrated the juicy, tasty scandalousness of it all.
I can't see that that does anything but increase exposure for the show. Nielsens should be interesting to look at next week. Just like, after all of the 'shock' and 'outrage' about Brad Pitt throwing over JA for AJ, Brangelina are bigger stars than ever. What exactly was the point of all of the garment-rending and moralizing that the (mostly tabloid) media did over Brad and Angelina, when that same media is just going to end up worshiping at their celebrity altar afterward?
The biggest lie that Jodi and Kevin are either telling us, or telling themselves, is that what they did will 'help the children'. Now Kate and Jon and Kevin and Jodi are all property of the media, and therefore belong less to the people everybody claims to care so much about: the kids. If Kevin and Jodi want to say that the kids have less of their mom and dad because of tv and fame and the media, they need to put themselves in that same statement. The kids can see their mom and dad and their aunt and uncle on the cover of all the tabloids.
When they grow up, they won't remember Aunt Jodi, the aunt who baked goodies with them, and played games with them. They will remember the lady who told the world that, yes, the STAR and the ENQUIRER were right, their mom and dad were cheating on each other. Not only did Jodi and Kevin verify the tabloids' assertions, they also gave their stamp of approval to the tabloids' way of operating, their stalking, their pursuit of any and all private information, at whatever cost.
Kuromi, I agree. A lot of inconsistencies. It could just be the way Radar has pieced the interview together. And by the way, I am not too impressed with that. It seems each new video includes 1/2 stuff Jodi & Kevin have already said and 1/2 new stuff. Or is just me? Has all this stuff just become a jumble in my brain? Time for more Red Bull!
I do think Jodi & Kevin would have benefited from being able to tell their 'story' in a linear fashion, but, of course, Radar's goal is to have us all tune in everyday to see if there is a new video up.
Lulabae, I would love some recommendations on anti-frizz products. My natural hair is somewhat like Jodi's actually.
Trish, I agree. I liked Kate's hair on the People cover. I don't love the spikey thing, but it's not my head.
And I promised no more hair talk. Shame on me!
Themrs,
Do you get away from such fodder on the other blogs that you frequent?
It doesn't seem to bother you elsewhere. Different standards?
I have had a revelation!Are you ready for this?
I was reading the comments on GWOP and one comment really struck me. Someone said how it's funny that although each Jodi and Kevin snippet is quoted as a "new interview" on Radar Online they clearly taped it all in one sitting...hence the same clothes, hair etc. But yet, they released the interview in small segments within a day or so apart from each other AND on Julie's blog she is asking her readers for "patience and understanding" ....see where this is going?
RATINGS!!!
If Jodi was my sister and was already "revealing" all to the press then I would consider that a green light to get things off my chest if I so felt desired...I feel Julie is stringing her readers along just like Jodi and Kevin are....until the start of the show.
I think they have completely pulled the wool over the GWOPers.
Tyra, rock on. I agree with everything you said and how you put it.
I'd like to get caught up, when you have a chance, can you email me at:
kittyb68@gmail.com
* * * * *
Oh, and IndianPrincess, your theory may not be completely off-base. Honestly, I am not sure what to believe any more. Despite what others think, I don't discount all of the negative stuff written about Kate. For example, I think I am finally going to give in and acknowledge she wouldn't accept the un-matching cribs from her dad. Does it make her a monster, nope. A prima donna, perhaps. I just cannot believe this "secret contract" stuff, however. It would have been a foolish action to take and it just doesn't ring true. If I have to eat these words later, I will, but I am not buying it for one second at this point.
I'm normally a reader, not a poster. But a friend forwarded this from a serious Hollywood business website (not like TMZ, Radar, etc.) Interesting point of view about the Gosselin media circus and its larger implications.
http://www.thewrap.com/blog-entry/jon-kate-beginning-end-genre3190
OK, too funny about the "butt" part in Kevin's hair. I actually giggled out loud. I have thought that for awhile.
Just saw the new cover of National Enquirer. Don't usually buy it but might have to now. It says J&K are in therapy. If this is true, then we know what the big news will be on the premiere.
I may be naive but I find it hard to believe that the whole thing is a publicity stunt. The show already got great ratings. I do not think Jon and Kate are the types of people who would seek out the kind of notoriety they are now getting. Though I find it hard to believe that *anyone* would, so again, I may be naive (after all, we live in a world d-list stars "accidently" release their own sex tapes for the attention it brings them).
However, I do not think it's fair to go from speculating about the possibility that J&K are part of some stunt to condemning them for it, as I've seen some posters do. It's fair IMO to judge Kate for talking to People magazine but not fair to judge her for something that we have no evidence of and are only guessing about.
Can someone please explain to me why it would be okay for J&K or TLC for that matter to be doing this for publicity for their new season. It is just totally sick if it is a publicity stunt. Kate needs to stop playing the victim and start actually protecting her kids from this nonsense.
tulip- if you read my comment you would see that i said i don't frequent those blogs because of the fodder.
Karyn said...
