I have to chuckle at the comments like "the little kids want to find out where they were born." or "the 4 years olds want us to continue with the show." I guess my kids were delayed when they were 4 because we never had discussions like that! HA! I don't blame J&K, I know it is PR and production coming up with these statements but don't they know their demographics? A bunch of moms know growth and development 101.....:)
Normally after watching the show, I try to guess what GWoP will say. This week, I don't even want to go over there. I was actually touched by this episode and I'm rarely touched by a reality show. If anything, this episode showed that Jon and Kate are human. They have flaws sure, but you can't fake the emotions that Kate had. Agree with them or don't....but they love their kids...that I'm certain of.
I watched tonight's episode. I have to remark that you could really tell about the stress that they were under probably the first two years of the kids life with just taking care of the bare necessities of feeding, changing, comforting, etc. all of those babies let alone trying to deal with the needs of Cara and Mady.
I've read people criticizing them for not paying it forward but they were really under constant demands when those kids were young.
I remember, especiallly with my older son who is kind of high needs and high energy, how I didn't really feel like I was able to enjoy life until he was about 4. When he was 3, I had a very complex pregnancy that happily resulted in a very healthy baby, but that time in my life was not very fun. I really didn't have much energy to pay it forward either and I didn't have six babies.
I also felt a little sad when I saw both of them talk about the stress that they are experiencing now. It just made me sad.
I also thought this was a very sweet episode. I felt bad for Kate when she got emotional. I think people constantly bashing her is really getting to her. I can't even imagine having people judge everything that I do as a parent. It's one thing to talk about her hair or her attitude, but to say that she is a bad parent and doesn't love her children is a whole other issue!
Leave it up to GWOP to take a photo of the TV to show what Mady wrote about no cameras in the bathroom. DUH? And how sick are some that literally only 20 minutes in they already had 50+posts where people were writing down and commenting every thing that was going on, including the camera man who wears the booties in the house. Ohh and you knew when Kate handed over that donation check they were running to the computer to talk about that one. Its become a sickening sport to the haters of that show and its so sad. I thought the show tonight was wonderful. Having just recently had a child of my own, I know how wonderful it is to go back and reminisce.
And of course, she did give back tonight and that will, I'm sure be bashed and called damage control. Nothing at all will convince these people that this woman has a heart. Why? Because she has a TV show that you don't agree with? Because she parents differently than you? Because she didn't abort some of the sextuplets? It's so senseless. I don't even have words....
I was also touched by this episode. I can't imagine what life must have been like for them in the first years. I know how hard it is to have two children. I know that when I had the second, I felt as if I had somehow taken something away from my eldest. I can't imagine how those feelings would be magnified with 6 more children. For the first time in a while I really felt for J+K. I agree that these things that are said about her daily must be getting to her. How could they not? They bother ME.
Against my better judgment, I went over to read the comments about the show on gwop, and sure enough, posted on the front page was the note on mady's door.
Obviously that could have been edited out of the show, and the fact that it wasn't leads me to believe that the producers are also fueling the controversy.
I knew as soon as they showed the note on the bathroom door that GWoP would be on it like white on rice. They're so predictable, grasping at any straw they can. Never mind that this was such a nice episode. Never mind that we got to meet and see the Gosselins pay tribute to the men and woman who brought the sextuplets into the world. And god knows, that check to Ronald McDonald House was for "show." Right? I'd say that if Kate bragged about how much was on the check, but she didn't. She simply handed them a folded check and that was that. Which is as it should be.
It was a nice show. Any mother who went through such a stressful pregnancy and childbirth, would look back and get emotional. I had a friend who's baby was born at just under two pounds and spent a long time in the NICU. It is a heartbreaking place. You DO feel guilty when your child improves, while the baby in the next isolette dies. I can imagine that Jon and Kate did feel guilt as their six improved while parents with only one baby were not so lucky. But, I supposed they're faking that, too, right?
While I'm sure there are very loud cries of "Damage Control" out there in internet land, tonight's episode reaffirmed several opinions about Kate (and Jon) that I had developed.
1. I think Kate genuinely has a good heart, even if she maybe has some issues with appropriately expressing herself or dealing with others. This is a woman who loves her family, and does what she feels is best for them. Would I make the choices she has made? Probably not. I don't know, because I'm not in her shoes. I loved that Kate was willing to show emotion tonight, and that she was brutally honest about how hard the first few years were. That doesn't mean she doesn't love those kids with all of her heart and soul. It doesn't mean she didn't have help. It means that she knows that she was thrown in the reproductive "deep end" of the pool and just barely doggy paddled her way out. But she made it. I don't believe for a second that she ever greedily rubbed her hands together and said "Hey Jon, let's trick our doctor into getting us pregnant with six babies at once. Just think of the cash we could make! Mwhahaha."
2. While I do not agree with all of the choices Jon and Kate have made, I really feel that the financial aspect of this show is a huge motivator behind continuing on with the show. I think Kate admitted that doing it was hard, but I think on some level, she and Jon see it as a way to provide financially for their family, and provide them with the opportunity to not work full time. If I were Jon and had a chance to spend more time at home with my family, would I not at least consider it? The debate is at what cost is that opportunity, but I really feel that this may be part of where they are coming from.
3. I think Kate is just a very fearful person in general. I really feel for her. I think she's so terrified of something happening that it cripples her socially, it motivates her to do something that is causing her stress in order to make sure they are set financially, and it really affects her ability to enjoy many beautiful moments with her family. Just like when they were at the beach. Even though Jon was with the kids, and they weren't in deep, she just couldn't relax and enjoy the time because she's so crippled with fear. I feel for her.
4. Kate is very sentimental. She is determined to create memories, and document them for her family. I don't know if childhood home was rough, or if she's just sentimental by nature. Either way, I love that about her. I truly believe she wants the best for her kids, and is at a loss how to do that without extra help from others.
Just my two cents. I thought overall, this episode was touching. Also, please consider supporting the Ronald McDonald House. It is a very worthwhile cause.
I really loved all of your comments on this episode. I agree with many of you that this episode was touching - I teared up on more than one occasion. It's having a blog like this that celebrates the POSITIVE (while still being balanced enough to discuss the negative like rational adults) about this show - recognizing that it is, at the end of the day, a show, but a show that can be really touching and family-friendly.
Watching Kate give that check to the Ronald McDonald house will certainly get tongues wagging, but it was so clear (to me) that she felt immensely grateful for the home the organization provided to them during what was a truly challenging time and was so glad to finally be able to give back.
Kudos to the Gosselins for really celebrating their family - warts and all.
I just watched the last 40 mins of the episode. I didn't see the "no camera's" sign but good for which ever child put that up, and for the G's to allow it to be put up. Hopefully they are recognizing that some boundries are in order.
Kate's emotion towards the end really made me realize that she's a HUMAN BEING. She has feelings. I'm sure all of this is affecting her stress level, which affects how she treats her family. Perhaps some blame for some of their stress belongs on the shoulders of the people who continue to say hateful, hurtful, mean-spirited things about them. Regardless if she's anything like people say, who are we to judge?
To me the sign is an indication that the kids do have privacy when they ask for it. Now, if Kate would have said "Mady, take that sign down now...you WILL be filmed WHEVEVER I say you are filmed" then that would be an issue.
To me the sign is an indication that the kids do have privacy when they ask for it.
I know but my heart goes out to Mady because who needs to ask for something like that. Feeling safe in your own home should be a given should it not?
About the check - I don't know how to feel. I think that if it were genuine, I don't think that's something that needed to be filmed. My feelings about the show stem from watching week to week and saying "Huh" at the contractions. How many times did Kate say "rare treat" last week? My goodness even bagels are a "rare treat" for them. Come on really.
I was too tired to post last night but I, too, thought it was a touching episode.
Anon 907 - A really nice post.
Anon 10:48 - I pick up on the "rare treat" type comments too. Then I began thinking of all the repeat things I say. Annoying as it may be to hear something over and over, I think it's just K.
Nomore - I am trying not to go over there too. I'm just getting over it already.
Oooops, I forgot, about the check. I do believe the G's are going to be good at giving back. I'm sure the producers just wanted to get it on film. Otherwise, I think Kate would have just passed it on to someone. Also, if Kate really wanted to make a big stink about it, she would have given it to the executive director and invited press there. She just handed it to a staff person and said thank you. I thought that was touching.
I cannot even begin to imagine the amount of stress J&K have been under since they found out they were expecting sextuplets. In Kate's shoes, I would be a bit emotional as well.
First, you have the pregnancy and all of the medical worries with the birth to get through. Second, you have the logistics of taking care of twin girls and six babies. Third, you agree to do a show about your family (IMO, predominantly for financial reasons)and are subsequently crucified for every little thing.
Whether you agree with their decision or not, it takes immense strength to hold up under all of the intense pressure they have been under for almost five years, and they deserve some respect for that.
About the check - I don't know how to feel. I think that if it were genuine, I don't think that's something that needed to be filmed.
Forgive me, anon for picking on your comment, I just think couldn't disagree with you more. If she had gone to Ronald McDonald house and not made a donation on camera, the amount of vile that would be spit at her...unfortunately she is no longer at the point where she can just make a private donation. That being said, the amount she gave was private. So, yes, we did see her give them something but do not know how much.
People like Angelina Jolie, Oprah and other celebrities make public donations all the time and, usually, we know the amount. Is tacky? Would you call it "damage control"? Does Oprah really care about the children in Africa or is she just trying to get positive press? I think sometimes people (not necessarily you, anon) cannot look at the family without doing so through a lens of hatred.
It also just goes to show that nothing Kate or Jon does will ever be looked upon favorably by these haters. I guess my question is, why do you need to feel that way about a person you've never met in your life?
Very touching episode. I had tears in my eyes listening and watching Kate.
I don't even want to go to GWoP to read their comments. Everything is seen as damage control which IMO, is totally unfair!
About the sign - when my kids were Mady's age they sometimes put a note on their door saying "do not enter, unless invited" or "knock, first" or "so and so could not enter" Think it's just part of kids exercising their independence and creating their own space.
About the sign - when my kids were Mady's age they sometimes put a note on their door saying "do not enter, unless invited" or "knock, first" or "so and so could not enter" Think it's just part of kids exercising their independence and creating their own space.
My 7 year old daughter also has a "closed" or "open" sign taped to her door. She has 1 brother so there isn't a whole lot of privacy issues. We always knock on doors before coming in just because that the courtesy we expect them to use with each other. In other words, there really isn't a need for the signs but she wanted them so we let her. Not a big deal.
About the check - I don't know how to feel. I think that if it were genuine, I don't think that's something that needed to be filmed.
After all the accusations that have shown up on certain blogs saying that Jon and Kate just take and never give back? Oh, I think it was necessary. Especially considering Julie is the one spreading that message, since she's all about the money and who's getting it and who's not.
As far as the sign goes, I don't think the filming of said sign had anything to do with privacy issues and accusations of a lack thereof. They showed two signs last night. The one on the bathroom door and a sign in little girls room that said, "Dear Hannah and Leah, we cleaned your room for you. Cara and Mady." Jon joked that they spelled "cleaned" as "clened." I think they were shown because it was cute to see the messy first grade penmanship and misspellings and the fact that the older girls are now at the stage that they are leaving signs and notes everywhere, because they CAN. I'd be willing to be that there's a "NO LITTLE KIDS ALLOWED" sign on the twins bedroom door, now, too.
I knew last night that the check-giving was going to be an issue, and it bothers me because, as people have said, the Gosselins have been specifically blasted for "not giving back." To which I always thought, how do you know? I mean, I'm sure the GWoPpers are trying to get access to the Gosselins' tax records, but I think we'd have heard if they had succeeded. So whether they have given to charity in the past or not is pure speculation. But of course, the GWoPpers assume that because we haven't seen it, it hasn't happened. So we do see it, and of course they complain about that. What more proof does anyone need that the Gosselins absolutely cannot win with these people?
Perhaps some blame for some of their stress belongs on the shoulders of the people who continue to say hateful, hurtful, mean-spirited things about them.
I thought it was a really sweet episode but towards the end I was feeling bad because I thought the same thing - I felt like the references Kate made might be to the abuse and stalking directed at them, and the way that outsiders have interfered with their familial relationships (which is not to say that Kate and/or Jodi aren't responsible for the state of their relationship, but there have defintely been other influences as well). I'm sure the guilty parties are in ecstasy over seeing the pain they've caused - that is usually the goal of a stalker, to have some effect on the life of their victim. But it makes me sad and angry.
MCB said... "After all the accusations that have shown up on certain blogs saying that Jon and Kate just take and never give back? Oh, I think it was necessary. Especially considering Julie is the one spreading that message, since she's all about the money and who's getting it and who's not."
Agree. As you and others have said, I kind of think it had to be "public". It's also a nice plug for Ronald McDonald House. I bet a few more folks might think of adding them to their donation list after this episode.
In addition to the "giving back" angle, I also think the donation sends a message to viewers that the Gosselins are doing ok financially. Since certain viewers pick apart everything they say as a plea for more freebies, I think this was a way of saying that their financial situation is much more stable than it was two years ago and they are publically acknowledging that. Yes, I know it's because of the revenue from the show and yes I know they don't have jobs outside the home. Those are separate issues. My point is for those people who felt the Gosselins were trying to "put one over" on viewers as to how their financial situation has changed, this was an open acknowledgement that they have enough money to be able give back.
Its been said that Kate has a good heart. I'm not so sure. I don't believe she's malicious - just too self-absorbed to make much of a parent or much of a friend/neighbour.
I share concern about most of the controversy surrounding the Gosselins. Jon and Kate's estrangement from their extended families, including how Jodi was treated How J&K seem to play favourites among the kids including how Joel is treated, Kate not letting the kids relax and get messy -- and the sexist gender-role stuff they both endlessly cram down the kids' throats. Yuck to it all.
But the rest of the rhetoric floating around cyberspace borders on obsessive hate, if you ask me -- including the conclusions people are jumping to about Mady's sign.
For whatever its worth, I thought the sign was a hoot, and it reminded me of the stuff my own (now 20 year old) daughter came up with at that age. Oh, the drama that can come for a girl when she wants it to. I still have some of my girl's messages and they are hysterical. Mady's sign struck me as both typical and very funny.
I so wish other blogs would stop over-analyzing every gesture and moment, and remember the big issues here. I've tried to say as much while over there, but my comments often don't make it past the censors. Curious.
anna said... "I also thought this was a very sweet episode. I felt bad for Kate when she got emotional. I think people constantly bashing her is really getting to her."
Yeah, I sort of got the same sense. I thought part of her emotion came from reliving what I am sure is still a very poignant time for her, but I also got the sense the 'simplier times' she referenced was the time before she had to face the criticism and barbs she has had to endure. And, of course, the effect the show has had on family relationships. Even though I totally defend J&K's decision to do the show, I think it cannot be ignored that like everything in life, doing the show comes with a price.
When Kate was got teary-eyed, I found myself wishing Jon would give her a hug or at least acknowledge her emotion (her was sitting right next to her, but didn't seem to bat an eye), but my guess is he is just not comfortable with emotion....
When Kate was got teary-eyed, I found myself wishing Jon would give her a hug or at least acknowledge her emotion (her was sitting right next to her, but didn't seem to bat an eye), but my guess is he is just not comfortable with emotion....
Yes, I felt exactly the same way. I agree that he doesn't appear to be comfortable with emotion, but I wish he had made some attempt.
