Sunday, September 21, 2008

I’ll Take My Sanity over your…….

Submitted for post by Anya.

I am inspired by a post at GWoP. Wait, hold on, there's more coming....

The post I speak of? Why it's -- "I'll Take My Hurricane over your Miserable Life."

Lest I be accused of being insensitive, let me stress that I do have the greatest sympathy for the victims of Hurricane Ike. They aren't getting much attention because of this pesky financial meltdown we are going through, but I understand there are good people suffering and for that I am very sorry. I am a Californian, and while we are good for a real shaker every 10 years or so, I have thankfully not suffered a true loss at the hands of Mother Nature (yet). So I acknowledge that I can't truly comprehend what you are going through.

That said, I just don't understand what this natural catastrophe has to do with the Gosselins?!? I do grasp that many have been without electricity for a week and the Gosselins got to....go to "Sight and Sound" theater without paying one red cent!!! (That was SO unfair, by the way).

Or maybe the "issue" has to do with perceived ingratitude as one blunt poster put it:

"We have all learned she is a nasty piece of work. Now do something useful with reality and go to the hurricane victims (and throw in a few military families) give some of those freebies and spa days to the people that will be grateful and gracious."

Umm, ok. Not sure why this is specifically directed at the Gosselins (I mean Kate - aka, "the nasty piece of work"), but, of course, I agree those who can afford to should think about giving. On that note, Julia Roberts, Tom Cruise, Oprah, Bill Gates AND Kate Gosselin - I really think it's high time that you guys give something back. And, of course, we will want to see the cancelled checks.

Since we have now been enlightened regarding the Gosselins’ lack of effort in assisting the hurricane victims, it might be interesting to discuss other ways in which they are contributing to society's downfall and/or ruining our lives.

I'll start: Kate ALMOST made me miss my train yesterday morning. After my shower, I fell back into bed for a few minutes and turned on my DVR. I happened upon an episode I hadn't seen in a while and 5 minutes turned into 10. Darn that Kate Gosselin!!!! If I get fired, I know whose fault it will be!

155 comments:

Nina Bell said...

Kate is causing me to spend way to much time on the computer and away from my family. They are not getting the attention they deserve and the hot meals that use to grace our table.If my husband asks for a dviorce, I know this is Kate's fault.

AgainAnonymous said...

As someone who has lived through the aftermath of many hurricanes, large and small, I think I have some perspective on what the good people of Texas (and Cuba and Haiti, by the way) are going through. No one envies them the time, effort, expense and inconvenience of recovering from a natural disaster.

That being said, I never looked at someone on TV (powered by a generator for weeks in the aftermath) living their everday lives as I was going through my own version of "hell" and said, "How dare you go on with your lives when mine is so crappy right now?!"

I wouldn't get mad at Jane Doe in Wyoming or John Doe in California for not pitching in, so why in the name of all things holy would I give a crap what a person on a reality TV show did or didn't do to help me? Or that their questionable family relationships were so lacking in comparison to the kumbaya atmosphere I was experiencing as part of the cumulative suffering of my community?

Honestly, to me this just shows a severe example of the misguided anger, if not hatred, many of us have seen among detractors of the show. This kind of rant in the midst of their own procliamed misery (when one would think their thoughts and concerns would be so far from J & K discussions as to make all earlier posting on the subject seem highly irrelevant) screams obsessive thought to the point of sickness.

I feel for those who are suffering in the aftermath of these storms...I know how hard it is. But when it's been me and my neighbors pitching in to help each other, I never found myself with the time to continue with any "everyday" concerns (if the collapse of civilization via the Gosselins can be considered a valid concern), let alone unplug the fridge to power up a laptop on a generator (soooo bad for your computer, by the way) in order to continue the Hate Parade.

If ever the phrase, "Get a life," was appropriate, this is a fine example.

delurkerloo said...

Honestly, to me this just shows a severe example of the misguided anger, if not hatred, many of us have seen among detractors of the show.

I've read comments around the internet about Kate and often found myself taken aback by the incredulous outrage. All I can think when I read some of these comments is whoever this person is they need to find out the real source of their anger or they'll never be truly happy. It's actually really sad and the more misplaced anger I see the more sorry I feel for them.