I'm normally a reader, not a poster. But a friend forwarded this from a serious Hollywood business website (not like TMZ, Radar, etc.) Interesting point of view about the Gosselin media circus and its larger implications.
http://www.thewrap.com/blog-entry/jon-kate-beginning-end-genre3190
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I read the article and I do believe that more people than ever are going to tune in...I thing this whole thing has worked to their rating advantage.
As I stated in my previous post...the GWOPers are keeping J&K's name out there...they analyze every photograph and video clip to check for abuse and/or inconsistencies...they even come back and report their findings complete with the timestamp on said videos...they search for and publish any links related to the J&K controversy, they contribute to a large amount of comments on said forums and news postings....they are piquing an otherwise clueless audience's interest.
You can be sure:
1)More are going to tune in to SEE if the kids are being "abused".
2)They are going to look to SEE any signs of strain between J&K
3)They ate going to look to SEE proof that Jon lives above the garage
4)They want to SEE proof of Kate's diva attitude
5)They need to SEE more freebies so they can complain about them....
SEE where this is going? J&K's PR team is very clever...they are catering to the haters.....that is their target audience right now.
...and they make fun of fans who enjoy the show such as BabyMama but yet they too are watching with their shades pulled down LOOKING for.....proof of what they feel is going on?
I'm no longer a fan but this all makes sense to me now.
I'm not condemning them....I think their PR Team is actually quite clever.
CincyMom said...
"If hair was talked about 24/7, I too would want a reprieve. But I actually thought Anya's comment was snarkily funny (and I agreed!).
A little levity here and there is fine by me!"
ITA.Gwop only gets picked on for it because they claim to be concerned for the kids yet spend most of their time ragging on her mom over petty things. I find shaming someone(on their blog, no less) for one personal observation to be incredibly tacky. Kudos to Anya, she handled it better than I would have.
themrs said...
tulip- if you read my comment you would see that i said i don't frequent those blogs because of the fodder.the mrs- good for you for staying away from those hateful places!
MrsRef said...Can someone please explain to me why it would be okay for J&K or TLC for that matter to be doing this for publicity for their new season. ------
Mrs.Ref: I can't explain it to you because I don't think that would be "right" either, especially if Kate or Jon were directly involved.
I know some have speculated that, both on this site and others. I think the opinion of most is that if Jon and Kate were conspiring with TLC in this way, we would be disappointed. Perhaps someone else here has a different view, but I don't really think it would be the prevalent view on this site.
Also, Mrs.Ref, I had a quick question for you I'd prefer to discuss off-line. Would you mind emailing me at: kittyb68@gmail.com. Thank you!
Fanny, thanks for having my back! Appreciated. :-)
Can someone please explain to me why it would be okay for J&K or TLC for that matter to be doing this for publicity for their new season. It is just totally sick if it is a publicity stunt. Kate needs to stop playing the victim and start actually protecting her kids from this nonsense.I can't. I don't think anyone has said it's okay. Except maybe Momof2? (If I'm understanding her comments correctly.)
But again, I guess I just don't understand criticizing them for something that we have no evidence that they are doing. Nor do I understand singling out Kate for criticism when they are both the parents of these children. But those have been my issues with the Gosselins' critics since the very beginning, I guess.
Guinevere said...
Can someone please explain to me why it would be okay for J&K or TLC for that matter to be doing this for publicity for their new season. It is just totally sick if it is a publicity stunt. Kate needs to stop playing the victim and start actually protecting her kids from this nonsense.I can't. I don't think anyone has said it's okay. Except maybe Momof2? (If I'm understanding her comments correctly.)
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I'm not saying it's OK..I'm just saying that's what I think is happening. I still think it's one hot mess.
I'm not saying it's OK..I'm just saying that's what I think is happening. I still think it's one hot mess.Okay. I was just thinking of what you said above: "I'm not condemning them....I think their PR Team is actually quite clever."
I suppose it would be clever but if it truly were a PR stunt that would be beyond the bounds of decent behavior on the parts of everyone involved, IMO - including the PR folks.
But I don't really think it's a PR stunt. If there is any germ of truth to the PR angle, it may simply be that there are people looking at this mess and trying to find a way to turn the negatives of the situations into positives. That's what PR people frequently have to do, I would imagine.
However, I do not think it's fair to go from speculating about the possibility that J&K are part of some stunt to condemning them for it, as I've seen some posters do. Well, I know Mrs Ref and I have speculated about that and we're in line first to condemn them (all of them) if it turns out to be true.
I acknowledge that the marital problems may be true. I also wonder if the problems are true and TLC is just capitalizing on it?
It leaves a bad taste in my mouth no matter what.
I can't believe that Jon and Kate are complicit in a PR stunt.
That be like Survivor arranging for Rob and Amber to "fall in love"--for ratings.
I think reality shows are accountable for keeping up with the members that are on the show. By that, if something goes on--they have to weigh whether or not to cover it or now. A number of factors go into figuring out what makes an episode and what makes the cutting room floor.
I don't think it is fair for anyone to reach a conclusion on their opinions without seeing the first show of the season.