As you and others have said, I kind of think it had to be "public"
I have to say that if Jon and Kate did not "talk" so much about what kind of people they are (Family Mission Statement, etc), this would not be necessary.
I try and give them the benefit of the doubt, but their actions speak so much louder than their words.
I am going to date myself but I was a PA on the one of the first 3 seasons of the Real World. Yes - they edit to the hilt. In the early days of RW, if you don't pay attention, you will notice that people's wardrobe will change in the middle of a conversation. But with that being said - they work with what you give them. For example, in season 3, it would have been impossible to make a villain out of Cory M. She was a very nice person. Her footage reflected nothing but that - in actions and words.
A lot of people say they wouldn't do what Jon and Kate do, but unless you have been in their position, you can't say yea or ney. "The business" is a deceptive one - there is a lot of catering and giving into whims - even on that level. Even the humblest of people get used to the pampering.
I want to say something about this site. I have noticed that when it comes to Jon and Kate - there are a lot of people who give them the benefit of the doubt. Yet other aspects - the anti- Jon and Kate are scrutinized to the hilt.
My take - a lot of things are very contrived. If it feels fake it's because it is. If I watch the Duggars, I can sense their family is very driven by their beliefs - their actions show that. With Jon and Kate? I don't know. Little things pop and believe me, I am not watching, writing down every moment. Sometimes when re-runs are aired, they are aired out of sequence and one thing that is said totally contradicts something that was said episodes ago. Even the couch scenes to me are suspect, I notice Kate looks over at lot at Jon - it just seems like she is making sure he goes along and validates her version of events - like trying to get the story straight.
I don't know, I think people either like them or don't - the ones that don't will see every action or inaction as evidence to their beliefs and those that do like them tend to gloss over them.
Yes, I agree, they are in a Catch-22 position. If they give a donation on camera, they are trying for damage control. If they don't give on camera, and no one knows, it's assumed they are not giving back, and the haters hate them some more. But either way, people have to realize that J&K have put themselves in this position, by the taking and taking with little visible gratitude. It's sad in a way, as there is really no coming back to ground zero, they are too deeply embedded in the greed machine. Not being hateful, it's just true, if they walked on water tomorrow people would still not forget all the hurt they have caused.
QUOTE I don't know, I think people either like them or don't - the ones that don't will see every action or inaction as evidence to their beliefs and those that do like them tend to gloss over them.END OF QUOTE
Reminds me of a plaque my grandmother had on her wall and it says "Love blinds us to faults, hatred to virtues". So true.
I was surprised that the kids were allowed in the NICU. Honestly if I were a parent of a child in there, I would have been upset. If the kids wanted to know where they came from, they could have just driven by the Hershey Medical Center. It was nice that they gave a donation to Ronald McDonald House. It is a very worthy charity that does great work. I didn't get the staying the night in the condo thing though, they live less than 30 minutes from the medical center. To me, it didn't seem to be worth all the packing and planning to do it. Not a Kate fan but I did feel bad for her when she was crying at the end. I just wish she would realize that they bring alot of this on themselves (not blaming the victim). They are just way too over-exposed right now and probably over-extended as well. Just my 2 cents.
I want to say something about this site. I have noticed that when it comes to Jon and Kate - there are a lot of people who give them the benefit of the doubt. Yet other aspects - the anti- Jon and Kate are scrutinized to the hilt.
That may be true. I know, for myself, I'm willing to cut Jodi some slack because I have seen good from her, on the show. Whereas my only experience with Julie has been ugly, negative, inappropriate behavior. So I'm less likely to try to understand or rationalize her actions.
It's the same with certain posters at GWoP - I have not seen ANYTHING good from these people, and I've seen a lot of hypocrisy. So I'm not inclined to take them at their word or believe that they are well-intentioned.
Maybe I should be more willing to give these people the benefit of the doubt, but as you say - I am working with what they are giving me.
But either way, people have to realize that J&K have put themselves in this position, by the taking and taking with little visible gratitude. It's sad in a way, as there is really no coming back to ground zero, they are too deeply embedded in the greed machine. Not being hateful, it's just true, if they walked on water tomorrow people would still not forget all the hurt they have caused.
I would argue that it's not "true" in that it's an opinion, rather than a fact, though I agree that there are people who will judge them no matter what good they do. Where I disagree is that I think this reflects more on those that judge than on J&K. I also don't know "all the hurt they have caused" - if J&K have been jackasses to some people (if you believe various stories), then they may have hurt some people's feelings. And yes, then, they may have to live with those people disliking them.
But I guess I don't understand the phrase "all the hurt they have caused" because it suggests to me some deep pain (other than simple hurt feelings or offense) that the Gosselins have caused to multiple people, and I don't see that. Neither of them has killed anyone.
"I am going to date myself but I was a PA on the one of the first 3 seasons of the Real World. Yes - they edit to the hilt...But with that being said - they work with what you give them."
True. Didn't Heather from Season 1 of the RW say much the same thing? That said, I think many of us on this site who have been painted as "Kate Defenders" have acknowledged (many times)that she has showcased many of her flaws. Do the producer's encourage this? I wouldn't be surprised, but she's giving it to them, whether it's the ridiculous obsession with keeping the kids clean or her other quirks -- she is putting it out there. No doubt. That said, there are some who insist on demonizing her to such an extent that she doesn't even appear human. She is flawed. But, she is also human and she loves her kids deeply. I believe she attempts to do her best for them.
"The business" is a deceptive one -there is a lot of catering and giving into whims - even on that level. Even the humblest of people get used to the pampering."
I have thought the same thing. Not that I believe all the bad behavior attributed to J&K (or even half of it), but if some of it is true, I think it's not unreasonable to assume that they may have been effected by the success of the show and how everything has changed so quickly for them. It must be very hard to stay grounded. I think it would be for me, anyway.
"I don't know, I think people either like them or don't - the ones that don't will see every action or inaction as evidence to their beliefs and those that do like them tend to gloss over them."
I think this is human nature. I have seen it a lot during the recent Presidential election! Once you get behind your "guy" or "gal", you sometimes become invested in protecting your opinion. That said, I think many of the people on this blog *do* have a balanced view of the Gosselins. We do NOT put them on a pedestal. We might "like" certain things about them and "not like" other aspects. We can't agree, however, with many of the tactics used by the anti-Gosselins - the stalking, the picking apart of every freakin thing they do, inserting themselves into family matters, etc. etc.
QUOTE But I guess I don't understand the phrase "all the hurt they have caused" because it suggests to me some deep pain (other than simple hurt feelings or offense) that the Gosselins have caused to multiple people, and I don't see that. Neither of them has killed anyone."
You don't have to kill someone to inflict hurt. In fact, the pain is only temporary. Fact is, hurting someone emotionally, adults and children alike, can cause lifelong pain. I'm sure all the grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins are in deep pain over the alienation, and the children's pain, while not so much now, as they are not aware, will manifest itself deeply in years to come.
You don't have to kill someone to inflict hurt. In fact, the pain is only temporary. Fact is, hurting someone emotionally, adults and children alike, can cause lifelong pain. I'm sure all the grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins are in deep pain over the alienation, and the children's pain, while not so much now, as they are not aware, will manifest itself deeply in years to come.
I think you are assuming that we know that J&K are estranged from all of these relatives, and that in each and every case it was solely J&K's fault. There is often some pain involved in family dynamics; but again, I think the phrase "all the hurt they have caused" is melodramatic, assumes facts not in evidence, and places all the onus on J&K. I also mistook what you said to mean that J&K had "hurt" other people - viewers or the people at GWoP, who after all, are the ones that are judging them so very harshly.
In other words, HE'S A GUY!
Sorry, didn't meant to slip into the dreaded "gender roles!"
I really hate to fall into gender stereotypes, because I know many guys (and women) who do not fit into these stereotypical roles. But I think the stereotypes exist for a reason, and I think Jon actually does fit into the stereotype of a guy who isn't very demonstrative or necessarily sensitive. Since I don't think Kate is a heart and flowers type either, this probably isn't usually a problem. But last night, a little sweetness would've been nice to see.
quote: "You don't have to kill someone to inflict hurt. In fact, the pain is only temporary. Fact is, hurting someone emotionally, adults and children alike, can cause lifelong pain."
This is very true. IMO, Jon and Kate are also being hurt, in their own way. Maybe some of it is self-inflicted (from exposing their life on camera) but some of it is also from the nasty things people are saying in very public places.
Just because people think that Jon and Kate are in the wrong does not given them the right to hurt them with their words.
If Jon and Kate have done some nasty things, then I think karma will take care of that. The same goes for the people who say nasty things; karma will take care of it.
On a somewhat different note, there were a number of cute moments last night:
*Jon waking up Alexis (in her SCARY basement bedroom) and Hannah. Alexis was beyond cute just waking up and Jon was very sweet and gentle with both of them.
*Cara is such a sweetheart. When Aaden was sent away from the NIC unit, Cara came over adjusted his glasses and gave him a pat.
*When they were in the condo and Kate commented to Aaden about how small he was the last time they stayed in the condo, he did a cute little dance around the table.
*Aaden again -- telling Kate she "was pretty" in the parking garage. Awww.
Baby Mama said... Leave it up to GWOP to take a photo of the TV to show what Mady wrote about no cameras in the bathroom.
It wasn't the bathroom door, it was the twins homework room.
jax said... About the sign - when my kids were Mady's age they sometimes put a note on their door saying "do not enter, unless invited" or "knock, first" or "so and so could not enter" Think it's just part of kids exercising their independence and creating their own space.
However the sign wasn't asking for privacy, it was telling the cameras to stay out. Not everyone, not certain people, but the cameras. And it even has picture of a camera with a line drawn through it. And Mady went out of her way to summon the cameraperson to the sign where she then shut the door in their face. If that's not an indication she's so over being filmed I don't know what is.
And this coming on the heels of the official website declaring the entire family chose to continue with the show. Was Mady outvoted or just ignored during the discussion?
"And Mady went out of her way to summon the cameraperson to the sign where she then shut the door in their face. If that's not an indication she's so over being filmed I don't know what is."
Could be, but Mady seems to run hot and cold. (I have a child like her so I can relate). Sometimes it seems like she wants to be the only one in front of the camera, other times(such as this episode), she appears to feel differently.
Assuming the sign was filmed on the day they were getting ready to go to the NIC unit, Kate made it clear in a voiceover that Mady was already unhappy about having to go to the hospital because she considered it another event centered around the sextuplets. She does have jealousy issues, which are completely understandable.
I am glad she feels she can put a sign up and it will be respected. While the request was very specific, I do see some truth in what others are saying that she is at an age where learning to write opens up the world of communication and she is probably (just a guess) putting signs all over the place.
That said, if I were J&K, I would continue to be attentive to changes in the twins and how they are handling both the cameras and the baggage that goes with being on a t.v. show.
To play devil's advocate, does the "fact" that Mady does not want the show to continue mean that the show shouldn't continue?
Don't get me wrong; certainly, I understand and agree with concerns that viewers have about the effect of the show on all of the Gosselin children. I am of no set mind myself, but I wouldn't say conclusively (actually, I don't think I've heard ANYONE say) that the show is absolutely fine and won't have any negative effect on the kids. I think it becomes a matter of weighing pros and cons, and right now, I feel that the situation is such that it should still be the Gosselins' call.
But I also think the happiness and well-being of the children should be taken into consideration (obviously). So, if Mady is not happy with the filming, that would weigh against continuing. BUT, does it necessarily mean that filming should be shut down tomorrow? Even if the other seven kids wanted to continue, and the parents felt that it was in the family's best interest to continue? Should the wishes of one rather capricous 7-year-old be seen as the final say on the matter?
Again, I'm not trying to discount Mady's feelings. But I think sometimes those who believe the show is harmful to the kids can get caught up in looking for those "aha!" moments, forgetting that most 7-year-olds do not have the sort of autonomy over their lives that these people feel the Gosselin children should be given.
Interesting article. I only find it interesting because it says J&K have been there before....wow, once again another thing not shown in TV. Which means that this may not have been the first donation to Ronald McDonald house.
Which means that this may not have been the first donation to Ronald McDonald house.
That may be possible, but I think if this was something she had done before, Kate would have for sure made it know. I think she also mentions how it took them four years to come back and they are in the position now to help.
Okay, wait a minute. Did Mady issue a press release saying that she no longer wants to participate on the show? Or is this another example of GWoPPERs reading into a situation and repeating it enough times so that it now becomes a fact?
Mady, clearly the most moody and demonstrative child in the house, makes no secret when she doesn't want to participate in something, especially something that is centered around the 'tups (birthday parties, Dutch Wonderland ect). The day of the NICU visit, her jealousy was directed at everyone and the camera guys were part of that. She also rudely corrected the doctor when he was talking about how rewarding it was to see that the hard work they do in the NICU results in happy, normal kids. "They're not normal!" she interrupted. Everyone laughed it off, but I saw it as rude, and something I hope J&K addressed with her later. Kids don't interrupt or correct adults, or try to show them up, especially the man who basically saved the lives of her brothers and sisters. Also, the lady that met the Gosselins at the door of the hospital and took them around. Was her name Sarah? At one point, she put her hand on top of Mady's head, as they walked down the hall and Mady jerked her head away and glared at the woman. This woman wasn't a stranger. Kate said this lady was her lifeline for 10 weeks as she was cooped up in the hospital, and the twins were there the whole time. Granted, maybe Mady didn't remember her, but I didn't see it as "hey, that stranger is touching my head." It was "Hey...NOBODY touches my head," which is fine. If she did not want the lady to touch her hair, she could have walked faster not made such a production about it and glared at an adult like that. Mady was clearly having a bad day and taking it out on everyone, not just the cameras. She didn't want the doctor saying anything nice about the tups, she didn't want oatmeal for breakfast, she didn't want the lady touching her hair, and she didn't want the cameras. Unlike Cara, who simply disappears when she doesn't feel like being filmed. Mady Dramatic makes a production out of it. It's who she is.
I saw her behavior as not wanting another day devoted to the tups, not an indictment about the show as a whole. She's seven. She's not that sophisticated yet.
Okay, wait a minute. Did Mady issue a press release saying that she no longer wants to participate on the show? Or is this another example of GWoPPERs reading into a situation and repeating it enough times so that it now becomes a fact?
Why are we discussing this here?
It seems that there are varied opinions here. No one said that the "sign" is an actual "sign" that Mady doesn't want to continue with the show. I want to dicuss the topic on hand - not whats happening elsewhere.
The Ronald McDonald House is an excellent cause. Pediatric cancer research is an excellent cause. So is The Jimmy Fund. It saddened me deeply that Jon did not take the time to support The Jimmy Fund when he spoke in Boston. Instead he sold photos for $20. Too little, too late.
Mady, clearly the most moody and demonstrative child in the house, makes no secret when she doesn't want to participate in something, especially something that is centered around the 'tups (birthday parties, Dutch Wonderland ect). The day of the NICU visit, her jealousy was directed at everyone and the camera guys were part of that. She also rudely corrected the doctor when he was talking about how rewarding it was to see that the hard work they do in the NICU results in happy, normal kids. "They're not normal!" she interrupted. Everyone laughed it off, but I saw it as rude, and something I hope J&K addressed with her later. Kids don't interrupt or correct adults, or try to show them up, especially the man who basically saved the lives of her brothers and sisters. Also, the lady that met the Gosselins at the door of the hospital and took them around. Was her name Sarah? At one point, she put her hand on top of Mady's head, as they walked down the hall and Mady jerked her head away and glared at the woman. This woman wasn't a stranger. Kate said this lady was her lifeline for 10 weeks as she was cooped up in the hospital, and the twins were there the whole time. Granted, maybe Mady didn't remember her, but I didn't see it as "hey, that stranger is touching my head." It was "Hey...NOBODY touches my head," which is fine. If she did not want the lady to touch her hair, she could have walked faster not made such a production about it and glared at an adult like that. Mady was clearly having a bad day and taking it out on everyone, not just the cameras. She didn't want the doctor saying anything nice about the tups, she didn't want oatmeal for breakfast, she didn't want the lady touching her hair, and she didn't want the cameras. Unlike Cara, who simply disappears when she doesn't feel like being filmed. Mady Dramatic makes a production out of it. It's who she is.