MCB said...

Good GOD. There are posters at GWoP that are seriously unhinged. To make any comparison to victims of a hurricane and the Gosselins and fault them for going on with their lives is ludicrous. Aside from the fact that whatever we've seen on TV episodes of J&K+8 have been filmed BEFORE Hurricanes Gustav and Ike. WTF? Seriously, tell me where this show has ANYTHING to do with the hurricanes.

Besides, once again, how do we know that J&K haven't made a charitable donation to the Red Cross, or sent clothing to victims? Just because they didn't announce it? Even if they did mention the donation to satisfy a bunch of bitching Internet pea hens, hell bent on making their lives miserable, the minions at GWoP would just turn it around and say the Gosselins were bragging, or use their catch-all phrase that describes anything nice that happens on the show: "damage control."

comesclean said...

My take on why there is so much hate directed toward Jon and Kate: A lot of people helped them - financially and otherwise. I think mostly everyone can recognize how expensive anything x8 can be.

When the stories about how they always had money of there own, Kate is unappreciative, the nurse thing, etc came out - people got pissed, even the ones who never helped them. Do they have a right to? Are the stories even confirmed?

I don't know. But I can see where people are going to get mad. Yes, people get over everyday, but when it's flaunted in your face every week, (I know the logical answer would be to turn off the television) people are bound to get mad - especially if the stories are true.

Now, before I get flamed for using the word "flaunted", I don't know about you all, but most of the things the Gosselins do, are really a "rare treat" for my family.

My issue - I don't think they really "tried" being self-sufficient. They both had jobs that they quit. I think that speaking engagements are a better route to supplementing their income (without mispresenting their situation) because at least that doesn't involve the kids.

Putting them on display, the show, regardless of whether you think it's being exploitive, didn't need to happen.

Just my 2 cents.

Guinevere said...

Honestly, to me this just shows a severe example of the misguided anger, if not hatred, many of us have seen among detractors of the show.

ITA. And in a way, I can relate. Years ago, I hated a particular woman a great deal (with good reason). I've since moved on, gotten over it, etc. But at the time, I remember reaching my low point when I was wearing a pair of uncomfortable shoes, and the thought drifted through my head, "The pain in my feet is X's fault." Of course, it had nothing to do with X; I just had so much anger towards her that whenever anything went wrong in my life, it brought up my intense hostility towards her.

Of course, the difference here is that I did have a reason to hate X (not a right, perhaps, but at least a reason). These people have NO reason to hate J&K the way that they do. They don't know them, and J&K have never done anything that would have the slightest effect on their lives. To pick out J&K as uniquely able but unwilling to help the suffering of the world is ridiculous. Partly because with all that has been said, we don't know for a fact what their charitable donations have been, anyway.

Linda said...

The next thing that you know, people will be blaming Kate for the following:

*Global warming

*War in Iraq

*Continued Unrest in the Middle East

*Roller Coaster week on Wall Street

*John Edwards affair

blah, blah, blah, blah, etc.

Mom said...

Anya - thanks for your post. I'm sure there are so many things in my life that are Kate's fault, I can't begin to count them - LOL!

MCB - I agree - non of really know what is in their bank account, who they write checks to, how much money is set aside for the kids, etc. We never will - well maybe with the tups are 18. But, until then, it is all speculation.

Comesclean - I think you bring up a good point about being self-sufficient. Again, who really knows. It seems perhaps they were self-sufficient (my definition here being 'regular 9-5 income' not the regular 'reality series income')during the first few filmings of them. Sure they had help. I think most families who have multiples have help from family, extended family, fellow church-goers, etc. My bet is, even if J worked a regular 9-5 and K stayed home, they were living paycheck to paycheck between groceries, mortgage, etc. I can't begin to imagine what their insurance must cost. My family's health insurance costs my H almost $280 per paycheck - which is every two weeks. I'm sure J didn't make an over abundant amount of money, so deduct insurance, taxes, etc. and you're probably left with enough to pay your bills and groceries. (sorry for the ramble).