The show is the Gosselin platform. We've seen it many times for any "gate" story--there are reasons why Kate's less maternal moments are shown often. (stresses of being a sextuplet mom is the overall theme of the show after all.)
What woman would want to watch a mom of six behave perfectly?
(or the exact opposite--letting her kids run wild? I tried to watch the other sextuplet show and I just couldn't do it--the family, though to many may be normal--gets on my last nerve with the behavior of the kids.)
Figure 8 has a huge task at hand and a lot as at stake. They fowl it up--they risk losing their viewerbase and the show will just collapse into ratings oblivion.
Remember-shows don't stay around out of the good nature of the producers. They require viewership in order to sell their ad slots.
This season premier can break the snow if the producers do not handle it APPROPRIATELY.
I do not know what the definition of appropriate is in this case. I just know that ignoring it--would be very bad.
I would like to comment on the nanny going on national tv to talk about a very private matter.
to me, she did her company a great disservice in violating the privacy of her clients, talking about them publicly.
yet another example of someone out for themselves (trying to get business for their nanny service) by exploiting the privacy of the children.
who would ever use this service, knowing they have no respect whatsoever for the privacy of their clients?
so wrong!
Kuromi - Jon only came to them recently to disclose the information about the contract.
He did not immediately run over to their house and say "look, Kate just had me sign this contract!"
the moment it happened.
He's just now coming forward to them with all this - obviously he is at his wits end and is pleading for help to try to save his children from this horrid invasion of privacy and oogling by grown men with cameras and big, scary microphones.
(pics from the b-day party - mostly big grown men with cameras, hardly any playmates - - that's just gross and scary for a little girl!!)
Look, everyone is on the same side - it's obvious.
Jon, Kevin & Jodi, likely Beth, the former babysitters, Kate's whole family.
Not one person (friend, relative) has come forward to say one positive thing about Kate.
No one has that many enemies.
Unless they are not normal and she is not normal.
Let's just pray that she will come to her senses and learn to love her children and want to be with them again.
And understand they need privacy.
No one should be watching that show anymore - if you really care about those children.
It's pure exploitation at this point and there is no question about that.
We all know it is and we owe it to those children to say "thanks for the memories" - but here is your life back.
Knowing what we all know and continuing to watch would be just sick.
I'm just going to look at my cute little kids faces and thank the Lord everyday we protect them and let them feel safe and secure and have their privacy.
I know I'm going to catch heat for saying this, but I just watched the Jodi/Kevin video's and I actually believe what they're saying is true when they talk about why they aren't on the show, and how Kate really isn't who she portrays on the show. Big shocker that she has tons of help! Like we all didn't know that. What I don't completely believe is the information given to them by Jon. It's very likely he could spin his side of the story anyway against Kate and they would eat it up. She is an easy target. At the end of the day it's a very typical scenario of a marriage gone bad and families taking sides. What makes it disappointing to me, is that neither parent has said, "wait a minute, our family life is a mess, let's stop the filming and take care of our kids." I just would have so much more respect for them. That being said, I don't believe these children are "destroyed for life", but definitely scarred in some way. Either way, I will definitely NOT being watching. I am the type of person who says a little prayer and looks the other way when there's a car accident on the highway. Although I can't stop reading this blog!
If Jodi and Kevin were really concerned about the kids, why didn't they hook up with Paul Petersen? They say they want the "authorities" to do something. He could probably point them to a more reputable outlet for their concern.
I haven't heard them mention any specific problems they have seen with the kids being filmed. Nobody can legislate how much time parents spend with their kids, or how much baking and laundry they do, or if they fight.
Those issues could be there if they didn't have a show. To talk about them is just airing dirty family laundry and takes away from the issue of kids and reality shows.
Massmom said: What makes it disappointing to me, is that neither parent has said, "wait a minute, our family life is a mess, let's stop the filming and take care of our kids." I just would have so much more respect for them.
*******
I totally agree with this! Kate says in the People article that ending the show is not the answer, but I think it would be a huge first step. This family needs to step out of the spotlight and get some counseling in order to save themselves. Unfortunately, it's clear that Kate is more concerned about money and fame than making things right. Her statements in the People article make that very clear.
travismitchell224 said...
Kuromi - Jon only came to them recently to disclose the information about the contract.
He did not immediately run over to their house and say "look, Kate just had me sign this contract!"
the moment it happened.
He's just now coming forward to them with all this - obviously he is at his wits end and is pleading for help to try to save his children from this horrid invasion of privacy and oogling by grown men with cameras and big, scary microphones.I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. If Jon was just trying to save his kids from the Oh so eeevil Kate, why would he go along with the contract in the first place? They may have a contract with TLC to do the show, but it can't hold them to a marriage. My guess, if the contract thing is true, is that he did it for the same reason she did, the money. I think it's possible, if it's true, that Jon is only bringing it up now because he's been caught and is trying to take Kate down with him.
Jon is not helpless, he could have made these changes before if that's what he really wanted. I get a little tired of the Kate-made-him-do-it defense.