I saw her behavior as not wanting another day devoted to the tups, not an indictment about the show as a whole. She's seven. She's not that sophisticated yet.
IIRC there is someone on this board that really takes offense at name-calling - especially when it is directed toward the children. This person even takes offense to the word "brat".
IMO, that whole paragraph if you will, basically boils down to calling Mady a brat.
What I also get from this passage is that we shouldn't too much into Mady's behavior because "Mady's just being Mady". While I agree that Mady regardless of the cameras is more dramatic than her sister, I don't totally discount her feelings either. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned Mady requesting the "cameras" out - not privacy from her siblings. There's a difference.
Tell me, would you think the sign meant something different or would take it more seriously if Cara "the good twin" had written it?
um, anon 6:44, should they give to every fund that is out there? There are millions of charities. Furthermore, how do you know they haven't given to this fund? I'm not even sure what the Jimmy Fund is. Were they even aware of it?
It seems that there are varied opinions here. No one said that the "sign" is an actual "sign" that Mady doesn't want to continue with the show. I want to dicuss the topic on hand - not whats happening elsewhere."
I find these kinds of comments completely childish. We may not always be discussing what YOU may find interesting, but keep in mind that your topic or opinion is of no more importance than that of anyone else here.
And the comment about the Jimmy Fund means nothing to me because I already saw it on gwop. Isn't that sad? Something that very well could be fact and could, in some cases, change the way a person looks at the Gosselins is dismissed with an eyeroll when posted "elsewhere". For me, there is zero credibility there.
I find these kinds of comments completely childish. We may not always be discussing what YOU may find interesting, but keep in mind that your topic or opinion is of no more importance than that of anyone else here.
I was referring to what is being discussed on the other boards.
My comment was made to keep the comments directed to the topic on hand of this board - to refrain from mentioning what is happening elsewhere.
It seems if we cannot come up with a separate line of thinking - then that is more ammunition for the GWoppers, if you will, to say we have nothing interesting to discuss but them.
Sorry if this seemed childish to you, it seemed like a rational request.
I haven't read any of the other comments yet because I didn't want my feelings to be subconsciously or consciouly swayed by the others who have posted here.
I just finished watching this episode from my DVR.
I'm not a crier. I can count on one hand how many times I've cried in the last 10 years. This episode made me tear up (but not a full on cry :) ). You could really see the emotion and turmoil all this has had on Jon and Kate. I feel for them. They took a difficult situation and did the best with it - and I have to say, probably a WAY better job than I could have ever done. I think I would have just lost it if I were either one of them. I wish them and their family the best.
IMO, that whole paragraph if you will, basically boils down to calling Mady a brat.
No. I think YOU just called her a brat. I described her actions as shown on the show last night. YOU inserted the name calling. I refrained. The only thing close to calling her a name was "Mady Dramatic," which is a phrase her mother uses. In fact, she uses it to describer HERSELF on air as well, because Kate also is a Mady Dramatic at times. Putting words in other people's mouths may be a habit at a certain other site, but probably won't get you very far here.
Tell me, would you think the sign meant something different or would take it more seriously if Cara "the good twin" had written it?
Once again, YOU just called Cara "the good twin," I didn't. I said Mady was having a "bad day." You seem to be the one perpetuating the stereotypes that the blogosphere has put the twins into. And YES. If Cara was whining through the show and having a meltdown on camera (which yes, we have seen before), or being rude towards adults, I'd feel the same.
Actually, I never assumed that Mady was the twin who wrote the door sign, or the sign in the girl tup's bedroom that said "Dear Hananah and Leah, we clened (sic) your room for you." Cara could have written either one. By the way, has that sign been "decoded" by conspiracy theorists yet? Oh my GOD. It means that the twins are becoming obsessive clean freaks like their mother! Horrors! Call Paul Peterson, immediately!
t seems that there are varied opinions here. No one said that the "sign" is an actual "sign" that Mady doesn't want to continue with the show. I want to dicuss the topic on hand - not whats happening elsewhere."
Uhhh, yes. Someone else WAS assuming that, further up in the thread, which is what I was responding to. Someone who came over to argue hiding behind the veil of "anonymous," (just like you), said the following:
And Mady went out of her way to summon the cameraperson to the sign where she then shut the door in their face. If that's not an indication she's so over being filmed I don't know what is.
And this coming on the heels of the official website declaring the entire family chose to continue with the show. Was Mady outvoted or just ignored during the discussion?
Sounds like SOMEONE IS assuming that "Signgate" is a message that Mady is "so over" being on this show. I was sarcastically responding to that. My comments boil down to the fact that I think the sign was simply a message that she was having a BAD DAY. In other words, I didn't read as much into it as some over-invested people have.
Some of you guys really need to check the batteries on your sarcasm meters before you leave the safety of your Blog o'Hatred.
By the way, the Paul Peterson joke I made above was also sarcasm.
Swopes, This isn't my debate but I don't necessarily think it's fair to say that this "blog" is not capable of civilized discussion because you didn't like one poster's post.
I also don't think it's fair to call MCB a bully because she defended what she said. When people are defending and explaining their position, does that make them a bully?
Isn't the point of discussion and debate, just that? Geez.
We don't have to agree with others' opinions, but I think we do need to respect one another.
I was going to scroll up and read above, but decided to refrain.
The facts are we don't know who wrote the sign and kids will be kids.
Maybe the twins are sick of cameras, maybe they were in a bad mood that day, maybe maybe maybe. We can only speculate and in my opinion, this speculation can get a little personal and out of hand.
I am strongly against name calling and one reason I post here is because this seems to be a place where civil debates happen and opinions are respected.
Great episode! I love that J&K remember where their babies were placed in the NICU, and also telling about how the babies were named. To me, this show was much more personal than other shows, and while they didn't have to, J&K really let the viewers in on such an emotional and private part of their lives. It was really sweet to see them reminicse over their simpler days at the end of the episode.
Other thoughts:
Mady: This child has such a personality. Yes, sometimes she is more challenging, but she is very bright and I'm sure the dramatics will even out as she gets older. I think J&K handle her the best way that she needs to be handled. Sometimes this includes just letting her do her thing until she gets it out of her system.
Aaden's dance was so sweet ~ And Cara fixing his glasses was also really precious.
It was funny seeing all of those kids running around that small condo. It's true that kids really don't need much to be entertained. ;)
This isn't my debate but I don't necessarily think it's fair to say that this "blog" is not capable of civilized discussion because you didn't like one poster's post.
This has nothing to do with the dislike or disagreement of one person's post. You and I do not share the same opinions on certain issues, but we were able to discuss them without name calling. I am talking about the way we respond to one another (in general - other people other topics)
I also don't think it's fair to call MCB a bully because she defended what she said. When people are defending and explaining their position, does that make them a bully?
Please take the time and go back to read this chain, any chain, look to see where the tone of topic starts to change.
Unfortunately from past experience, I have a feeling where this is going to go.
"If you are so ignorant, you can't detect sarcasm..."
"If you don't like it.....you can go"
If you want to encourage balanced discussion, then please start addressing the correct response.
You (nomoredrama) admitted that you are a passionate person, regardless of how angry you are or how strongly you disagree, you have still managed to respond accordingly.
That cannot be said for some of the posters here. Yes, there are trolls who hit and run, but among those "anon" comments there maybe a first time poster who is feeling out the waters before he/she commits to posting regularly or with an id.
When I addressed the blog as a whole, I meant, is is a post is going to be met with that type of response, then I think a lot of people who may really have interesting things to say will refrain from posting here.
Maybe that is what the goal is, to have a pool of posters who understand each others tone and don't care otherwise for those taht don't.
'If you want to encourage balanced discussion, then please start addressing the correct response.
I hope this blog doesn't end up being another TWoP, with every post being combed for the dread OT, subjects being decreed off limits, and adult people being chastised if they let their tone reflect any passion. Toward the end, it was like typing in handcuffs.
I wonder if the posters here can speak emphatically, and have discussions that do contain some passion, and not have dissenting posters recoil at the strength of the argument. Or even at a little sarcasm. It would be interesting to see if adult people can handle a strong discourse. That's what I think would make this a stimulating place.
I do agree about the name-calling. No one needs to call someone an idiot. Also, swopes, that would include you calling mcb a 'bully'. That breaks the rules you're trying to propose be respected here, so how does that help keep the discussion rational? It's that old teacher rule; address the behavior, instead of the person.
I am sure MCB will respond will the usual Pot. Kettle. Pot. Kettle
I too have seen the trend of this site. Maybe it was in poor taste to pinpoint a poster as a "Bully" - but there is a lot of "Bullying" on this site.
Some people here are quick to say they dislike GWoP for the name calling - but when it's done here (depending on who has done it) it's called "having an opinion".
Swopes, once again, I never said "brat" and I definitely never called anyone an idiot. Yet you and "anonymous" (who I'm assuming is also you?) are the ones reading into things, making accusations, and tossing the word "brat" and "bully" around. And what if I had called her that? Mady was behaving badly during this episode. Period. Her parents commented on it. So what? All kids can be brats at one time or another. It's not the same as calling her "oafish" or "Fatty Arbuckle," which are personal slams against the appearance of a Gosselin child which were made on the other board. Anyone can act like a brat. Heck, Kate acts like a brat at times. It's not a personal slam against the size of her arms, her hairstyle or the width of her booty (none of which I see a problem with, personally). It would be the same thing if after watching the cupcake episode or during the gum controversy, you thought Kate acted like a bitch, which she did. Many people called her that (and worse).
Saying that someone is acting like a brat (random child during any episode) or an ass (Jon, sometimes) or a bitch (Kate sometimes) is talking about behavior. Behaviors can be changed and we all lapse into those behaviors once in awhile. It's not the same as calling someone ugly, fat, or oafish, which is making fun of something that can't be changed or helped.
So, in conclusion, you're basically asking that we stop commenting on how Kate or Jon or any of the kids act because it's namecalling. Very convenient and a neat way to try to get this board to shut up. It would be kind of hard to comment on episodes if we can't critique how they're acting wouldn't it?
And yeah, totally agree with Tyra that turning this board into TWoP (or GWoP) is not the way to go and, truthfully, ISN'T EVEN CLOSE in either direction, which is the best part of it.
jdmac said... "Great episode! I love that J&K remember where their babies were placed in the NICU, and also telling about how the babies were named."
Thanks for reminding me of that! I thought that was something interesting that I hadn't put together before, i.e. the boys and girls were named in alpha order (how organized, I wonder who came up with that idea?). And I agree with Kate, Aaden is Aaden, Alexis is Alexis. I can't imagine them with different names either!
"Mady: This child has such a personality. Yes, sometimes she is more challenging, but she is very bright and I'm sure the dramatics will even out as she gets older. I think J&K handle her the best way that she needs to be handled. Sometimes this includes just letting her do her thing until she gets it out of her system."
I agree! She is so very bright and articulate, but she is not an "easy" child. I don't think J&K get enough credit for the way they handle her. Of course, I have only seen what's on T.V., but they seem to handle her in a firm, but loving way. Even though they have reasonable expectations of behavior, they do seem to hear her out and sometimes just allow her "to do her thing" as you stated.
It may seem to some that I'm parsing words, but I see a difference between saying that someone is a brat and that someone is acting like a brat. Not that anyone necessarily said either thing (I'm a little confused on that point). But saying "Mady is a brat" seems like a harsh judgment. Saying "Mady acted bratty on Monday's show" seems like an observation, and IMO a fairly accurate one. Just as it's sometimes accurate to say Kate was being bitchy, but I have more of a problem with the bald statement "Kate is a bitch."
I really like Mady, but she's not an easy child. It's okay; some kids are easier than others. She has a lot of wonderful qualities as well. I don't judge a 7-year-old that harshly because her personality is her personality and at her age there really are limits to her self-control. If she still acted so volatile at 27, I'd be more apt to be judgmental.
I agree with Anya that J&K handle Mady very well for the most part. They often have a lot more patience with her than I can imagine having! I think they do make some allowances for her temperment, as well. People can be judgmental about that, too - if you see a parent not controlling a kid who is acting out, it's easy to think that the parent is too permissive. But I think one thing to remember about more high-maintenance kids is that you really have to pick your battles, if you don't want to be in opposition 24 hours a day. So I think J&K balance discipline with letting Mady be Mady as well as they can, from what I've seen.
As an aside, re accusations of bullying: in my experience, that word gets thrown out there when someone's opinions are challenged and they don't have any good response. I guess I don't understand on a board like this why anyone would feel bullied or intimidated. It's not like we're tracking people's home addresses down, like some people I could name. I think we do get passionate sometimes (some of us are more prone to this than others), but I think that there's enough balance and civility that if you feel bullied, it's either your choice to feel that way, or you're extremely sensitive.
And now for something entirely different. Caution, I am speaking of puberty, butts and mood swings. if you are offended, best look away.
I was thinking last night about the twins and them possibly becoming sick of the cameras. They are creeping up upon that age where they will, frankly, start acting like teenagers. They'll be eight years old in October, right? that's three to four years away from PMS and mood swings. I've heard many moms of daughters remarking how their daughters seem to be hitting that moody age earlier and earlier. Oh, I'd hate to be Jon and Kate when the twins are 17 and the girl tups are 13. Aaden, Collin and Joel may ask to move their room to the basement just to get away from the estrogen.
Back to the cameras. When the Roloff's were on Oprah, they mentioned that the cameras are never in Molly's room, and I don't believe we've ever seen Matt and Amy's room, either. We have seen the Roloff twin's and Jake's rooms. But, I actually think we see them for the sheer shock value of the sight of them. You need a Bobcat to plow a path through the debris if you ever want to see the floor. It's a disaster area. It's horrifying, yet hilarious and also something that gets the viewers attention (which in turn gets discussed on message boards, which is the intent). Is Amy too soft on them, is she a bad parents because she doesn't make them clean up after themselves, are they spoiled brats, ect. Molly is a teenage girl and they need their privacy, so not putting cameras in there is a good thing, IMO. The boys don't seem to care one way or the other.
I think that as the Gosselins have aged, that there are now "no film zones" in their house. We only saw the twins new room when it was being remodeled and once since then, when they left a clue for the Valentine's Day scavenger hunt in there. There is no overhead production lighting in the twins room. It seems that they have decided that that is their safe haven, which is a good thing. Also, Jon and Kate's bedroom door is usually closed, and also has no production lighting. According to Kate, she never makes the bed, and that's probably the original reason the door was kept closed, but we have gotten occasional glimpses (Mother's Day, carpet installation day, and answering viewer e-mail show). But, usually, that door is shut and the cameras don't enter. I remember one episode where Mady stormed in, kicked her book bag and stomped into her parent's room and slammed the door. A few minutes later she emerged, as if nothing was wrong, perfectly happy. Kate commented that sometimes, she just needs some down time to herself and cooling off in her parent's room is what she needed. Jon and Kate's room seems to be an off-limits filming area, now. Also, a good thing.