We are all just speculators in the big bad world of J & K. Of course there are a few insiders, but non of them, with the exception of J verifying her sis' blog to be true, have really stepped up to the plate.

Thanks again Anya for a nice post!

lurkeyhere said...

Speaking of giving to charity, has everyone seen the latest comments on the Gosselin family sightings thread at GWoP? It seems they had a garage sale at a local church, and let people pay to take pics with the kids, to donate money to childhood cancer.

Sounds like a great idea, huh? Giving to a deserving charity, giving publicity to said charity, teaching the kids to give back to other kids who don't have it so good? No, no, it's disgusting and crass and bad parenting and disgusting. And DISGUSTING!

They didn't pay for those clothes so how dare they sell them .(Even for a good cause.) They are making the kids work. (Again, for a good cause. They are getting to the age where they can understand helping others. And if someone wanted to take pictures of my kids for a worthy cause, go right ahead.) And, my personal favorite, it's all right for them to donate, but they should do so quietly. (So we can complain that they don't give back.)

And, of course they were filming it,so they are really getting paid to donate money. (And every time the episode airs, people will be reminded of the charity.)

It's all Kate's fault that these people are driving me crazy!

lurkeyhere said...

P. S. I forgot the all important DAMAGE CONTROL!
Disgusting Damage Control!
There, I feel better.

scarfoot said...

I'm glad to see that I wasn't the only one to think the hurricane post was a little bit over the top. Don't get me wrong - I am extremely sympathetic to those affected by these tragedies. But to find a way to twist that around into more negativity against the Gosselins is incredible.

I'm going to blame Kate for how long it takes me to read about organic foods, and organic farming. And also, when I shop, it takes me a little longer to read about food ingredients and think about the path that food took to get to the grocery store. Thanks a lot, Kate!!! If she hadn't talked about it so much, I might not have looked into it. ;)

MCB said...

It seems they had a garage sale at a local church, and let people pay to take pics with the kids, to donate money to childhood cancer.

Sounds like a great idea, huh? Giving to a deserving charity, giving publicity to said charity, teaching the kids to give back to other kids who don't have it so good? No, no, it's disgusting and crass and bad parenting and disgusting. And DISGUSTING!


And they're complaining about this? SERIOUSLY? What a bunch of hypocritical jagbags. Isn't this what they've been "suggesting" in their own crass, bullying way all this time? That the Gosselins should give back and give the freebies to charity? So, they basically sell the free clothes they've outgrown and the toys they don't use and have all the money go to cancer research and the GWoPPERS are complaining? Before, they raised the roof thinking that the Gosselins were selling all this stuff at a consignment shop (for profit). So, now they hear the Gosselins are doing exactly what they long suggested, and it's suddenly a bad thing?

Talk about looking for something to bitch about.

I'm sure the cancer charity that benefitted from the Gosselins generosity was extremely grateful. And as a person who has lost a mother, grandmother, greatgrandmother, a couple aunts, and an uncle to cancer and currently has a cousin with brain cancer, I say THANK YOU JON AND KATE.

comesclean said...

What a bunch of hypocritical jagbags.

IMO that's why they are complaining. Someone in another thread, mentioned something about altruism not being "in their nature".

I don't think this had to be "filmed". If you are truly kind, no one needs to know (this includes Jon and Kate). Even if someone accuses you of not "giving back" - you say "oh well" - you know that you give.

Damage control, whatever you want to call it - if it's not something they would do on their own (which I suspect there is a lot) - it's fake and insulting to the viewer.

Fanny said...

No one really knows why the G's chose to do this. I guess it could have been an idea from figure8/TLC, but it is just as likely that it was something the G's WANTED to do. Besides, does it really matter WHY they did it? I think that there are a lot of people who donate to charities because they feel it is the "PC" thing to do, not necessarily because they just felt so compelled to do so. Does that make their donations any less helpful to the cause?

What bothers me the most is that this is what the "haters" have been begging for for so long. They want to see Kate(after all, it really is JUST Kate, right?) be a better, nicer, less organized(?) person, and most of all they want her to give back the way others have given to her. Okay, done. Why can't they at least say, "Well, that's a start."?