- obviously he is at his wits end and is pleading for help to try to save his children from this horrid invasion of privacy and oogling by grown men with cameras and big, scary microphones.
Yea, I don't see it this way either. He has been apart of this since the beginning, talking about marketing his family. I think he wants a more "normal" life. I think he is tired of being a SAHD, and even more so, I think he is tired of his marriage with Kate.
Wish it was about the kids privacy, strange men in and out of their lives.
Sadly, I don't believe so.
apparently i've missed something- when did dr. phil get involved? are they going on his show or something?
TravisMitchell: The fact that Jon "just came to them" with info about the contract is my point!
Why would he be upset about Kate having an affair, if they've had this contract for many months that allows them to have affairs? That's the inconsistency. If they did have this contract, then cheating would NOT be an issue.
Or maybe you think that the contract only allowed Jon to have an affair? And that this is somehow fair to Kate and unfair to Jon?
I must say, even though I do believe Jodi and Kevin, I still think it's totally immature and selfish of them to say these things publicly. I silently endured the WORST sister-in-law for 12 years because I loved her kids dearly!
massmom, you may have been silent about your sil because she wasn't exploiting them (hopefully).
From what I understand, Kevin and Jodi threw up red flags long, long ago and few people listened.
And they remained respectfully silent.
As they have watched things grow far worse than imaginable, they could no longer stay silent for the sake of the children.
I admire them greatly for breaking their silence, because people like myself are now advocates for those children.
If it were not for them, alot of this would be swept under the rug and the children would continue to be exploited and in danger from primarily, their mom's, reckless attitude.
I think all this crept up on Jon and we have watched him actually say he does NOT want to do the show and I truly believe he wants to protect his children.
Obviously, it is not that easy for him alone to stop the train wreck.
Just because Kate offered him a contract saying he could cheat doesn't mean he signed it.
Remember, these episodes are normally shot months in advance, so him suspecting her of cheating may go back many, many months.
I don't think it's right for either party, but if she's going to throw him under the bus, I can certainly see why he's out defending himself.
He's the one staying home caring for this children.
There is no question about that.
(and btw, we don't know this, but he could very well be meeting with an attorney right now on gaining full custody of the children and having kate pay child support - as she seems to enjoy being away from home peddling her books).
Let's just pray that she will come to her senses and learn to love her children and want to be with them again.That's an extremely presumptuous statement. I don't believe for a moment that Kate doesn't love her children or "want to be with them". She may be misguided but I do believe that she's writing the books for her kids- I think she's trying to make what she can for them, while she can.
As they have watched things grow far worse than imaginable, they could no longer stay silent for the sake of the children.
I admire them greatly for breaking their silence, because people like myself are now advocates for those children.Kevin and Jodi were paid to speak- radaronline pays for their stories. If they were doing this "for the children" they would have chosen another outlet and focused on things that are actually important and relevant to the situation- not the fact that Kate doesn't bake or fold her laundry. The interview was filled with catty banter disguised as noble intentions. I will believe the bit about the "contract" when it comes from Jon, not until.
Samantha,
Please tell us what "other" outlets and avenues you suggest they try.
Radar confirmed they did NOT pay for the interviews, so perhaps they went to them BECAUSE they were not being paid.
You don't know the facts, but if you have a great suggestion of what a loving family is to do to help these kids when plenty of adults (TLC, the production company, sponsors, etc.) are NOT doing anything to protect the kids, please fill us in.
It's not like this just happened.
Kevin and Jodi raised the red flag months and months ago.
Sadly, people are too busy invading the children's privacy (buying books with their picture and other such gross gestures) and watching their tv show while cameras are all up in their faces (look at the pics from their recent b-day party - more grown men with cameras - at least six and boom mikes than playmates -- too sad beyond words) to do anything about it.
People can't have it both ways - saying TLC only showed the evil side of kate on the show while only showing the angelic side of jodi.
it is what it is - even kate admits that.
and jodi was also soft-spoken, kind, gentle and loving.
kate is not -- and anybody can see that.
and i'm only expressing my opinion - my definition of love for children is not have half-dozen GROWN MEN with CAMERAS all up in my kid's faces and business while I'm off for 20 days of a month promoting them to total strangers.
that's just gross to me and NOT love.
But - i concede - our definition of love and safety and protection for our children may be different.
At this point, I could care less whether or not Kevin and Jodi are telling the truth. What they have done disgusts me. They do not care about anyone but themselves... They are out to get Kate... Plain and Simple!
They don't love those kids, they hate that they didn't get a piece of the pie...
Again, whether their story is true or not, is completely irrelevant IMO.
Does anyone know what their financial situation is? Is it possible that Kevin lost his job and they are doing this for money? I am not trying to start rumors... I am just having a terrible time understanding what possessed them to "come out" now.
Radar confirmed they did NOT pay for the interviews, so perhaps they went to them BECAUSE they were not being paid.
Very interesting! Mind pointing me to where you saw this information???