Bathrooms go without saying. The tups aren't little babies, anymore, when it's considered cute to show them playing in a bathtub. And spare me the GWoP talking point about it being indecent no matter how old they are. You mean to tell me that none of you took photos of your babies in bathtubs or nekkid in a swimming pool? I do have a nekkid booty shot of my then one year old in a kiddie pool. That's blackmail material now. However, the age seems to have passed on the Gosselin tup's booty and potty shots. The bathroom should now be off limits, as well.
And no, I really didn't see the harm in Aaden's plumber's butt being shown a couple weeks ago. It was funny.
Sorry, I like misspelling naked as "nekkid." Kind of makes it less taboo to say.
I am sure MCB will respond will the usual Pot. Kettle. Pot. Kettle
MCB said... "Saying that someone is acting like a brat (random child during any episode) or an ass (Jon, sometimes) or a bitch (Kate sometimes) is talking about behavior. Behaviors can be changed and we all lapse into those behaviors once in awhile. It's not the same as calling someone ugly, fat, or oafish, which is making fun of something that can't be changed or helped.
So, in conclusion, you're basically asking that we stop commenting on how Kate or Jon or any of the kids act because it's namecalling. Very convenient and a neat way to try to get this board to shut up. It would be kind of hard to comment on episodes if we can't critique how they're acting wouldn't it?"
Speaking for myself, MCB, I very much agree with the distinction you are making. I try very hard not to put labels on any of the Gosselins (unless it's something harmless, like calling Alexis "sassy"!). I will describe the *behavior* I am seeing and I will use appropriate adjectives - some of which may have a negative connotation - but I steer away from calling names of any kind.
I also *try* to not use derogatory terms to other posters on this board or the other one, although I will say call a spade a spade and I have no problems calling the other board "a hate board", for example.
From what I have seen, the regular posters here who attach a name to their posts excercise the same courtesy. It's one of the reasons I keep posting and reading this board.
Yet you and "anonymous" (who I'm assuming is also you?) are the ones reading into things, making accusations, and tossing the word "brat" and "bully" around. And what if I had called her that? Mady was behaving badly during this episode.
Please don't assume things. I don't know who the other poster is. I have been posting anonymously because I choose to, after certain events have ocurred.
One being when you accused me of being a member of the secret society,among other things.
And what if I had called her that?
IIRC there is someone on this board that really takes offense at name-calling - especially when it is directed toward the children. This person even takes offense to the word "brat".
Some people here are quick to say they dislike GWoP for the name calling - but when it's done here (depending on who has done it) it's called "having an opinion".
MCB and guinevere, I so agree on the brat/bitch vs bratty/bitchy subject. I do often see Mady (and Alexis!) as acting like a brat, and sometimes Kate acts bitchy. Jon acts grouchy at times. I am not calling anyone names, just calling behavior as I see it in my opinion. I enjoy being able to post on a board that allows for all opinions. On other boards, I see a tendency to excuse Mady's behavior as being a product of "poor parenting", of "abuse", you know all the rest. I personally see her behavior as a product of the kid's own personality. She seems jealous of the younger kids, has tantrums when she doesn't get things her way... and heaven knows Kate is busy enough trying to control the little ones without having to deal with drama-queen behavior from an older one. I'm not a big Kate fan, but anyone with 8 kids has to share her time with all the kids and not focus on one whose nose is out of joint because she can't get her own way.
On other boards, I see a tendency to excuse Mady's behavior as being a product of "poor parenting", of "abuse", you know all the rest. I personally see her behavior as a product of the kid's own personality. She seems jealous of the younger kids, has tantrums when she doesn't get things her way... and heaven knows Kate is busy enough trying to control the little ones without having to deal with drama-queen behavior from an older one. I'm not a big Kate fan, but anyone with 8 kids has to share her time with all the kids and not focus on one whose nose is out of joint because she can't get her own way.
And the thing is, Kate acknowledges (and seems to regret) that Mady doesn't get the attention she needs at times. My sister likened her to one of those cats at the SPCA that has a comment card saying they do best being the only cat in the house. I don't think Mady would necessarily need or want to be an only child, but her jealousy issues and need to be center stage are in conflict with the fact that she has sextuplet siblings. That's just the way it is, and I do think J&K deal with it as best they can. They can give Mady extra attention, but I think there is a limit to that, given that they have eight kids. Also, it's not necessarily fair to quieter kids like Cara to get less attention simply because they aren't loud about demanding it. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and all that. I think it's a balancing act that J&K attempt to maneuver as well as they can. I don't agree that Mady is the way she is due to poor parenting - if it weren't part of Mady's inherent personality to be dramatic and volatile, then how come all of the Gosselin children aren't like her?
One being when you accused me of being a member of the secret society,among other things.
Something that was corrected over a month ago and never brought up again, except by you, oddly enough.
Please don't assume things. I don't know who the other poster is. I have been posting anonymously because I choose to, after certain events have ocurred.
Thus the reason I used a question mark in the original post. Anyone who posts under "anonymous" is bound to be lumped in together. Yet, you take offense to it when convenient and use it to confront people with.
Sorry guys. It's like watching a puppy chase its own tail. I tried to change the subject and post about the show, but the accusations just keep on coming. And I'm sorry, but if you attack me, I'm going to defend myself (and thanks to the regulars here who have spoken up on my behalf).
Now, onto more interesting stuff. Nancy and Guinevere commenting on Mady and whether her behavior is the result of bad parenting. I agree with both of you. I don't think that's the case. I think J&K do the best they can most of the time. As one of you mentioned, she's one of eight children, and six of those kids were born at the same time. Their mother was in the hospital for 10 weeks during the pregnancy. When she finally did come home, she brought six loud, poopy, attention grabbers with her (not at once, of course). Older children are frequently jealous of younger sibs. Imagine six at once? It's bound to have an effect.
Throw that into the mix that Mady has Kate's DNA. HELLO? (tm Kate) The apple didn't fall far from the drama tree, here. Cara seems to have inherited Jon's more laid back personality, but like her dad, when she melts down, LOOK OUT. It all comes to the surface at once, something that they've discussed on the show. Mady is more like Kate, Cara is more like Jon. Mady (and Alexis) have high maintenance personalities. They like being the center of attention. This may also require more hands-on parenting through their childhoods. Cara needs to be pushed more (like Jon). Hannah, too. The need to be shoved out of bed. They're quiet. Hannah is more clingy, while Cara will go to another room where the cameras and her siblings aren't, to be by herself.
MCB said... "Throw that into the mix that Mady has Kate's DNA. HELLO? (tm Kate) The apple didn't fall far from the drama tree, here."
Your comment made me laugh. There is truth here.
That's the thing about kids - they sometimes end up with our personalities and quirks! I was a moody teenager, difficult to please. Guess what I got - a moody teenager, difficult to please.
The circle of life!
Mady also has Kate's sharp wit (Jon has this to a certain degree to). While some may not appreciate this in a 7-year-old and she should be counseled when she uses it inappropriately, it showcases her intelligence, in my opinion. The things that come out of her mouth. I have to remind myself she's only 7-years-old she is so expressive.
I liked seeing the softer side of Kate on this episode! A couple of things I didn't think were so great?
That sign Madi put up broke my heart :(
I don't agree with a whole family of 10 traipsing through a NICU ward, and into an O.R. where they put their hands all over sterile equipment. It was absolutely wrong of the hospital to allow that. Imagine having your preemie in there and watching a gaggle of dirty handed, healthy kids come through there, when you have a problem getting even an additional family member in there and then have to scrub up for 5 minutes just to touch your fragile ailing baby. I would feel outright offended if I was a parent in there. Shame on the hospital! Money talks I guess, a sad commentary on the business of medicine.
I'm not being sarcastic when I ask this. I'm really asking out of ignorance...
The kids were always about 10 feet from the actual babies in the NICU. Like when the nurse was holding the baby, they stood in the doorway. Are preemies that sensitive that even being that far away, and even in their isolate they could have still been put at risk?
Would the hospital risk being sued by a dozen parents for J & K. I guess I kind of doubt it but I've never experienced the NICU myself.
IIRC, they didn't actually go into the NICU room, they were looking in behind a glass wall.
The sign Mady put up didn't faze me at all because my kids did the same thing. My daughter had a "no boys allowed" sign on her door to keep my son out of her room. No big deal IMO.
Oh yes, preemies have very low resistance to germs and infections, which is why the kids were kept at a safe distance. I remember the TLC/DH show about the Healy's. When they brought their preemie twins home from the NICU, they sat the 11 older kids down and explained that they had to use alcohol on their hands before they touched the twins and that the least little infection could be fatal.
As far as the hospital allowing them in there, the Gosselins were the biggest public relations coup that hospital ever had. Jon and Kate didn't go to a larger hospital in Philly or travel to a well known pediatric hospital in another part of the country. They went to Hershey. The front page of the papers from the day the tups were born are framed and hanging on the walls there. Most likely, they were excited to see them again, and to also get some more good publicity by appearing on TLC.
I'm sure that operating theatre was sterilized within an inch of its life once eight germy kids left, too. At least the next patient certainly hopes so! ;)
I was turning around last night and saw they were re-running "Labor Day". I caught the first few minutes again and paid a little more attention to the sign scene this time around.
Over the last couple of days, many have been portraying this as a "cry for help." Another poster said that Mady had slammed the door in the cameraman's face (as if he were stalking her with the camera).
What I saw: Mady came out of the homework room, and very purposely summoned the cameraman over to the door with a "look at this" signal and then closed the door (not right in his face, however).
While some of this is open to interpretation, of course, I think the reality is a little different than many have been portraying it.
To me, Mady wanted EVERYONE to know that she was in a bad mood and wanted to be left alone.
Another Gosselin poster said "Mady was so over the cameras". I don't think so. If she wanted to hide out from them, she could. Instead, she sought them out to show them her sign. I understand some people's concern about the cameras and the effect on the kids, but to me her behavior reminded me of the times my daughter has cried VERY LOUDLY from another room so I was sure to hear her and know her misery. My daughter has also put these type of signs up on her door. It is usually after we have argued and it's a way to get a last word in about how ANGRY she is.
All and all, much ado about nothing, in my opinion.
""I'm not being sarcastic when I ask this. I'm really asking out of ignorance...
The kids were always about 10 feet from the actual babies in the NICU. Like when the nurse was holding the baby, they stood in the doorway. Are preemies that sensitive that even being that far away, and even in their isolate they could have still been put at risk?""
Yes, some preemies are indeed that sensitive and that's why hospitals have strict protocols regarding the NICU. At least 2 of the kids crossed the painted line on the floor and IIRC 1 of the boys touched a couple of items. The likelyhood of transmission is low, but ANY exposure except by immediate family is avoided because the possibility exists. You just never know. A nurse or relative could touch the door frame or an item that had been touched by one of the kids and then touch the baby. Aside from that, the hospital has a responsibility to protect the mental state of families who have a critical baby there. The last thing parents with a sick or dying baby want to see is a gaggle of beautiful, healthy, noisy children in an area that should be calm, private and serene.
""Would the hospital risk being sued by a dozen parents for J & K. I guess I kind of doubt it but I've never experienced the NICU myself.""
Apparently they would. Hospitals are very eager to get funding any way they can, sometimes at the risk of the health of the patients (as we have just seen). The problem of nosocomial infection is the single biggest challenge hospitals and patients face today. In many cases the left hand doesn't know (or care) what the right is doing, and sometimes what is allowed by the PR/funding department is shocking and not condoned by the regular medical staff.
""I'm sure that operating theatre was sterilized within an inch of its life once eight germy kids left, too. At least the next patient certainly hopes so! ;)""
I certainly hope so too. The risk is not acceptable IMO considering the risk of nosocomial infection. The trip into the OR was worse IMO than a couple of tups crossing the line into a NICU room. Note: This ISN'T J&K's fault, but it was absolutely unacceptable from a medical point of view. The Dr. who interrupted them looked surprised and like he was covering up annoyance IMO. The staff will be inconvenienced, the OR cannot be used by a critical patient until sterilized, and the risk of contamination still exists even after supposed sterilization (DR's do not even enter the OR unless scrubbed and wearing protective gear). It is just a disgusting display of the commercialism of medicine, and yes, you can bet they were given a donation by TLC/figure 8 to allow it.
Again this wasn't J&K's fault, but it was a mistake to allow that and certainly shocking for anyone who has a medical background and understands the risks to see.
Other than that, the episode was charming and very nice I thought.
Anonymous said at 1:26 pm... "Aside from that, the hospital has a responsibility to protect the mental state of families who have a critical baby there. The last thing parents with a sick or dying baby want to see is a gaggle of beautiful, healthy, noisy children in an area that should be calm, private and serene."
Anon, you make some very valid points. Although I enjoyed the episode a lot, I am starting to lean toward your side -- i.e., that the hospital was a bit starstruck and too quick to disregard their normal protocols in order to accomodate the show.
Anonymous September 4, 2008 2:18 PM said... "Oh, and if that isn't the saddest, most cruel thing I have ever read here...............
Gawd, you do realize that she will be able to read that comment one day!?!?!?
Read HERE? Um, I don't think so, but that's your opinion. I think the comment was meant to illustrate that Mady might have done better in a single child or perhaps one sibling home. It wasn't in the cards, however, and she will be fine. I probably would have done "better" with parents who provided more consistent and loving structure, but I survived and so will Mady! Nobody was comparing Mady to a stray cat for pete's sake!
Now, if you really want to read some "cruel" prose, I have a blog just for you!
Never mind. I don't want to give their hateful rantings more publicity than they already get!
Yeah, I would not have passed it on if I thought it was cruel at all. The point is that Mady may have a temperment better suited to being part of a small family, one in which she could get more attention. That's not the way the cards were dealt, and Mady and her parents are going to have to deal with that. It's not a criticism of her in any way.
In fact, one could argue that being as we never really know how things will turn out, it might be a blessing in disguise. Maybe it will temper some of Mady's need to be the center of attention. Maybe if she had been an only child she would have really ended up spoiled. Who really knows? She's a bright, lovable kid who just happens not be easy-going. I think she has a lot going for her.
Anon 1:26, That was really helpful, thanks, I honestly didn't even realize it was a problem. Now I know..and it makes me kind of thankful that I haven't had to experience having a baby born prematurely or have family and friends experience. It makes me grateful.
85 comments:
I have to chuckle at the comments like "the little kids want to find out where they were born." or "the 4 years olds want us to continue with the show." I guess my kids were delayed when they were 4 because we never had discussions like that! HA! I don't blame J&K, I know it is PR and production coming up with these statements but don't they know their demographics? A bunch of moms know growth and development 101.....:)
oh, it's not even over and I can see what will be said about the sign on the door that Mady put up. Does anyone know what the last word said?
Normally after watching the show, I try to guess what GWoP will say. This week, I don't even want to go over there. I was actually touched by this episode and I'm rarely touched by a reality show. If anything, this episode showed that Jon and Kate are human. They have flaws sure, but you can't fake the emotions that Kate had. Agree with them or don't....but they love their kids...that I'm certain of.
I watched tonight's episode. I have to remark that you could really tell about the stress that they were under probably the first two years of the kids life with just taking care of the bare necessities of feeding, changing, comforting, etc. all of those babies let alone trying to deal with the needs of Cara and Mady.
I've read people criticizing them for not paying it forward but they were really under constant demands when those kids were young.