I think the better the G's look, the less they have to talk about.

Fanny said...

Oh, and in light of the G's recent good will, I feel that I should be giving more to charity, but with the economy being what it is today, I have little money to spare and I feel a little guilty. Damn you, Kate.

anya said...

Thanks, Lurkeyhere. :-)

That's one of the more entertaining posts in quite a number of days (weeks?). Who would have thought that Alan Rickman and Ewan McGregor would be mentioned on a J&K blog!? And suddenly the production company is called Figure 7? Have we lost a Gosselin kid? Was Alexis left in the basement by accident?

Comesclean -- on a more serious note, I do understand your point of view, but don't you kind of think the Gosselins are in a no-win position? They have people blogging that they are getting all these freebies and not giving anything back. They base this assumption on not seeing 'proof' (film) of them giving back in any way. When they do give back (whose idea it was, we really don't know), they are accused of "damage control" and doing it only for the cameras.

Personally, I agree with others. I think this is excellent lesson for the kids to learn about giving back, especially in light of all the fun places we have seen them get to go to over the summer. They didn't look thrilled to be there? Oh well. Kids get dragged to lots of places they don't want to go. They weren't "working", they were learning about the value of sharing what you have with others and contributing to those in need.

anya said...

Linda said...
The next thing that you know, people will be blaming Kate for the following:


*Global warming

*War in Iraq

*Continued Unrest in the Middle East

*Roller Coaster week on Wall Street

*John Edwards affair

Well, Linda, the first three can CLEARLY be ascribed to the Gosselin's huge carbon footprint. I mean the van alone.....

nomoredrama said...

There is nothing the Gosselins can do to win. If they give publicly, it's tacky and "damage control." If they give privately, they are accused of not giving.

Even if they put the provisions in place to ensure that the kids are being protected, not being filmed too long, and money is going to them, I have a feeling it would not be the end. The bottom line is people want this show off of the air for no other reason than their dislike of the family matriarch.

Linda said...

Yes, the van. I was just driving my own mini-van and I thought ....

"That Kate Gosselin. Her van fits 15 and mine only fits 7! Damn her!"

=====================

Comesclean -

My kids are in elementary school. I do remember that life became alot easier once my kids passed age 4. Sure I looked past the needs of my own family during that time, but I'll admit that it wasn't easy and I didn't do it regularly.

Perhaps I can relate to the Gs position because I had a few family members who judged my every move during that time. I either was not attentive enough or when I was attentive it was, in their words, "All for show."

And when my life circumstances changed, the persons moved on to another person to judge.

My point with all of this is that I find that there are always pot stirrers in life. I don't know what it is exactly that motivates people like the Gwoppers, et al to judge others so excruciatingly but they are there.

Seriously, how nuts is it to demand that the Gs "give back" . . . . to berate them constantly for their self-centeredness . . . to challenge them to think of others and pay it forward . . . and now when they demonstrate it . . . they are accused of damage control.

It's nuts. It's pretty darn nuts.

lurkeyhere said...

I hope that all the GWoPers watching the Emmy awards are writing letters of complaint to the businesses who provided goods and services for the goody bags given to the nominees and participants.
Talk about people who don't need more stuff given to them...

(And there's a cert. for a spa in there. I'll bet greedy grasping Kate is DEMANDING that her show be nominated next year so she can get one.)

Guinevere said...

It's totally Kate's fault that stayed up late drinking with colleagues on a business trip Friday night, got two hours sleep, and felt horrendous yesterday. I'm not sure exactly how it's her fault, but it totally is. Thanks a lot for the hangover, Kate!

Guinevere said...

Seriously though, in response to the garage sale business - I had meant to post on the Damage Control thread a variation of what I think I said in last week's episode thread. It pretty much parrots what's already been said here, but I just have to say, I don't know how people justify to themselves making such harsh judgments on Kate Gosselin's behavior, going to the point of posting about things you wish she'd do differently, and then when you actually see her acting more the way you supposedly want her to, being actually OUTRAGED about it and screaming damage control. I mean, how does someone justify such thinking to themselves? They need to stop pretending that there is anything she can do that would make them remotely happy.

comesclean said...