I think it's terribly disappointing that Jodi & Kevin spent possibly half a day discussing their inside understanding regarding the authorship of "Multiple Blessings", their disaproval of Kate's lack of laundry folding and their third-hand knowledge of Kate's possible infidelity and didn't receive one red cent! Knowing how much this information will help the Gosselin kids is its own reward I guess....
You don't know the facts, but if you have a great suggestion of what a loving family is to do to help these kids when plenty of adults (TLC, the production company, sponsors, etc.) are NOT doing anything to protect the kids, please fill us in.I don't know the facts but you do? Everything you stated you presented as fact and I can assure you I am not the only one who found it sickening. As far as filling "us" in- who are you again? You just showed up here to jump in on the controversy when the rest of "us" have been here for months and months. Don't pit me against a group you are not a part of. I don't care what radar has "confirmed" I don't buy it.
Sadly, people are too busy invading the children's privacy (buying books with their picture and other such gross gestures)Buying a book with a child's picture is a gross gesture? I can't even wrap my brain around the warped psyche that goes there. Do you have to steer clear of all television shows, magazines, books, movies that feature children?
People can't have it both ways - saying TLC only showed the evil side of kate on the show while only showing the angelic side of jodi.
it is what it is - even kate admits that.
and jodi was also soft-spoken, kind, gentle and loving.
kate is not -- and anybody can see that.
I don't believe they showed only the bad side of Kate- I saw plenty of good. I liked Jodi a lot- until this. If you truly believe that Jodi and Kevin are advocating for the children- as you claim to (what have you done again?) your version of advocacy is skewed at best. What revelations did they share exactly? The only thing they shared that we didn't know - and again I will believe it when Jon confirms it- is about the marital "contract". If that's true how does it benefit the children? It doesn't. It only spurs more gossip. This whole thing comes from the fact that Kate didn't want them to be paid for appearing on the show- something I personally took huge issue with. However the way they have chosen to "get back" is unacceptable.
But - i concede - our definition of love and safety and protection for our children may be different.DO NOT suggest that I don't love and protect my child- my child is my top priority and there is nothing I wouldn't do for her. I protect her fiercely and always will. I am not in love with Kate - for many reasons. But I do believe it is their right to choose (some act as if Jon has had no say in any of this) what is right for them. Do I believe the show should end? Yes. Do I believe that Kate doesn't love her children? Not for a moment.
Travis said... "I admire them greatly for breaking their silence, because people like myself are now advocates for those children." Puleez, get over yourself. I have been blogging about the Gosselins for a year and if I had a dollar for every time a poster claimed to be a child advocate, I would be touring Europe right now - not responding to another sanctimonious, speculation-filled Kate-hate post.
News flash: you and your ilk are not, I repeat, NOT "child advocates" simply because you blog about the Gosselins.
Previous Post: "But I do believe it is their right to choose (some act as if Jon has had no say in any of this) what is right for them. Do I believe the show should end? Yes. Do I believe that Kate doesn't love her children? Not for a moment."
That's a huge contradition in and of itself.
Pure and Simple.
CHILDREN EXPLOITATION = NON-LOVE.
There is just NO way of getting around it.
You danced around what you would suggest Kevin and Jodi do.
Hmmm....apparantly you have no thoughts - and even when you are corrected you state you choose NOT to believe the facts.
Can't help you there.
I have done my own research on this and everyone has to do their own - can't do it for you.
But as a mother and yes - child advocate - we have done plenty.
Starting with contacting those who may be able to do something - NOT watching the show or TLC and not purchasing products endorsed by the family, etc.
That's just for starters.
I'm sorry - but we will not stand by and tolerate the exploitation of those innocent, precious children.
And yes! It's is disgusting that people would fawn all over children that are not their own that way.
It's one thing to think they're cute or whatever - but the way people have been talking about them and buying books, dvd's etc - yes! It's disturbing.
When people become obsessed -- that is a problem.
In fact - horrible things happen to children put in the spotlight all the time.
(girl from dancing with stars - gymnast - was stalked by a pyscho -- and she is an olympic gymnast - someone with TALENT -- not a child her parents plastered all over the internet and tv. another young actress was stalked and shot dead on her doorstep - but she was an actress -- with TALENT. her parents didn't just use her for money and invade her privacy.)
if you don't get that -- then you have real problems.
There is plenty one can do to advocate for the safety of these children -- and THANK YOU KEVIN and JODI for DOING THE RIGHT THING and speaking out.
Your loving actions speak volumes!
Bless you, Bless you, Bless you
You danced around what you would suggest Kevin and Jodi do.A thousand pardons. I took such issue with of much of your rant I left something out.
I suggest they stay out of online tabloids- I suggest they stop blathering on about how Kate can't bake and she doesn't do it all herself- something anyone who has watched the show already knows. Hello? Bev, Nana Janet, Carla, Jennie, Beth, Jodi, cleaning lady...... ring a bell?
You danced around my question- what have Kevin and Jodi clued us in on that benefits the children? Where did you find out that radar online dind't pay them? You are the one who is dancing.
Hmmm....apparantly you have no thoughts - and even when you are corrected you state you choose NOT to believe the facts.You have presented me with no "facts"- you refuse to provide a link to radar's confirmation. But kudos to you for patting yourself on the back.