I remember, especiallly with my older son who is kind of high needs and high energy, how I didn't really feel like I was able to enjoy life until he was about 4. When he was 3, I had a very complex pregnancy that happily resulted in a very healthy baby, but that time in my life was not very fun. I really didn't have much energy to pay it forward either and I didn't have six babies.
I also felt a little sad when I saw both of them talk about the stress that they are experiencing now. It just made me sad.
I also thought this was a very sweet episode. I felt bad for Kate when she got emotional. I think people constantly bashing her is really getting to her. I can't even imagine having people judge everything that I do as a parent. It's one thing to talk about her hair or her attitude, but to say that she is a bad parent and doesn't love her children is a whole other issue!
Leave it up to GWOP to take a photo of the TV to show what Mady wrote about no cameras in the bathroom. DUH? And how sick are some that literally only 20 minutes in they already had 50+posts where people were writing down and commenting every thing that was going on, including the camera man who wears the booties in the house. Ohh and you knew when Kate handed over that donation check they were running to the computer to talk about that one. Its become a sickening sport to the haters of that show and its so sad. I thought the show tonight was wonderful. Having just recently had a child of my own, I know how wonderful it is to go back and reminisce.
And of course, she did give back tonight and that will, I'm sure be bashed and called damage control. Nothing at all will convince these people that this woman has a heart. Why? Because she has a TV show that you don't agree with? Because she parents differently than you? Because she didn't abort some of the sextuplets? It's so senseless. I don't even have words....
I was also touched by this episode. I can't imagine what life must have been like for them in the first years. I know how hard it is to have two children. I know that when I had the second, I felt as if I had somehow taken something away from my eldest. I can't imagine how those feelings would be magnified with 6 more children. For the first time in a while I really felt for J+K. I agree that these things that are said about her daily must be getting to her. How could they not?
They bother ME.
Against my better judgment, I went over to read the comments about the show on gwop, and sure enough, posted on the front page was the note on mady's door.
Obviously that could have been edited out of the show, and the fact that it wasn't leads me to believe that the producers are also fueling the controversy.
I knew as soon as they showed the note on the bathroom door that GWoP would be on it like white on rice. They're so predictable, grasping at any straw they can. Never mind that this was such a nice episode. Never mind that we got to meet and see the Gosselins pay tribute to the men and woman who brought the sextuplets into the world. And god knows, that check to Ronald McDonald House was for "show." Right? I'd say that if Kate bragged about how much was on the check, but she didn't. She simply handed them a folded check and that was that. Which is as it should be.
It was a nice show. Any mother who went through such a stressful pregnancy and childbirth, would look back and get emotional. I had a friend who's baby was born at just under two pounds and spent a long time in the NICU. It is a heartbreaking place. You DO feel guilty when your child improves, while the baby in the next isolette dies. I can imagine that Jon and Kate did feel guilt as their six improved while parents with only one baby were not so lucky. But, I supposed they're faking that, too, right?
While I'm sure there are very loud cries of "Damage Control" out there in internet land, tonight's episode reaffirmed several opinions about Kate (and Jon) that I had developed.
1. I think Kate genuinely has a good heart, even if she maybe has some issues with appropriately expressing herself or dealing with others. This is a woman who loves her family, and does what she feels is best for them. Would I make the choices she has made? Probably not. I don't know, because I'm not in her shoes. I loved that Kate was willing to show emotion tonight, and that she was brutally honest about how hard the first few years were. That doesn't mean she doesn't love those kids with all of her heart and soul. It doesn't mean she didn't have help. It means that she knows that she was thrown in the reproductive "deep end" of the pool and just barely doggy paddled her way out. But she made it. I don't believe for a second that she ever greedily rubbed her hands together and said "Hey Jon, let's trick our doctor into getting us pregnant with six babies at once. Just think of the cash we could make! Mwhahaha."
2. While I do not agree with all of the choices Jon and Kate have made, I really feel that the financial aspect of this show is a huge motivator behind continuing on with the show. I think Kate admitted that doing it was hard, but I think on some level, she and Jon see it as a way to provide financially for their family, and provide them with the opportunity to not work full time. If I were Jon and had a chance to spend more time at home with my family, would I not at least consider it? The debate is at what cost is that opportunity, but I really feel that this may be part of where they are coming from.
3. I think Kate is just a very fearful person in general. I really feel for her. I think she's so terrified of something happening that it cripples her socially, it motivates her to do something that is causing her stress in order to make sure they are set financially, and it really affects her ability to enjoy many beautiful moments with her family. Just like when they were at the beach. Even though Jon was with the kids, and they weren't in deep, she just couldn't relax and enjoy the time because she's so crippled with fear. I feel for her.
4. Kate is very sentimental. She is determined to create memories, and document them for her family. I don't know if childhood home was rough, or if she's just sentimental by nature. Either way, I love that about her. I truly believe she wants the best for her kids, and is at a loss how to do that without extra help from others.
Just my two cents. I thought overall, this episode was touching. Also, please consider supporting the Ronald McDonald House. It is a very worthwhile cause.
I really loved all of your comments on this episode. I agree with many of you that this episode was touching - I teared up on more than one occasion. It's having a blog like this that celebrates the POSITIVE (while still being balanced enough to discuss the negative like rational adults) about this show - recognizing that it is, at the end of the day, a show, but a show that can be really touching and family-friendly.
Watching Kate give that check to the Ronald McDonald house will certainly get tongues wagging, but it was so clear (to me) that she felt immensely grateful for the home the organization provided to them during what was a truly challenging time and was so glad to finally be able to give back.
Kudos to the Gosselins for really celebrating their family - warts and all.
I just watched the last 40 mins of the episode. I didn't see the "no camera's" sign but good for which ever child put that up, and for the G's to allow it to be put up. Hopefully they are recognizing that some boundries are in order.
Kate's emotion towards the end really made me realize that she's a HUMAN BEING. She has feelings. I'm sure all of this is affecting her stress level, which affects how she treats her family. Perhaps some blame for some of their stress belongs on the shoulders of the people who continue to say hateful, hurtful, mean-spirited things about them. Regardless if she's anything like people say, who are we to judge?
To me the sign is an indication that the kids do have privacy when they ask for it. Now, if Kate would have said "Mady, take that sign down now...you WILL be filmed WHEVEVER I say you are filmed" then that would be an issue.
To me the sign is an indication that the kids do have privacy when they ask for it.
I know but my heart goes out to Mady because who needs to ask for something like that. Feeling safe in your own home should be a given should it not?
About the check - I don't know how to feel. I think that if it were genuine, I don't think that's something that needed to be filmed. My feelings about the show stem from watching week to week and saying "Huh" at the contractions. How many times did Kate say "rare treat" last week? My goodness even bagels are a "rare treat" for them. Come on really.
I was too tired to post last night but I, too, thought it was a touching episode.
Anon 907 -
A really nice post.
Anon 10:48 -
I pick up on the "rare treat" type comments too. Then I began thinking of all the repeat things I say. Annoying as it may be to hear something over and over, I think it's just K.
Nomore - I am trying not to go over there too. I'm just getting over it already.
Oooops, I forgot, about the check. I do believe the G's are going to be good at giving back. I'm sure the producers just wanted to get it on film. Otherwise, I think Kate would have just passed it on to someone. Also, if Kate really wanted to make a big stink about it, she would have given it to the executive director and invited press there. She just handed it to a staff person and said thank you. I thought that was touching.
I cannot even begin to imagine the amount of stress J&K have been under since they found out they were expecting sextuplets. In Kate's shoes, I would be a bit emotional as well.
First, you have the pregnancy and all of the medical worries with the birth to get through. Second, you have the logistics of taking care of twin girls and six babies. Third, you agree to do a show about your family (IMO, predominantly for financial reasons)and are subsequently crucified for every little thing.
Whether you agree with their decision or not, it takes immense strength to hold up under all of the intense pressure they have been under for almost five years, and they deserve some respect for that.
About the check - I don't know how to feel. I think that if it were genuine, I don't think that's something that needed to be filmed.
Forgive me, anon for picking on your comment, I just think couldn't disagree with you more. If she had gone to Ronald McDonald house and not made a donation on camera, the amount of vile that would be spit at her...unfortunately she is no longer at the point where she can just make a private donation. That being said, the amount she gave was private. So, yes, we did see her give them something but do not know how much.
People like Angelina Jolie, Oprah and other celebrities make public donations all the time and, usually, we know the amount. Is tacky? Would you call it "damage control"? Does Oprah really care about the children in Africa or is she just trying to get positive press? I think sometimes people (not necessarily you, anon) cannot look at the family without doing so through a lens of hatred.
It also just goes to show that nothing Kate or Jon does will ever be looked upon favorably by these haters. I guess my question is, why do you need to feel that way about a person you've never met in your life?
Very touching episode. I had tears in my eyes listening and watching Kate.
I don't even want to go to GWoP to read their comments. Everything is seen as damage control which IMO, is totally unfair!
About the sign - when my kids were Mady's age they sometimes put a note on their door saying "do not enter, unless invited" or "knock, first" or "so and so could not enter" Think it's just part of kids exercising their independence and creating their own space.
jax said...
About the sign - when my kids were Mady's age they sometimes put a note on their door saying "do not enter, unless invited" or "knock, first" or "so and so could not enter" Think it's just part of kids exercising their independence and creating their own space.
My 7 year old daughter also has a "closed" or "open" sign taped to her door. She has 1 brother so there isn't a whole lot of privacy issues. We always knock on doors before coming in just because that the courtesy we expect them to use with each other. In other words, there really isn't a need for the signs but she wanted them so we let her. Not a big deal.
About the check - I don't know how to feel. I think that if it were genuine, I don't think that's something that needed to be filmed.
After all the accusations that have shown up on certain blogs saying that Jon and Kate just take and never give back? Oh, I think it was necessary. Especially considering Julie is the one spreading that message, since she's all about the money and who's getting it and who's not.
As far as the sign goes, I don't think the filming of said sign had anything to do with privacy issues and accusations of a lack thereof. They showed two signs last night. The one on the bathroom door and a sign in little girls room that said, "Dear Hannah and Leah, we cleaned your room for you. Cara and Mady." Jon joked that they spelled "cleaned" as "clened." I think they were shown because it was cute to see the messy first grade penmanship and misspellings and the fact that the older girls are now at the stage that they are leaving signs and notes everywhere, because they CAN. I'd be willing to be that there's a "NO LITTLE KIDS ALLOWED" sign on the twins bedroom door, now, too.
I knew last night that the check-giving was going to be an issue, and it bothers me because, as people have said, the Gosselins have been specifically blasted for "not giving back." To which I always thought, how do you know? I mean, I'm sure the GWoPpers are trying to get access to the Gosselins' tax records, but I think we'd have heard if they had succeeded. So whether they have given to charity in the past or not is pure speculation. But of course, the GWoPpers assume that because we haven't seen it, it hasn't happened. So we do see it, and of course they complain about that. What more proof does anyone need that the Gosselins absolutely cannot win with these people?
Perhaps some blame for some of their stress belongs on the shoulders of the people who continue to say hateful, hurtful, mean-spirited things about them.
I thought it was a really sweet episode but towards the end I was feeling bad because I thought the same thing - I felt like the references Kate made might be to the abuse and stalking directed at them, and the way that outsiders have interfered with their familial relationships (which is not to say that Kate and/or Jodi aren't responsible for the state of their relationship, but there have defintely been other influences as well). I'm sure the guilty parties are in ecstasy over seeing the pain they've caused - that is usually the goal of a stalker, to have some effect on the life of their victim. But it makes me sad and angry.
MCB said...
"After all the accusations that have shown up on certain blogs saying that Jon and Kate just take and never give back? Oh, I think it was necessary. Especially considering Julie is the one spreading that message, since she's all about the money and who's getting it and who's not."
Agree. As you and others have said, I kind of think it had to be "public". It's also a nice plug for Ronald McDonald House. I bet a few more folks might think of adding them to their donation list after this episode.
In addition to the "giving back" angle, I also think the donation sends a message to viewers that the Gosselins are doing ok financially. Since certain viewers pick apart everything they say as a plea for more freebies, I think this was a way of saying that their financial situation is much more stable than it was two years ago and they are publically acknowledging that. Yes, I know it's because of the revenue from the show and yes I know they don't have jobs outside the home. Those are separate issues. My point is for those people who felt the Gosselins were trying to "put one over" on viewers as to how their financial situation has changed, this was an open acknowledgement that they have enough money to be able give back.
Its been said that Kate has a good heart. I'm not so sure. I don't believe she's malicious - just too self-absorbed to make much of a parent or much of a friend/neighbour.
I share concern about most of the controversy surrounding the Gosselins. Jon and Kate's estrangement from their extended families, including how Jodi was treated How J&K seem to play favourites among the kids including how Joel is treated, Kate not letting the kids relax and get messy -- and the sexist gender-role stuff they both endlessly cram down the kids' throats. Yuck to it all.
But the rest of the rhetoric floating around cyberspace borders on obsessive hate, if you ask me -- including the conclusions people are jumping to about Mady's sign.
For whatever its worth, I thought the sign was a hoot, and it reminded me of the stuff my own (now 20 year old) daughter came up with at that age. Oh, the drama that can come for a girl when she wants it to. I still have some of my girl's messages and they are hysterical. Mady's sign struck me as both typical and very funny.
I so wish other blogs would stop over-analyzing every gesture and moment, and remember the big issues here. I've tried to say as much while over there, but my comments often don't make it past the censors. Curious.
anna said...
"I also thought this was a very sweet episode. I felt bad for Kate when she got emotional. I think people constantly bashing her is really getting to her."
Yeah, I sort of got the same sense. I thought part of her emotion came from reliving what I am sure is still a very poignant time for her, but I also got the sense the 'simplier times' she referenced was the time before she had to face the criticism and barbs she has had to endure. And, of course, the effect the show has had on family relationships. Even though I totally defend J&K's decision to do the show, I think it cannot be ignored that like everything in life, doing the show comes with a price.
When Kate was got teary-eyed, I found myself wishing Jon would give her a hug or at least acknowledge her emotion (her was sitting right next to her, but didn't seem to bat an eye), but my guess is he is just not comfortable with emotion....
When Kate was got teary-eyed, I found myself wishing Jon would give her a hug or at least acknowledge her emotion (her was sitting right next to her, but didn't seem to bat an eye), but my guess is he is just not comfortable with emotion....
Yes, I felt exactly the same way. I agree that he doesn't appear to be comfortable with emotion, but I wish he had made some attempt.
As you and others have said, I kind of think it had to be "public"
I have to say that if Jon and Kate did not "talk" so much about what kind of people they are (Family Mission Statement, etc), this would not be necessary.
I try and give them the benefit of the doubt, but their actions speak so much louder than their words.
I am going to date myself but I was a PA on the one of the first 3 seasons of the Real World. Yes - they edit to the hilt. In the early days of RW, if you don't pay attention, you will notice that people's wardrobe will change in the middle of a conversation. But with that being said - they work with what you give them. For example, in season 3, it would have been impossible to make a villain out of Cory M. She was a very nice person. Her footage reflected nothing but that - in actions and words.
A lot of people say they wouldn't do what Jon and Kate do, but unless you have been in their position, you can't say yea or ney. "The business" is a deceptive one - there is a lot of catering and giving into whims - even on that level. Even the humblest of people get used to the pampering.
I want to say something about this site. I have noticed that when it comes to Jon and Kate - there are a lot of people who give them the benefit of the doubt. Yet other aspects - the anti- Jon and Kate are scrutinized to the hilt.