I don't know what it is exactly that motivates people like the Gwoppers, et al to judge others so excruciatingly but they are there.

I think if Jon and Kate chose to stop the show and or it gets cancelled, they will still have more money than most of us. If they don't, then they will just go back to work (gasp). Either way, they will be just fine.

You want my honest opinion? I think in addition to stopping the show, what will satisfy the GWOPpers - is for Kate to admit to the entitlement, the freebies, the admission that they are not a typical family. If she did, I bet there will still have enough of the fan base to keep the show going. Maybe it would even quell the GWOPpers, because after all, if you still watch knowing what you know, then obviously you (collectively) don't have an issue with it and that's on you (the viewer).
JMO

Kelley said...

Bill Gates and Oprah both do a tremendous ammount of charity work. I'm not sure about Julia Roberts.

Rosie said...

I am very happy that the Gosselins are donating to a childhood cancer charity. This is obviously a great cause, and those who want to make a donation to the Gosselins, I am sure will want to donate to this charity.

I hope they will post this information on their website soon!

Linda said...

comesclean,

See this is where I get confused. The show that I watch has Kate (actually more so than Jon) saying that without the show they wouldn't have these opportunities for the kids.

The show that I watch has had her say that they are fortunate and blessed for receiving these things and that they couldn't do it without the show.

Seriously, is there a collective mute button that is pushed when J&K speak so that only part of the viewing population hear this?

anya said...

comesclean said..."You want my honest opinion? I think in addition to stopping the show, what will satisfy the GWOPpers - is for Kate to admit to the entitlement, the freebies, the admission that they are not a typical family. If she did, I bet there will still have enough of the fan base to keep the show going. Maybe it would even quell the GWOPpers..."

Interesting points. I would disagree that it's Kate's role exclusively to address this issue. All the trips, etc. we have seen them on, Jon's been right there too. Are you addressing Kate specifically because it is clear that she is the one the GWoP'ers have a real issue with?

I think they have begun to address the perceived entitlement and the "freebies." Wasn't the end of last week's show a stab at that? And also a chance for them to show the gratitude some feel they haven't shown previously? And you have to admit, 95% of the GWoP'ers were not satisfied, so I am not sure what more *she* (he, they) can do....

I don't know that Kate is going to admit to not being a "normal family" (whatever that is). Didn't NMD report that at the talk the Gosselin's gave last week Kate stressed that she wanted to remain a normal family? I think her definition of "normal" probably includes staying close to their values, religion and staying grounded in the middle of the craziness. (I know some will snicker, but I am just trying to understand her P.O.V.)

anya said...

Kelley said...
Bill Gates and Oprah both do a tremendous ammount of charity work. I'm not sure about Julia Roberts.


See, Kelley you just proved my point! :-) We *know* about Bill and Oprah, but we *don't know* about Julia and....Kate Gosselin!

I think the public has a right to know! Have the Gosselins (Kate) started any schools in Africa? What have the Gosselins (aka the "nasty piece of work") done to address global health initiatives???

comesclean said...

The show that I watch has had her say that they are fortunate and blessed for receiving these things and that they couldn't do it without the show.

Seriously, is there a collective mute button that is pushed when J&K speak so that only part of the viewing population hear this?


IIRC Kate is very vague and refers to "it" as a "blessing" - it is implied I suppose, but vague. IMO, it still doesn't cancel out all the "rare treat" comments and the overall belief that it appears that they are doing these things because "they save".

I agree though - that Kate is taking most of the heat because I guess... she does most of the talking.

I know Kate would like to remain "a normal" family - but really - how many other families are like hers and "relatable"?

IMO.

Guinevere said...

I guess I don't understand the focus on normalcy, since I think what's normal for one family is not normal for another. I think most people are using the term "normal" as relative to their own experience. Certainly, it's not normal in the larger context of the word to be on TV or to have sextuplets. But as Anya points out, Kate very well may be defining the word differently, and referring to other markers of normalcy that she hopes to maintain.