THANK YOU KEVIN and JODI for DOING THE RIGHT THING and speaking out.
Your loving actions speak volumes!Yes Kevin and Jodi, thank you so much for being so "loving" and taking a personal vendetta to public forum on a gossip site, thank you for cashing in on marital problems, thank you so much! Your actions do indeed speak volumes.
On a side note- are you as concerned for the Duggers? The Roloffs? I doubt it.
Please tell us what "other" outlets and avenues you suggest they try.They could have contacted Paul Petersen. They could have come forward on Julie's website and spoken in a specific and substantive way about how they believe the show is negatively affecting the kids. Instead, they gave an interview to an online gossip site, the content of what we've seen so far being made up almost entirely of malicious gossip about Kate (often secondhand gossip, at that) and completely unrelated to the well-being of the Gosselin children.
You don't know the facts, but if you have a great suggestion of what a loving family is to do to help these kids when plenty of adults (TLC, the production company, sponsors, etc.) are NOT doing anything to protect the kids, please fill us in.Not knowing the facts allows one's imagination to have free rein; I learned that from GWOP (for instance, yesterday I found out that Kate *might* try to poison Jon and that she's JUST LIKE Drew Peterson! A little "Now You Know" moment courtesy of GWOP. Thanks, GWOP!). It's a little late for Gosselin detractors to start insisting on facts, I think.
It's not like this just happened. Kevin and Jodi raised the red flag months and months ago.
Sadly, people are too busy invading the children's privacy (buying books with their picture and other such gross gestures) and watching their tv show while cameras are all up in their faces (look at the pics from their recent b-day party - more grown men with cameras - at least six and boom mikes than playmates -- too sad beyond words) to do anything about it.Maybe instead of or in addition to the "gross" book buying, the people have been working on environmental causes, issues of hunger and poverty in America, social inequity, war and the exploitation of women and children in any number of places in the world. What some people seem to consider the Most! Gross! Injustice! Ever! doesn't even register on other people's radar. Not because they are monsters but because they see the world differently from you.
People can't have it both ways - saying TLC only showed the evil side of kate on the show while only showing the angelic side of jodi.Have people said that? The show is Jon & Kate + Eight, not Jon, Kate and Jodi + Eight. Jodi had a much smaller role on the show, and yes, she did come off much "nicer" (whatever that means) than Kate when she was on. Her actions in the past weeks have shown another side to her, IMO.
But it's interesting that you mention that "people can't have it both ways" - I've often thought that about those who talk about "how AWFUL Kate is on the show" but then trumpet any mention of her "not being like she is on the show". Which is it? Is she awful on the show, or only behind the scenes?
it is what it is - even kate admits that.
and jodi was also soft-spoken, kind, gentle and loving.
kate is not -- and anybody can see that.Kate is frequently kind, gentle and loving with her kids. Not always, but frequently, from what I've seen.
and i'm only expressing my opinion - my definition of love for children is not have half-dozen GROWN MEN with CAMERAS all up in my kid's faces and business while I'm off for 20 days of a month promoting them to total strangers.
that's just gross to me and NOT love.And to me, it's not showing love for the kids to trash their mother in the media. I think THAT'S gross.
Samantha --- I am paying it forward (thanks again Fanny)--- I got your back!!!
Wait a minute, I just read your tell-it-like-is post. You don't need me at all.
Travis said: When people become obsessed -- that is a problem...........
I just knew you and I were destined to agree on something - yes, you are correct, obsession is a problem. Got a mirror?
You go, Samantha! I agree with every word you've written!
IMHO, Jodi and Kevin's mention of the children appeared as an afterthought in their first interview. Child advocacy, my eye! All they want is Kate's blood! Vindictiveness is not attractive in anyone.
What do the child advocates do?
"obviously he is at his wits end and is pleading for help to try to save his children from this horrid invasion of privacy and oogling by grown men with cameras and big, scary microphones.
(pics from the b-day party - mostly big grown men with cameras, hardly any playmates - - that's just gross and scary for a little girl!!)"
Seriously? The kids know those "big grown men" and have usually seemed happy to have them around. I've never seen them act afraid of them or their scary booms. They are professionals, after all, not a bunch of perverts dragged in off the street. I think it's creepy to suggest that the photographers are "oogling" them, or that the little girls should be afraid of them because they are "grown men".
And they remained respectfully silent.Jodi & Kevin remained respectfully silent? They did no such thing.
They funneled information about the family to her sister who posted it on the internet. This is the 2nd video Jodi has participated in lest we forget the one in which Julie made a brief cameo appearance.
That is respectfully silent?
Wow!
On a side note- are you as concerned for the Duggers? The Roloffs? I doubt it.Travis, you conveniently neglected to answer this very important question. Does your "advocacy" extend only to the Gosselins, or do your concerns also cover the other TLC families? I find it amazing, that only the Gosselins are considered "exploiters" when the Duggars, Roloffs, and Hayes families are doing exactly the same thing. Do they get a free pass simply because Kate Gosselin is not their mother?