My take - a lot of things are very contrived. If it feels fake it's because it is. If I watch the Duggars, I can sense their family is very driven by their beliefs - their actions show that. With Jon and Kate? I don't know. Little things pop and believe me, I am not watching, writing down every moment. Sometimes when re-runs are aired, they are aired out of sequence and one thing that is said totally contradicts something that was said episodes ago. Even the couch scenes to me are suspect, I notice Kate looks over at lot at Jon - it just seems like she is making sure he goes along and validates her version of events - like trying to get the story straight.
I don't know, I think people either like them or don't - the ones that don't will see every action or inaction as evidence to their beliefs and those that do like them tend to gloss over them.
Yes, I agree, they are in a Catch-22 position. If they give a donation on camera, they are trying for damage control. If they don't give on camera, and no one knows, it's assumed they are not giving back, and the haters hate them some more. But either way, people have to realize that J&K have put themselves in this position, by the taking and taking with little visible gratitude. It's sad in a way, as there is really no coming back to ground zero, they are too deeply embedded in the greed machine. Not being hateful, it's just true, if they walked on water tomorrow people would still not forget all the hurt they have caused.
QUOTE I don't know, I think people either like them or don't - the ones that don't will see every action or inaction as evidence to their beliefs and those that do like them tend to gloss over them.END OF QUOTE
Reminds me of a plaque my grandmother had on her wall and it says "Love blinds us to faults, hatred to virtues". So true.
I was surprised that the kids were allowed in the NICU. Honestly if I were a parent of a child in there, I would have been upset. If the kids wanted to know where they came from, they could have just driven by the Hershey Medical Center. It was nice that they gave a donation to Ronald McDonald House. It is a very worthy charity that does great work. I didn't get the staying the night in the condo thing though, they live less than 30 minutes from the medical center. To me, it didn't seem to be worth all the packing and planning to do it. Not a Kate fan but I did feel bad for her when she was crying at the end. I just wish she would realize that they bring alot of this on themselves (not blaming the victim). They are just way too over-exposed right now and probably over-extended as well. Just my 2 cents.
I want to say something about this site. I have noticed that when it comes to Jon and Kate - there are a lot of people who give them the benefit of the doubt. Yet other aspects - the anti- Jon and Kate are scrutinized to the hilt.
That may be true. I know, for myself, I'm willing to cut Jodi some slack because I have seen good from her, on the show. Whereas my only experience with Julie has been ugly, negative, inappropriate behavior. So I'm less likely to try to understand or rationalize her actions.
It's the same with certain posters at GWoP - I have not seen ANYTHING good from these people, and I've seen a lot of hypocrisy. So I'm not inclined to take them at their word or believe that they are well-intentioned.
Maybe I should be more willing to give these people the benefit of the doubt, but as you say - I am working with what they are giving me.
But either way, people have to realize that J&K have put themselves in this position, by the taking and taking with little visible gratitude. It's sad in a way, as there is really no coming back to ground zero, they are too deeply embedded in the greed machine. Not being hateful, it's just true, if they walked on water tomorrow people would still not forget all the hurt they have caused.
I would argue that it's not "true" in that it's an opinion, rather than a fact, though I agree that there are people who will judge them no matter what good they do. Where I disagree is that I think this reflects more on those that judge than on J&K. I also don't know "all the hurt they have caused" - if J&K have been jackasses to some people (if you believe various stories), then they may have hurt some people's feelings. And yes, then, they may have to live with those people disliking them.
But I guess I don't understand the phrase "all the hurt they have caused" because it suggests to me some deep pain (other than simple hurt feelings or offense) that the Gosselins have caused to multiple people, and I don't see that. Neither of them has killed anyone.
Anonymous 11:03 said...
"I am going to date myself but I was a PA on the one of the first 3 seasons of the Real World. Yes - they edit to the hilt...But with that being said - they work with what you give them."
True. Didn't Heather from Season 1 of the RW say much the same thing? That said, I think many of us on this site who have been painted as "Kate Defenders" have acknowledged (many times)that she has showcased many of her flaws. Do the producer's encourage this? I wouldn't be surprised, but she's giving it to them, whether it's the ridiculous obsession with keeping the kids clean or her other quirks -- she is putting it out there. No doubt. That said, there are some who insist on demonizing her to such an extent that she doesn't even appear human. She is flawed. But, she is also human and she loves her kids deeply. I believe she attempts to do her best for them.
"The business" is a deceptive one -there is a lot of catering and giving into whims - even on that level. Even the humblest of people get used to the pampering."
I have thought the same thing. Not that I believe all the bad behavior attributed to J&K (or even half of it), but if some of it is true, I think it's not unreasonable to assume that they may have been effected by the success of the show and how everything has changed so quickly for them. It must be very hard to stay grounded. I think it would be for me, anyway.
"I don't know, I think people either like them or don't - the ones that don't will see every action or inaction as evidence to their beliefs and those that do like them tend to gloss over them."
I think this is human nature. I have seen it a lot during the recent Presidential election! Once you get behind your "guy" or "gal", you sometimes become invested in protecting your opinion. That said, I think many of the people on this blog *do* have a balanced view of the Gosselins. We do NOT put them on a pedestal. We might "like" certain things about them and "not like" other aspects. We can't agree, however, with many of the tactics used by the anti-Gosselins - the stalking, the picking apart of every freakin thing they do, inserting themselves into family matters, etc. etc.
QUOTE But I guess I don't understand the phrase "all the hurt they have caused" because it suggests to me some deep pain (other than simple hurt feelings or offense) that the Gosselins have caused to multiple people, and I don't see that. Neither of them has killed anyone."
You don't have to kill someone to inflict hurt. In fact, the pain is only temporary. Fact is, hurting someone emotionally, adults and children alike, can cause lifelong pain. I'm sure all the grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins are in deep pain over the alienation, and the children's pain, while not so much now, as they are not aware, will manifest itself deeply in years to come.
but my guess is he is just not comfortable with emotion....
In other words, HE'S A GUY!
Sorry, didn't meant to slip into the dreaded "gender roles!"
You don't have to kill someone to inflict hurt. In fact, the pain is only temporary. Fact is, hurting someone emotionally, adults and children alike, can cause lifelong pain. I'm sure all the grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins are in deep pain over the alienation, and the children's pain, while not so much now, as they are not aware, will manifest itself deeply in years to come.
I think you are assuming that we know that J&K are estranged from all of these relatives, and that in each and every case it was solely J&K's fault. There is often some pain involved in family dynamics; but again, I think the phrase "all the hurt they have caused" is melodramatic, assumes facts not in evidence, and places all the onus on J&K. I also mistook what you said to mean that J&K had "hurt" other people - viewers or the people at GWoP, who after all, are the ones that are judging them so very harshly.
In other words, HE'S A GUY!
Sorry, didn't meant to slip into the dreaded "gender roles!"
I really hate to fall into gender stereotypes, because I know many guys (and women) who do not fit into these stereotypical roles. But I think the stereotypes exist for a reason, and I think Jon actually does fit into the stereotype of a guy who isn't very demonstrative or necessarily sensitive. Since I don't think Kate is a heart and flowers type either, this probably isn't usually a problem. But last night, a little sweetness would've been nice to see.
quote:
"You don't have to kill someone to inflict hurt. In fact, the pain is only temporary. Fact is, hurting someone emotionally, adults and children alike, can cause lifelong pain."
This is very true. IMO, Jon and Kate are also being hurt, in their own way. Maybe some of it is self-inflicted (from exposing their life on camera) but some of it is also from the nasty things people are saying in very public places.
Just because people think that Jon and Kate are in the wrong does not given them the right to hurt them with their words.
If Jon and Kate have done some nasty things, then I think karma will take care of that. The same goes for the people who say nasty things; karma will take care of it.
Do unto others....
On a somewhat different note, there were a number of cute moments last night:
*Jon waking up Alexis (in her SCARY basement bedroom) and Hannah. Alexis was beyond cute just waking up and Jon was very sweet and gentle with both of them.
*Cara is such a sweetheart. When Aaden was sent away from the NIC unit, Cara came over adjusted his glasses and gave him a pat.
*When they were in the condo and Kate commented to Aaden about how small he was the last time they stayed in the condo, he did a cute little dance around the table.
*Aaden again -- telling Kate she "was pretty" in the parking garage. Awww.
Baby Mama said...
Leave it up to GWOP to take a photo of the TV to show what Mady wrote about no cameras in the bathroom.
It wasn't the bathroom door, it was the twins homework room.
jax said...
About the sign - when my kids were Mady's age they sometimes put a note on their door saying "do not enter, unless invited" or "knock, first" or "so and so could not enter" Think it's just part of kids exercising their independence and creating their own space.
However the sign wasn't asking for privacy, it was telling the cameras to stay out. Not everyone, not certain people, but the cameras. And it even has picture of a camera with a line drawn through it. And Mady went out of her way to summon the cameraperson to the sign where she then shut the door in their face. If that's not an indication she's so over being filmed I don't know what is.
And this coming on the heels of the official website declaring the entire family chose to continue with the show. Was Mady outvoted or just ignored during the discussion?
Yes - I loved when Jon went to wake up Alexis and she was referring to herself in the third person and said "uh huh".
As much as I enjoy watching these children and I would miss seeing them grow on television, I wish for the show to end.
They are so precious and deserve to grown up without an audience.
If only their parents could see that too.
Anon 11:03 - Heather B did say that to Tami at a RW Reunion! I can't believe I remember that. But so true, so true!
Anon @ 3:33 p.m. said.....
"And Mady went out of her way to summon the cameraperson to the sign where she then shut the door in their face. If that's not an indication she's so over being filmed I don't know what is."
Could be, but Mady seems to run hot and cold. (I have a child like her so I can relate). Sometimes it seems like she wants to be the only one in front of the camera, other times(such as this episode), she appears to feel differently.
Assuming the sign was filmed on the day they were getting ready to go to the NIC unit, Kate made it clear in a voiceover that Mady was already unhappy about having to go to the hospital because she considered it another event centered around the sextuplets. She does have jealousy issues, which are completely understandable.
I am glad she feels she can put a sign up and it will be respected. While the request was very specific, I do see some truth in what others are saying that she is at an age where learning to write opens up the world of communication and she is probably (just a guess) putting signs all over the place.
That said, if I were J&K, I would continue to be attentive to changes in the twins and how they are handling both the cameras and the baggage that goes with being on a t.v. show.
To play devil's advocate, does the "fact" that Mady does not want the show to continue mean that the show shouldn't continue?
Don't get me wrong; certainly, I understand and agree with concerns that viewers have about the effect of the show on all of the Gosselin children. I am of no set mind myself, but I wouldn't say conclusively (actually, I don't think I've heard ANYONE say) that the show is absolutely fine and won't have any negative effect on the kids. I think it becomes a matter of weighing pros and cons, and right now, I feel that the situation is such that it should still be the Gosselins' call.
But I also think the happiness and well-being of the children should be taken into consideration (obviously). So, if Mady is not happy with the filming, that would weigh against continuing. BUT, does it necessarily mean that filming should be shut down tomorrow? Even if the other seven kids wanted to continue, and the parents felt that it was in the family's best interest to continue? Should the wishes of one rather capricous 7-year-old be seen as the final say on the matter?
Again, I'm not trying to discount Mady's feelings. But I think sometimes those who believe the show is harmful to the kids can get caught up in looking for those "aha!" moments, forgetting that most 7-year-olds do not have the sort of autonomy over their lives that these people feel the Gosselin children should be given.
Interesting article. I only find it interesting because it says J&K have been there before....wow, once again another thing not shown in TV. Which means that this may not have been the first donation to Ronald McDonald house.
http://www.gantdaily.com/news/43/ARTICLE/29329/2008-08-30.html
nomoredrama said...
http://www.gantdaily.com/news/43/ARTICLE/29329/2008-08-30.html
Me thinks the Gant Daily should be thanking their lucky stars right now that their website isn't enabled for comments! :)
Which means that this may not have been the first donation to Ronald McDonald house.
That may be possible, but I think if this was something she had done before, Kate would have for sure made it know. I think she also mentions how it took them four years to come back and they are in the position now to help.
Okay, wait a minute. Did Mady issue a press release saying that she no longer wants to participate on the show? Or is this another example of GWoPPERs reading into a situation and repeating it enough times so that it now becomes a fact?
Mady, clearly the most moody and demonstrative child in the house, makes no secret when she doesn't want to participate in something, especially something that is centered around the 'tups (birthday parties, Dutch Wonderland ect). The day of the NICU visit, her jealousy was directed at everyone and the camera guys were part of that. She also rudely corrected the doctor when he was talking about how rewarding it was to see that the hard work they do in the NICU results in happy, normal kids. "They're not normal!" she interrupted. Everyone laughed it off, but I saw it as rude, and something I hope J&K addressed with her later. Kids don't interrupt or correct adults, or try to show them up, especially the man who basically saved the lives of her brothers and sisters. Also, the lady that met the Gosselins at the door of the hospital and took them around. Was her name Sarah? At one point, she put her hand on top of Mady's head, as they walked down the hall and Mady jerked her head away and glared at the woman. This woman wasn't a stranger. Kate said this lady was her lifeline for 10 weeks as she was cooped up in the hospital, and the twins were there the whole time. Granted, maybe Mady didn't remember her, but I didn't see it as "hey, that stranger is touching my head." It was "Hey...NOBODY touches my head," which is fine. If she did not want the lady to touch her hair, she could have walked faster not made such a production about it and glared at an adult like that. Mady was clearly having a bad day and taking it out on everyone, not just the cameras. She didn't want the doctor saying anything nice about the tups, she didn't want oatmeal for breakfast, she didn't want the lady touching her hair, and she didn't want the cameras. Unlike Cara, who simply disappears when she doesn't feel like being filmed. Mady Dramatic makes a production out of it. It's who she is.
I saw her behavior as not wanting another day devoted to the tups, not an indictment about the show as a whole. She's seven. She's not that sophisticated yet.
Okay, wait a minute. Did Mady issue a press release saying that she no longer wants to participate on the show? Or is this another example of GWoPPERs reading into a situation and repeating it enough times so that it now becomes a fact?
Why are we discussing this here?
It seems that there are varied opinions here. No one said that the "sign" is an actual "sign" that Mady doesn't want to continue with the show. I want to dicuss the topic on hand - not whats happening elsewhere.
The Ronald McDonald House is an excellent cause. Pediatric cancer research is an excellent cause. So is The Jimmy Fund. It saddened me deeply that Jon did not take the time to support The Jimmy Fund when he spoke in Boston. Instead he sold photos for $20. Too little, too late.
Mady, clearly the most moody and demonstrative child in the house, makes no secret when she doesn't want to participate in something, especially something that is centered around the 'tups (birthday parties, Dutch Wonderland ect). The day of the NICU visit, her jealousy was directed at everyone and the camera guys were part of that. She also rudely corrected the doctor when he was talking about how rewarding it was to see that the hard work they do in the NICU results in happy, normal kids. "They're not normal!" she interrupted. Everyone laughed it off, but I saw it as rude, and something I hope J&K addressed with her later. Kids don't interrupt or correct adults, or try to show them up, especially the man who basically saved the lives of her brothers and sisters. Also, the lady that met the Gosselins at the door of the hospital and took them around. Was her name Sarah? At one point, she put her hand on top of Mady's head, as they walked down the hall and Mady jerked her head away and glared at the woman. This woman wasn't a stranger. Kate said this lady was her lifeline for 10 weeks as she was cooped up in the hospital, and the twins were there the whole time. Granted, maybe Mady didn't remember her, but I didn't see it as "hey, that stranger is touching my head." It was "Hey...NOBODY touches my head," which is fine. If she did not want the lady to touch her hair, she could have walked faster not made such a production about it and glared at an adult like that. Mady was clearly having a bad day and taking it out on everyone, not just the cameras. She didn't want the doctor saying anything nice about the tups, she didn't want oatmeal for breakfast, she didn't want the lady touching her hair, and she didn't want the cameras. Unlike Cara, who simply disappears when she doesn't feel like being filmed. Mady Dramatic makes a production out of it. It's who she is.