I guess I also have never understood why people care so much if the Gosselins are normal, average, etc. - people focus so much on them being "relatable", but as I've already said, their circumstances make them pretty different from most of us right off the bat. If you don't find them relatable and it's important for you to be able to relate to the people you see on TV, then don't watch the show. Lack of normalcy or relatability doesn't begin to explain the obsessive hate the Gosselins are subjected to. Also, Kate saying that her family is normal or saying that she wants it to be normal does not mean that she is lying to the viewers. I think that's a pretty whacked-out interpretation of the statement.

comesclean said...

If you don't find them relatable and it's important for you to be able to relate to the people you see on TV, then don't watch the show. Lack of normalcy or relatability doesn't begin to explain the obsessive hate the Gosselins are subjected to. Also, Kate saying that her family is normal or saying that she wants it to be normal does not mean that she is lying to the viewers. I think that's a pretty whacked-out interpretation of the statement.

Are you speaking collectively or directly?

I can only speak for myself, but I watch the show for the kids. I don't want to get caught up in the whole "child advocacy" issue because I believe that the Gosselin children are their parent's responsibility. Jon and Kate will be the ones to deal with any issue in regards to their children that stems from the show.

From what I have seen, I have come to my own conclusion about Kate. I think she is quite capable of doing the things she is accused of. I believe it all stems from her "lack of worldly experiences".

It may not be "fair" that she and Jon are the recipients of "hate" but it all goes along with being on television. As easily as you (collectively) can accept a roll of paper towels among other things and "inspirational, amazing" Mother accolades - you must be willing to things not as nice.

I watch and take what Kate says with a grain of salt because I think she will say or do whatever needs to be said or done to collect a paycheck.

I am not going to get into a debate about whether or not I think she is "lying". Regardless of how Jon and Kate portray their finances, they still appear on a show with their children and collect a check for doing so and are the recipients of indulgences most "typical" families do not.

I am not jealous of their "material" things - I just don't have the highest opinion of them because of the decisions they have made. I think eventually, if they have misrepresented themselves and if they are truly who they claim to be, then they will eventually have to answer to a body more powerful than some pissed off people who have some "agenda" to bring them down.

No offense Guinevere, but your post - comes across as "if you don't like it - turn it off. As if a descending opinion is not appreciated" I may be wrong, and I apologize, but I didn't think that everyone who posts on this board had to be "pro-Gosselin".

Anonymous said...

"comesclean" I can understand your point of view but at the same time, ppl here, at GWOP, and those on other blogs are watching the show, should kate and the fam be under scrutiny for free? I understand there are many points of view about this show but the fact that they did put the show out there and its the highest rated show on TLC shows something...whether you like it or not..people are watching. just thought I'd say something, also, how do you compare a family of ten to a hurricane, completely absurd.

Linda said...

Comesclean,

I've not perceived the rare treat comment as her way of saying that they "save" for things for so long so they only get them occasionally.

I perceive the "rare treat" comment as her way of saying that they don't indulge the kids with lots of snacks or extras because of their values, the whole organic food thing, etc.

(BTW, the whole "rare treat" thing when said over and over again by her seems a little contradictory and gets on my nerves.)

I also have wondered about whether Ks own upbringing plays into the whole "rare treat" thing.
For instance, was she raised without a lot of extras and she feels kind of guilty that the kids get these extras (even occasionally) so she downplays them?

And I've got to agree with Guinevere about the matter of whether the Gs are "normal" or "average" enough to be relatable.

I knew that this family was not normal the minute that I watched the first episode. #1 - they have six kids who are all the same age and two others who are the same age; and #2 - they're on a tv show.

The extreme hate that some people have towards the mother is what is so interesting and simultaneously troubling to me.

Anonymous said...

I think no matter what the Gosselins do the haters will still complain.

They don't donate and people trash talk about them.

Some people say "Well maybe they do donate. We just don't see it so we can't know for sure."

That statement is returned with a "Well, they should film it and show that they do. That way people would stop complaining about it."

So then the Gosselins do just that. Donate and it is filmed.