Someone asked if GWOP'ers also try to get the Duggars, Roloffs, etc off the air. While I do believe that ALL reality shows featuring children should be either taken down or very strictly regulated, I and many others focus on the Gosselins. Why? They are the most prominent. This season they're scheduled for over 40 shows. When do the children get a break? The Gosselin children have often been showed semi-naked or on the toilet. That's simply disgusting. The one episode of the Hayes's show that I watched also had one of the children in the bathroom, and I will no longer watch the show for that reason. The Duggars have never had anything like that, nor have the Roloffs. In addition, the Roloff children are all older, and have lives other than the show. The Gosselins very rarely, if ever, have schoolmates over to play or go to their houses. Their life is the show. What sort of childhood is that, where your life is a television show and you have no privacy? Truman Show anyone?
hi, i've been reading this discussion and i think the duggars and other kids are different because the duggars protect the little ones and their parents don't sell pictures of them.
that seems very unseemly to me.
i think it's totally weird to sell pictures of your underage children and i have to agree with travism on that one.
also, their mother's are generally seen with the children not running all over the country selling their pictures in churches, women's fairs along with the picture book of them.
it all seems really weird.
like, i have several children and as adorable as they are, i just love them to bits and i could not for a second imagine doing that to them.
i would never want a stranger with their pictures, let alone actually paying for it.
i find that hard to even write, it's so weird and turns my stomach (my children are very little - oh how i adore them!...sorry off on a tangent!)
the other parents also seem very, very protective of thier children's privacy. i don't remmeber seeing the duggar children pooping on national tv.
also, the only kids you really see talking are the older ones who probably actually have a say in what is allowed to be filmed of their lives.
i'm glad you mentioned the duggars, i do love that show!
the parents are so loving and careful about what is shown of their precious little ones.
that's not the case with the gosselins.
the big difference is, most people in the public eye do everything in their power to protect their children from prying eyes.
i can think of no other person who subjects their very tiny little ones to such an invasion.
my prayers are with the family.
i hope they are able to stay together and turn off the tv cameras.
it's not worth it.
lots of folks have 6, 7 even 10 kids (our neighbors have NINE!) and they all manage fine.
it's cool their sextuplets, but there is no novelty in large families. it's very common when you think about it. people keep saying how are they going to support them. well, like every other large family. you work and love and protect your children.
let's pray they do the same.
The Gosselins very rarely, if ever, have schoolmates over to play or go to their houses. Excuse me, but how do you know this? There have been several instances when the children's friends have been mentioned or the fact that they are at a friend's house is mentioned. At last weekend's birthday party, Jon said that they had invited school friends to their party this year. Just because you don't see something on the show, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
The children in the other family are in front of cameras whether they speak on camera or not. Yes, they are older, but that doesn't mean they are being "protected by their parents." I can't count the number of times the Roloff children have spoken disrespectfully to their parents, or bothered to clean up their rooms. The Duggars are a whole other story.
Just as I thought, there is a double standard in reality TV. One standard is for the Gosselins, and then there is everyone else.
How can you call yourselves child advocates when you are not concerned with ALL children?
Do the chld advocates realize that if they enact laws about kids being on reality shows, they will apply to all kids, not just the Gosselins? If it's bad for one family it's bad for all of them, not just the one with the mother you don't like.
The Duggars hand out pictures of their family. I don't see a big difference whether they charge or not. The Duggar kids don't go to anyone else's home either, as far as we have seen. Of course they do spend a lot of time with their "schoolmates".
It's interesting that someone would just not watch the Hayes family again, after seeing something they don't like. Why are people not able to do this with the Gosselins? I have seen many things on the Hayes' show that Kate would get raked over the coals for, yet people are strangely silent about it. The TWoP thread is practically nonexistent, and the GWoP spin-off site seems to have been abandoned.
The Hayes kids have made a Ragu commercial, but nobody complains.
They showed all ten kids at the dentist, including the girl with cerebral palsy. One of the twelve year old boys was shown crying, because he had to have a baby tooth extracted ( I felt bad for them showing this), and the ten year old boy whined that he had an upset stomach afterward, so his mother let him skip the rest of school that day. Yet nobody says a word, because they are such a nice "real" couple.
And all the families have big grown men with scary booms following them.
luvmykids said...
hi, i've been reading this discussion and i think the duggars and other kids are different because the duggars protect the little ones and their parents don't sell pictures of them.
that seems very unseemly to me.
i think it's totally weird to sell pictures of your underage children and i have to agree with travism on that one.No, the Duggars don't sell photos of their children, but they did stand on a street corner in Times Square, New York City, and give their children's photos away to anyone who wanted them. Is that okay?
Also, their mother's are generally seen with the children not running all over the country selling their pictures in churches, women's fairs along with the picture book of them. The Duggars and the Roloff also give motivational speeches all over the country and they also have books on sale about their family.
The other parents also seem very, very protective of their children's privacy. i don't remmeber seeing the duggar children pooping on national tv.And since they have been toilet trained and out of diapers you have not seen the Gosselin children pooping on national TV either.