I saw her behavior as not wanting another day devoted to the tups, not an indictment about the show as a whole. She's seven. She's not that sophisticated yet.
IIRC there is someone on this board that really takes offense at name-calling - especially when it is directed toward the children. This person even takes offense to the word "brat".
IMO, that whole paragraph if you will, basically boils down to calling Mady a brat.
What I also get from this passage is that we shouldn't too much into Mady's behavior because "Mady's just being Mady". While I agree that Mady regardless of the cameras is more dramatic than her sister, I don't totally discount her feelings either. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned Mady requesting the "cameras" out - not privacy from her siblings. There's a difference.
Tell me, would you think the sign meant something different or would take it more seriously if Cara "the good twin" had written it?
um, anon 6:44, should they give to every fund that is out there? There are millions of charities. Furthermore, how do you know they haven't given to this fund? I'm not even sure what the Jimmy Fund is. Were they even aware of it?
Anonymous said...
"Why are we discussing this here?
It seems that there are varied opinions here. No one said that the "sign" is an actual "sign" that Mady doesn't want to continue with the show. I want to dicuss the topic on hand - not whats happening elsewhere."
I find these kinds of comments completely childish. We may not always be discussing what YOU may find interesting, but keep in mind that your topic or opinion is of no more importance than that of anyone else here.
And the comment about the Jimmy Fund means nothing to me because I already saw it on gwop. Isn't that sad? Something that very well could be fact and could, in some cases, change the way a person looks at the Gosselins is dismissed with an eyeroll when posted "elsewhere". For me, there is zero credibility there.
And I'm talking about it HERE because I can.
I find these kinds of comments completely childish. We may not always be discussing what YOU may find interesting, but keep in mind that your topic or opinion is of no more importance than that of anyone else here.
I was referring to what is being discussed on the other boards.
My comment was made to keep the comments directed to the topic on hand of this board - to refrain from mentioning what is happening elsewhere.
It seems if we cannot come up with a separate line of thinking - then that is more ammunition for the GWoppers, if you will, to say we have nothing interesting to discuss but them.
Sorry if this seemed childish to you, it seemed like a rational request.
I haven't read any of the other comments yet because I didn't want my feelings to be subconsciously or consciouly swayed by the others who have posted here.
I just finished watching this episode from my DVR.
I'm not a crier. I can count on one hand how many times I've cried in the last 10 years.
This episode made me tear up (but not a full on cry :) ).
You could really see the emotion and turmoil all this has had on Jon and Kate.
I feel for them.
They took a difficult situation and did the best with it - and I have to say, probably a WAY better job than I could have ever done. I think I would have just lost it if I were either one of them.
I wish them and their family the best.
Anon 9:07 nailed it all......
IMO, that whole paragraph if you will, basically boils down to calling Mady a brat.
No. I think YOU just called her a brat. I described her actions as shown on the show last night. YOU inserted the name calling. I refrained. The only thing close to calling her a name was "Mady Dramatic," which is a phrase her mother uses. In fact, she uses it to describer HERSELF on air as well, because Kate also is a Mady Dramatic at times. Putting words in other people's mouths may be a habit at a certain other site, but probably won't get you very far here.
Tell me, would you think the sign meant something different or would take it more seriously if Cara "the good twin" had written it?
Once again, YOU just called Cara "the good twin," I didn't. I said Mady was having a "bad day." You seem to be the one perpetuating the stereotypes that the blogosphere has put the twins into. And YES. If Cara was whining through the show and having a meltdown on camera (which yes, we have seen before), or being rude towards adults, I'd feel the same.
Actually, I never assumed that Mady was the twin who wrote the door sign, or the sign in the girl tup's bedroom that said "Dear Hananah and Leah, we clened (sic) your room for you." Cara could have written either one. By the way, has that sign been "decoded" by conspiracy theorists yet? Oh my GOD. It means that the twins are becoming obsessive clean freaks like their mother! Horrors! Call Paul Peterson, immediately!
t seems that there are varied opinions here. No one said that the "sign" is an actual "sign" that Mady doesn't want to continue with the show. I want to dicuss the topic on hand - not whats happening elsewhere."
Uhhh, yes. Someone else WAS assuming that, further up in the thread, which is what I was responding to. Someone who came over to argue hiding behind the veil of "anonymous," (just like you), said the following:
And Mady went out of her way to summon the cameraperson to the sign where she then shut the door in their face. If that's not an indication she's so over being filmed I don't know what is.
And this coming on the heels of the official website declaring the entire family chose to continue with the show. Was Mady outvoted or just ignored during the discussion?
Sounds like SOMEONE IS assuming that "Signgate" is a message that Mady is "so over" being on this show. I was sarcastically responding to that. My comments boil down to the fact that I think the sign was simply a message that she was having a BAD DAY. In other words, I didn't read as much into it as some over-invested people have.
Some of you guys really need to check the batteries on your sarcasm meters before you leave the safety of your Blog o'Hatred.
By the way, the Paul Peterson joke I made above was also sarcasm.
Brat:
a child, esp. an annoying, spoiled, or impolite child (usually used in contempt or irritation).
You may not have outright have called her one, but your words sure enough did.
Yesterday, I really thought this site was capable of civil, rational discussion. I guess not.
I just remembered you are the one who likes to tell people to shut their yap.
No wonder people prefer to hit and run. You, mcb, are the bully of this board, IMO.
Swopes,
This isn't my debate but I don't necessarily think it's fair to say that this "blog" is not capable of civilized discussion because you didn't like one poster's post.
I also don't think it's fair to call MCB a bully because she defended what she said. When people are defending and explaining their position, does that make them a bully?
Isn't the point of discussion and debate, just that? Geez.
We don't have to agree with others' opinions, but I think we do need to respect one another.
I was going to scroll up and read above, but decided to refrain.
The facts are we don't know who wrote the sign and kids will be kids.
Maybe the twins are sick of cameras, maybe they were in a bad mood that day, maybe maybe maybe. We can only speculate and in my opinion, this speculation can get a little personal and out of hand.
I am strongly against name calling and one reason I post here is because this seems to be a place where civil debates happen and opinions are respected.
Let's move forward.
I beg to differ - but mcb was also the one who accused someone of lying being a member of the secret group and was very nasty about it too.
Great episode! I love that J&K remember where their babies were placed in the NICU, and also telling about how the babies were named. To me, this show was much more personal than other shows, and while they didn't have to, J&K really let the viewers in on such an emotional and private part of their lives. It was really sweet to see them reminicse over their simpler days at the end of the episode.
Other thoughts:
Mady: This child has such a personality. Yes, sometimes she is more challenging, but she is very bright and I'm sure the dramatics will even out as she gets older. I think J&K handle her the best way that she needs to be handled. Sometimes this includes just letting her do her thing until she gets it out of her system.
Aaden's dance was so sweet ~ And Cara fixing his glasses was also really precious.
It was funny seeing all of those kids running around that small condo. It's true that kids really don't need much to be entertained. ;)
This isn't my debate but I don't necessarily think it's fair to say that this "blog" is not capable of civilized discussion because you didn't like one poster's post.
This has nothing to do with the dislike or disagreement of one person's post. You and I do not share the same opinions on certain issues, but we were able to discuss them without name calling. I am talking about the way we respond to one another (in general - other people other topics)
I also don't think it's fair to call MCB a bully because she defended what she said. When people are defending and explaining their position, does that make them a bully?
Please take the time and go back to read this chain, any chain, look to see where the tone of topic starts to change.
Unfortunately from past experience, I have a feeling where this is going to go.
"If you are so ignorant, you can't detect sarcasm..."
"If you don't like it.....you can go"
If you want to encourage balanced discussion, then please start addressing the correct response.
You (nomoredrama) admitted that you are a passionate person, regardless of how angry you are or how strongly you disagree, you have still managed to respond accordingly.
That cannot be said for some of the posters here.
Yes, there are trolls who hit and run, but among those "anon" comments there maybe a first time poster who is feeling out the waters before he/she commits to posting regularly or with an id.
When I addressed the blog as a whole, I meant, is is a post is going to be met with that type of response, then I think a lot of people who may really have interesting things to say will refrain from posting here.
Maybe that is what the goal is, to have a pool of posters who understand each others tone and don't care otherwise for those taht don't.
'If you want to encourage balanced discussion, then please start addressing the correct response.
I hope this blog doesn't end up being another TWoP, with every post being combed for the dread OT, subjects being decreed off limits, and adult people being chastised if they let their tone reflect any passion. Toward the end, it was like typing in handcuffs.
I wonder if the posters here can speak emphatically, and have discussions that do contain some passion, and not have dissenting posters recoil at the strength of the argument. Or even at a little sarcasm. It would be interesting to see if adult people can handle a strong discourse. That's what I think would make this a stimulating place.
I do agree about the name-calling. No one needs to call someone an idiot. Also, swopes, that would include you calling mcb a 'bully'. That breaks the rules you're trying to propose be respected here, so how does that help keep the discussion rational? It's that old teacher rule; address the behavior, instead of the person.
I am sure MCB will respond will the usual Pot. Kettle. Pot. Kettle
I too have seen the trend of this site. Maybe it was in poor taste to pinpoint a poster as a "Bully" - but there is a lot of "Bullying" on this site.
Some people here are quick to say they dislike GWoP for the name calling - but when it's done here (depending on who has done it) it's called "having an opinion".
Swopes, once again, I never said "brat" and I definitely never called anyone an idiot. Yet you and "anonymous" (who I'm assuming is also you?) are the ones reading into things, making accusations, and tossing the word "brat" and "bully" around. And what if I had called her that? Mady was behaving badly during this episode. Period. Her parents commented on it. So what? All kids can be brats at one time or another. It's not the same as calling her "oafish" or "Fatty Arbuckle," which are personal slams against the appearance of a Gosselin child which were made on the other board. Anyone can act like a brat. Heck, Kate acts like a brat at times. It's not a personal slam against the size of her arms, her hairstyle or the width of her booty (none of which I see a problem with, personally). It would be the same thing if after watching the cupcake episode or during the gum controversy, you thought Kate acted like a bitch, which she did. Many people called her that (and worse).
Saying that someone is acting like a brat (random child during any episode) or an ass (Jon, sometimes) or a bitch (Kate sometimes) is talking about behavior. Behaviors can be changed and we all lapse into those behaviors once in awhile. It's not the same as calling someone ugly, fat, or oafish, which is making fun of something that can't be changed or helped.
So, in conclusion, you're basically asking that we stop commenting on how Kate or Jon or any of the kids act because it's namecalling. Very convenient and a neat way to try to get this board to shut up. It would be kind of hard to comment on episodes if we can't critique how they're acting wouldn't it?
And yeah, totally agree with Tyra that turning this board into TWoP (or GWoP) is not the way to go and, truthfully, ISN'T EVEN CLOSE in either direction, which is the best part of it.
jdmac said...
"Great episode! I love that J&K remember where their babies were placed in the NICU, and also telling about how the babies were named."
Thanks for reminding me of that! I thought that was something interesting that I hadn't put together before, i.e. the boys and girls were named in alpha order (how organized, I wonder who came up with that idea?). And I agree with Kate, Aaden is Aaden, Alexis is Alexis. I can't imagine them with different names either!
"Mady: This child has such a personality. Yes, sometimes she is more challenging, but she is very bright and I'm sure the dramatics will even out as she gets older. I think J&K handle her the best way that she needs to be handled. Sometimes this includes just letting her do her thing until she gets it out of her system."
I agree! She is so very bright and articulate, but she is not an "easy" child. I don't think J&K get enough credit for the way they handle her. Of course, I have only seen what's on T.V., but they seem to handle her in a firm, but loving way. Even though they have reasonable expectations of behavior, they do seem to hear her out and sometimes just allow her "to do her thing" as you stated.
It may seem to some that I'm parsing words, but I see a difference between saying that someone is a brat and that someone is acting like a brat. Not that anyone necessarily said either thing (I'm a little confused on that point). But saying "Mady is a brat" seems like a harsh judgment. Saying "Mady acted bratty on Monday's show" seems like an observation, and IMO a fairly accurate one. Just as it's sometimes accurate to say Kate was being bitchy, but I have more of a problem with the bald statement "Kate is a bitch."
I really like Mady, but she's not an easy child. It's okay; some kids are easier than others. She has a lot of wonderful qualities as well. I don't judge a 7-year-old that harshly because her personality is her personality and at her age there really are limits to her self-control. If she still acted so volatile at 27, I'd be more apt to be judgmental.
I agree with Anya that J&K handle Mady very well for the most part. They often have a lot more patience with her than I can imagine having! I think they do make some allowances for her temperment, as well. People can be judgmental about that, too - if you see a parent not controlling a kid who is acting out, it's easy to think that the parent is too permissive. But I think one thing to remember about more high-maintenance kids is that you really have to pick your battles, if you don't want to be in opposition 24 hours a day. So I think J&K balance discipline with letting Mady be Mady as well as they can, from what I've seen.
As an aside, re accusations of bullying: in my experience, that word gets thrown out there when someone's opinions are challenged and they don't have any good response. I guess I don't understand on a board like this why anyone would feel bullied or intimidated. It's not like we're tracking people's home addresses down, like some people I could name. I think we do get passionate sometimes (some of us are more prone to this than others), but I think that there's enough balance and civility that if you feel bullied, it's either your choice to feel that way, or you're extremely sensitive.
And now for something entirely different. Caution, I am speaking of puberty, butts and mood swings. if you are offended, best look away.
I was thinking last night about the twins and them possibly becoming sick of the cameras. They are creeping up upon that age where they will, frankly, start acting like teenagers. They'll be eight years old in October, right? that's three to four years away from PMS and mood swings. I've heard many moms of daughters remarking how their daughters seem to be hitting that moody age earlier and earlier. Oh, I'd hate to be Jon and Kate when the twins are 17 and the girl tups are 13. Aaden, Collin and Joel may ask to move their room to the basement just to get away from the estrogen.
Back to the cameras. When the Roloff's were on Oprah, they mentioned that the cameras are never in Molly's room, and I don't believe we've ever seen Matt and Amy's room, either. We have seen the Roloff twin's and Jake's rooms. But, I actually think we see them for the sheer shock value of the sight of them. You need a Bobcat to plow a path through the debris if you ever want to see the floor. It's a disaster area. It's horrifying, yet hilarious and also something that gets the viewers attention (which in turn gets discussed on message boards, which is the intent). Is Amy too soft on them, is she a bad parents because she doesn't make them clean up after themselves, are they spoiled brats, ect. Molly is a teenage girl and they need their privacy, so not putting cameras in there is a good thing, IMO. The boys don't seem to care one way or the other.