The Gosselin children are loved by their parents just as much as the other parents love theirs. I don't know how you can say otherwise?....
Open your eyes! The Gosselin children are not being abused or neglected and they are not unloved... except in the fertile imaginations of the GWOPers and their misguided followers.
Samantha NC Said: You danced around my question- what have Kevin and Jodi clued us in on that benefits the children? Where did you find out that radar online dind't pay them? You are the one who is dancing.
Samantha, Is there a link that says that they WERE paid?
So sorry you have a headache dear- they can be a real nuisance.
It is common knowledge that tabloids and online tabloids pay for interviews- though often under the guise of something else, pictures etc. I am not the one that stated that Radar online "confirmed" anything- travis did. She/He said Radar online "confirmed" they were not paid - so again, if that is true show me that confirmation and I will apologize profusely. If you say something has been confirmed- do you really expect not to be asked for the info? Give me a break.
" She may be misguided but I do believe that she's writing the books for her kids- I think she's trying to make what she can for them, while she can."
--
Yes, I think she is terribly misguided and I wish I thought she was doing it for her kids, but I don't! I think she loves the limelight and the attention, and she is doing this for herself.
As far as the Jodi and Kevin crap, I will believe they were paid until I hear otherwise. IMO, they are the sleaziest of all because if you believe them, they have been withholding information for a long time. And number two, they went to a gossip site.
And whoever mentioned they could have shared all of this on Julie's blog?!?!? They did, and then it got removed, and now it is back up!
Make up your mind Kreider's, what is it going to be next week? Rubish, all of it!
Samantha,
I do agree with quite a lot of your post to travis who is clearly over here from GWoP trying to sell his/her spiel.
But on one account I will say that GWoP, while a hate site has brougtht much attention to something that has been needed to be looked at for a long time. If if helps the Gosselin kids, the Duggar's, Roloff's or Haye's kids in the long run, then I think it will be worth it.
kate can dust herself off and keep going. She has said so herself, "she will not lay down and die". Don't worry about her, worry about her kids and the unasked for attention that is upon them.
It isn't who is right or wrong here-it is about what is best for all of the kids involved in reality TV.
FWIW, Radaronline.com is owned by the same company that owns the Enquirer and Star. They pay for their stories. I has been published that they paid Nadya Suleman's mother $40K for her story. It stands to reason that the Kreiders did not go to Radaronline out of the goodness of their hearts. I am quite confident that they were paid. Unfortunately, their halos have slipped.
So what was the Kreider's real motive?
Was there any good behind it?
Was it to help Jon?
The kids?
I keep trying to get my head around the whole thing, and I get no where.
I don' think the Jodi/Kevin nonsense did anything but tell a lot of people what they already knew. I hope they were not paid much for it because it wasn't worth the money,IMHO.
Sometimes I want to stand on top of a mountain and yell:
ALL children who participate in reality based shows deserve to be protected by laws, equal to those in place for child actors. What needs to be enforced is the hours that they are working and the conditions under which they work. Income received needs to be held in trust for them.
ALL CHILDREN. PERIOD.
Thank you, as I hop off my little soapbox now....
Illinois Mom -
I agree with you that GWOP did bring attention to the issue of child stars in reality shows not having the same legal protections as other child actors.
If it would have been their sole focus then I'd support them 150 %, but they took the wrong off-ramp when they allowed comments about . . .
the size of Ks rear, Js lack of man-berries, and the kids' futures as drug dealers, psych patients, murderers, etc.
I had always hoped that Julie didn't know about those comments and that is why she still associated with GWOP given the really filthy things that were allowed to be posted about the kids.
Except she admitted that she DID know about them, that she thought that they were okay because they were to (paraphrasing here) for the sake of letting off steam or humor.
HUH?
IMO, GWOP is also guilty of using those kids . . . they post filth to get extra hits on their stat counter . . . It doesn't exactly help those kids, so I have to wonder why?
I'm not exactly sure. Maybe it is about feeding the egos of the founders and moderators of GWOP. Maybe it is an example of a good intention gone terribly wrong. Come to think of it these sound a lot like their accusations against the parents.
This whole train wreck is a lot about adults behaving badly and I'd put J&K Gosselin, K&J Kreider, Julie, Serena and Sharla in that group as well.
=========
On another note, if what K&J are saying is true that J came to THEM with his concerns about K knowing full well that they funneled information to Julie then to me that is as big of a betrayal as his late-night visits to bars with his non-girlfriend school teacher.
Linda,
I agree with everything you said. Has it done more harm then good? I guess I don't know the answer to that.
I watched the very first episode last night on the marathon. It is fun, and sweet, unpretintious, and then TLC would show a promo of the season opener. YUCK!
Originally signed up for that 'other' blog but was disturbed to find that some members were posting sham superfan comments on the TLC kate blog. Way over the top and a bit too zealous in their hate of Kate. Hope it backfires and those posts are taken as 'real' ones! Anyhow, happy to have found this site where posters seem to have normal pro and con opinions that are freely expressed.
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