I think that as the Gosselins have aged, that there are now "no film zones" in their house. We only saw the twins new room when it was being remodeled and once since then, when they left a clue for the Valentine's Day scavenger hunt in there. There is no overhead production lighting in the twins room. It seems that they have decided that that is their safe haven, which is a good thing. Also, Jon and Kate's bedroom door is usually closed, and also has no production lighting. According to Kate, she never makes the bed, and that's probably the original reason the door was kept closed, but we have gotten occasional glimpses (Mother's Day, carpet installation day, and answering viewer e-mail show). But, usually, that door is shut and the cameras don't enter. I remember one episode where Mady stormed in, kicked her book bag and stomped into her parent's room and slammed the door. A few minutes later she emerged, as if nothing was wrong, perfectly happy. Kate commented that sometimes, she just needs some down time to herself and cooling off in her parent's room is what she needed. Jon and Kate's room seems to be an off-limits filming area, now. Also, a good thing.
Bathrooms go without saying. The tups aren't little babies, anymore, when it's considered cute to show them playing in a bathtub. And spare me the GWoP talking point about it being indecent no matter how old they are. You mean to tell me that none of you took photos of your babies in bathtubs or nekkid in a swimming pool? I do have a nekkid booty shot of my then one year old in a kiddie pool. That's blackmail material now. However, the age seems to have passed on the Gosselin tup's booty and potty shots. The bathroom should now be off limits, as well.
And no, I really didn't see the harm in Aaden's plumber's butt being shown a couple weeks ago. It was funny.
Sorry, I like misspelling naked as "nekkid." Kind of makes it less taboo to say.
I am sure MCB will respond will the usual Pot. Kettle. Pot. Kettle
SMOOCH. Love you, too!
MCB said... "Saying that someone is acting like a brat (random child during any episode) or an ass (Jon, sometimes) or a bitch (Kate sometimes) is talking about behavior. Behaviors can be changed and we all lapse into those behaviors once in awhile. It's not the same as calling someone ugly, fat, or oafish, which is making fun of something that can't be changed or helped.
So, in conclusion, you're basically asking that we stop commenting on how Kate or Jon or any of the kids act because it's namecalling. Very convenient and a neat way to try to get this board to shut up. It would be kind of hard to comment on episodes if we can't critique how they're acting wouldn't it?"
Speaking for myself, MCB, I very much agree with the distinction you are making. I try very hard not to put labels on any of the Gosselins (unless it's something harmless, like calling Alexis "sassy"!). I will describe the *behavior* I am seeing and I will use appropriate adjectives - some of which may have a negative connotation - but I steer away from calling names of any kind.
I also *try* to not use derogatory terms to other posters on this board or the other one, although I will say call a spade a spade and I have no problems calling the other board "a hate board", for example.
From what I have seen, the regular posters here who attach a name to their posts excercise the same courtesy. It's one of the reasons I keep posting and reading this board.
Yet you and "anonymous" (who I'm assuming is also you?) are the ones reading into things, making accusations, and tossing the word "brat" and "bully" around. And what if I had called her that? Mady was behaving badly during this episode.
Please don't assume things. I don't know who the other poster is. I have been posting anonymously because I choose to, after certain events have ocurred.
One being when you accused me of being a member of the secret society,among other things.
And what if I had called her that?
IIRC there is someone on this board that really takes offense at name-calling - especially when it is directed toward the children. This person even takes offense to the word "brat".
Some people here are quick to say they dislike GWoP for the name calling - but when it's done here (depending on who has done it) it's called "having an opinion".
MCB and guinevere, I so agree on the brat/bitch vs bratty/bitchy subject. I do often see Mady (and Alexis!) as acting like a brat, and sometimes Kate acts bitchy. Jon acts grouchy at times. I am not calling anyone names, just calling behavior as I see it in my opinion. I enjoy being able to post on a board that allows for all opinions.
On other boards, I see a tendency to excuse Mady's behavior as being a product of "poor parenting", of "abuse", you know all the rest. I personally see her behavior as a product of the kid's own personality. She seems jealous of the younger kids, has tantrums when she doesn't get things her way... and heaven knows Kate is busy enough trying to control the little ones without having to deal with drama-queen behavior from an older one. I'm not a big Kate fan, but anyone with 8 kids has to share her time with all the kids and not focus on one whose nose is out of joint because she can't get her own way.
On other boards, I see a tendency to excuse Mady's behavior as being a product of "poor parenting", of "abuse", you know all the rest. I personally see her behavior as a product of the kid's own personality. She seems jealous of the younger kids, has tantrums when she doesn't get things her way... and heaven knows Kate is busy enough trying to control the little ones without having to deal with drama-queen behavior from an older one. I'm not a big Kate fan, but anyone with 8 kids has to share her time with all the kids and not focus on one whose nose is out of joint because she can't get her own way.
And the thing is, Kate acknowledges (and seems to regret) that Mady doesn't get the attention she needs at times. My sister likened her to one of those cats at the SPCA that has a comment card saying they do best being the only cat in the house. I don't think Mady would necessarily need or want to be an only child, but her jealousy issues and need to be center stage are in conflict with the fact that she has sextuplet siblings. That's just the way it is, and I do think J&K deal with it as best they can. They can give Mady extra attention, but I think there is a limit to that, given that they have eight kids. Also, it's not necessarily fair to quieter kids like Cara to get less attention simply because they aren't loud about demanding it. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and all that. I think it's a balancing act that J&K attempt to maneuver as well as they can. I don't agree that Mady is the way she is due to poor parenting - if it weren't part of Mady's inherent personality to be dramatic and volatile, then how come all of the Gosselin children aren't like her?
Have mercy....
One being when you accused me of being a member of the secret society,among other things.
Something that was corrected over a month ago and never brought up again, except by you, oddly enough.
Please don't assume things. I don't know who the other poster is. I have been posting anonymously because I choose to, after certain events have ocurred.
Thus the reason I used a question mark in the original post. Anyone who posts under "anonymous" is bound to be lumped in together. Yet, you take offense to it when convenient and use it to confront people with.
Sorry guys. It's like watching a puppy chase its own tail. I tried to change the subject and post about the show, but the accusations just keep on coming. And I'm sorry, but if you attack me, I'm going to defend myself (and thanks to the regulars here who have spoken up on my behalf).
Now, onto more interesting stuff. Nancy and Guinevere commenting on Mady and whether her behavior is the result of bad parenting. I agree with both of you. I don't think that's the case. I think J&K do the best they can most of the time. As one of you mentioned, she's one of eight children, and six of those kids were born at the same time. Their mother was in the hospital for 10 weeks during the pregnancy. When she finally did come home, she brought six loud, poopy, attention grabbers with her (not at once, of course). Older children are frequently jealous of younger sibs. Imagine six at once? It's bound to have an effect.
Throw that into the mix that Mady has Kate's DNA. HELLO? (tm Kate) The apple didn't fall far from the drama tree, here. Cara seems to have inherited Jon's more laid back personality, but like her dad, when she melts down, LOOK OUT. It all comes to the surface at once, something that they've discussed on the show. Mady is more like Kate, Cara is more like Jon. Mady (and Alexis) have high maintenance personalities. They like being the center of attention. This may also require more hands-on parenting through their childhoods. Cara needs to be pushed more (like Jon). Hannah, too. The need to be shoved out of bed. They're quiet. Hannah is more clingy, while Cara will go to another room where the cameras and her siblings aren't, to be by herself.
I have a thought. Instead of posting anon, just make up a name and be consistent with it when you post.
Better yet, sign up for a free gmail account and you can have a login name (doesn't require any person info) that way there is no confusion.
MCB said...
"Throw that into the mix that Mady has Kate's DNA. HELLO? (tm Kate) The apple didn't fall far from the drama tree, here."
Your comment made me laugh. There is truth here.
That's the thing about kids - they sometimes end up with our personalities and quirks! I was a moody teenager, difficult to please. Guess what I got - a moody teenager, difficult to please.
The circle of life!
Mady also has Kate's sharp wit (Jon has this to a certain degree to). While some may not appreciate this in a 7-year-old and she should be counseled when she uses it inappropriately, it showcases her intelligence, in my opinion. The things that come out of her mouth. I have to remind myself she's only 7-years-old she is so expressive.
I liked seeing the softer side of Kate on this episode! A couple of things I didn't think were so great?
That sign Madi put up broke my heart :(
I don't agree with a whole family of 10 traipsing through a NICU ward, and into an O.R. where they put their hands all over sterile equipment. It was absolutely wrong of the hospital to allow that. Imagine having your preemie in there and watching a gaggle of dirty handed, healthy kids come through there, when you have a problem getting even an additional family member in there and then have to scrub up for 5 minutes just to touch your fragile ailing baby. I would feel outright offended if I was a parent in there. Shame on the hospital! Money talks I guess, a sad commentary on the business of medicine.
I'm not being sarcastic when I ask this. I'm really asking out of ignorance...
The kids were always about 10 feet from the actual babies in the NICU. Like when the nurse was holding the baby, they stood in the doorway. Are preemies that sensitive that even being that far away, and even in their isolate they could have still been put at risk?
Would the hospital risk being sued by a dozen parents for J & K. I guess I kind of doubt it but I've never experienced the NICU myself.
IIRC, they didn't actually go into the NICU room, they were looking in behind a glass wall.
The sign Mady put up didn't faze me at all because my kids did the same thing. My daughter had a "no boys allowed" sign on her door to keep my son out of her room. No big deal IMO.
Oh yes, preemies have very low resistance to germs and infections, which is why the kids were kept at a safe distance. I remember the TLC/DH show about the Healy's. When they brought their preemie twins home from the NICU, they sat the 11 older kids down and explained that they had to use alcohol on their hands before they touched the twins and that the least little infection could be fatal.
As far as the hospital allowing them in there, the Gosselins were the biggest public relations coup that hospital ever had. Jon and Kate didn't go to a larger hospital in Philly or travel to a well known pediatric hospital in another part of the country. They went to Hershey. The front page of the papers from the day the tups were born are framed and hanging on the walls there. Most likely, they were excited to see them again, and to also get some more good publicity by appearing on TLC.
I'm sure that operating theatre was sterilized within an inch of its life once eight germy kids left, too. At least the next patient certainly hopes so! ;)
Back to the Signgate.
I was turning around last night and saw they were re-running "Labor Day". I caught the first few minutes again and paid a little more attention to the sign scene this time around.
Over the last couple of days, many have been portraying this as a "cry for help." Another poster said that Mady had slammed the door in the cameraman's face (as if he were stalking her with the camera).
What I saw: Mady came out of the homework room, and very purposely summoned the cameraman over to the door with a "look at this" signal and then closed the door (not right in his face, however).
While some of this is open to interpretation, of course, I think the reality is a little different than many have been portraying it.
To me, Mady wanted EVERYONE to know that she was in a bad mood and wanted to be left alone.
Another Gosselin poster said "Mady was so over the cameras". I don't think so. If she wanted to hide out from them, she could. Instead, she sought them out to show them her sign. I understand some people's concern about the cameras and the effect on the kids, but to me her behavior reminded me of the times my daughter has cried VERY LOUDLY from another room so I was sure to hear her and know her misery. My daughter has also put these type of signs up on her door. It is usually after we have argued and it's a way to get a last word in about how ANGRY she is.
All and all, much ado about nothing, in my opinion.
""I'm not being sarcastic when I ask this. I'm really asking out of ignorance...
The kids were always about 10 feet from the actual babies in the NICU. Like when the nurse was holding the baby, they stood in the doorway. Are preemies that sensitive that even being that far away, and even in their isolate they could have still been put at risk?""
Yes, some preemies are indeed that sensitive and that's why hospitals have strict protocols regarding the NICU. At least 2 of the kids crossed the painted line on the floor and IIRC 1 of the boys touched a couple of items. The likelyhood of transmission is low, but ANY exposure except by immediate family is avoided because the possibility exists. You just never know. A nurse or relative could touch the door frame or an item that had been touched by one of the kids and then touch the baby. Aside from that, the hospital has a responsibility to protect the mental state of families who have a critical baby there. The last thing parents with a sick or dying baby want to see is a gaggle of beautiful, healthy, noisy children in an area that should be calm, private and serene.
""Would the hospital risk being sued by a dozen parents for J & K. I guess I kind of doubt it but I've never experienced the NICU myself.""
Apparently they would. Hospitals are very eager to get funding any way they can, sometimes at the risk of the health of the patients (as we have just seen). The problem of nosocomial infection is the single biggest challenge hospitals and patients face today. In many cases the left hand doesn't know (or care) what the right is doing, and sometimes what is allowed by the PR/funding department is shocking and not condoned by the regular medical staff.
""I'm sure that operating theatre was sterilized within an inch of its life once eight germy kids left, too. At least the next patient certainly hopes so! ;)""
I certainly hope so too. The risk is not acceptable IMO considering the risk of nosocomial infection. The trip into the OR was worse IMO than a couple of tups crossing the line into a NICU room. Note: This ISN'T J&K's fault, but it was absolutely unacceptable from a medical point of view. The Dr. who interrupted them looked surprised and like he was covering up annoyance IMO. The staff will be inconvenienced, the OR cannot be used by a critical patient until sterilized, and the risk of contamination still exists even after supposed sterilization (DR's do not even enter the OR unless scrubbed and wearing protective gear). It is just a disgusting display of the commercialism of medicine, and yes, you can bet they were given a donation by TLC/figure 8 to allow it.
Again this wasn't J&K's fault, but it was a mistake to allow that and certainly shocking for anyone who has a medical background and understands the risks to see.
Other than that, the episode was charming and very nice I thought.
Anonymous said at 1:26 pm...
"Aside from that, the hospital has a responsibility to protect the mental state of families who have a critical baby there. The last thing parents with a sick or dying baby want to see is a gaggle of beautiful, healthy, noisy children in an area that should be calm, private and serene."
Anon, you make some very valid points. Although I enjoyed the episode a lot, I am starting to lean toward your side -- i.e., that the hospital was a bit starstruck and too quick to disregard their normal protocols in order to accomodate the show.
Thanks for an enlightening post.
My sister likened her to one of those cats at the SPCA that has a comment card saying they do best being the only cat in the house.
Oh, and if that isn't the saddest, most cruel thing I have ever read here...............
Gawd, you do realize that she will be able to read that comment one day!?!?!?
Anonymous September 4, 2008 2:18 PM said...
"Oh, and if that isn't the saddest, most cruel thing I have ever read here...............
Gawd, you do realize that she will be able to read that comment one day!?!?!?
Read HERE? Um, I don't think so, but that's your opinion. I think the comment was meant to illustrate that Mady might have done better in a single child or perhaps one sibling home. It wasn't in the cards, however, and she will be fine. I probably would have done "better" with parents who provided more consistent and loving structure, but I survived and so will Mady! Nobody was comparing Mady to a stray cat for pete's sake!
Now, if you really want to read some "cruel" prose, I have a blog just for you!
Never mind. I don't want to give their hateful rantings more publicity than they already get!
Yeah, I would not have passed it on if I thought it was cruel at all. The point is that Mady may have a temperment better suited to being part of a small family, one in which she could get more attention. That's not the way the cards were dealt, and Mady and her parents are going to have to deal with that. It's not a criticism of her in any way.
In fact, one could argue that being as we never really know how things will turn out, it might be a blessing in disguise. Maybe it will temper some of Mady's need to be the center of attention. Maybe if she had been an only child she would have really ended up spoiled. Who really knows? She's a bright, lovable kid who just happens not be easy-going. I think she has a lot going for her.
Anon 1:26,
That was really helpful, thanks, I honestly didn't even realize it was a problem. Now I know..and it makes me kind of thankful that I haven't had to experience having a baby born prematurely or have family and friends experience. It makes me grateful.
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