The next response is "OMG! Can you believe they had nerve to donate while filming the show? Just throw it in our faces that you donate. OMG! Such damage control. They are so selfish. They couldn't donate off camera." Blah, blah, blah!

I say, WTF? It doesn't make sense! First, you want them to donate. And, you won't believe that they do until you actually SEE them doing so on TV. THEN, when they do that, you rant and rave and say they are just doing it for "damage control" or to toss it in everyone's faces or to be selfish. I just don't get it.

This type of behavior just goes to show that the Gosselins can't win no matter what they do. It also goes to show that those that hate them do so for no good reason(s) at all. Which leads me back to the REAL reason I suspect MOST people do hate them, jealousy! And haters, don't deny it. Because, when you make statements like "Well my family doesn't get to take 20 vacations a years and here they are just jetting off whenever they feel like it!", that's a jealousy comment. Or when you say things like "It must be nice!", that's a jealousy comment. I have YET to read/see any real and good reasons to dislike J&K. Let alone HATE them. Sure, Kate can be a pain in the a** sometimes. But that's no reason to hate her. I just don't get it.

To the haters: don't ask or demand that the Gosselins do or say certain things on air just to satisfy you. Then when they do, turn around and complain about it and call it "damage control." Because, when that happens the only ones that look like fools are YOU!

And, before you go demanding that others chip in and help and donate to families that are in need due to hurricanes, floods, fires, etc., why don't you take your own advice. I'd be willing to bet that 97% of the people who yelled about J&K not doing so haven't done so themselves either. Of course the haters will cry that they have. But, just like they do to J&K I will demand that they PROVE IT!!! And, if they can and do prove it, I will turn around and call it "damage control." Or say that they just did it to make themselves look good. Etc. Ya know, kinda like they do to J&K. And you know what? I bet you they won't like being treated like that. Well guess what? J&K probably don't like being treated like that either I'm sure!

a anon post said...

"I would disagree that it's Kate's role exclusively to address this issue. All the trips, etc. we have seen them on, Jon's been right there too. Are you addressing Kate specifically because it is clear that she is the one the GWoP'ers have a real issue with?"

Anya, I know you weren't addressing this to me, but I know I have been guilty of using Kate as the figurehead for all that the Gosselin's do wrong. But from my point of view, it's not because of GWoP's, it's because Kate is the one who is the decision maker in the family.

As for the family doing damage control with the garage sale, well I do think the Gosselins are doing it for TV vs. coming from their hearts. And the problem I have with it is that it isn't sincere.(Is it going to make a difference to the charity receving the money? No. They are still going to be appreciative for it.) But I think it shows how the show went from a realistic portrayal of their lives to 1 big scripted event after another, which I personally believe is going to be the death of the show.

"To the haters: don't ask or demand that the Gosselins do or say certain things on air just to satisfy you. Then when they do, turn around and complain about it and call it "damage control."

To the defenders who say that blogs like GWoP have no impact on the show - can you make up your mind? Because according to your post GWoP can take credit for the reason Jon and Kate are trying to do "damage control" now.

merryway said...

The GWOPers wrote to the Grains Foundation wanting to get Kate removed as spokesperson.
While they constantly harp that she needs to get a job and quit using her children, they try to stop it when she is doing work without her children.
They sink their teeth in and just rip her to pieces.

sevenstrangers said...

Seriously, is there a collective mute button that is pushed when J&K speak so that only part of the viewing population hear this?

I think the same can be said for the people who defend their actions as well.

The extreme hate that some people have towards the mother is what is so interesting and simultaneously troubling to me.

My eighty year old Grandmother who once caught the show while she was watching my kids is offended by Kate. She raised ten kids on her own (my Grandfather wasn't a great provider) and never resorted to what she perceives to be "handouts". She was raised in a different time and a different place but to her, it is very "shameful" that people (not just Kate) cannot live within their means.

IMO I never "asked" Kate to be something she is not, so to say "I want her to be more "giving" when she is obviously not, is not a fair assessment. I don't need to see the Duggars give back to know that they do. What you see is pretty much what you get - with both families. No amount of editing is going to make one family saintly or one evil. They are what they are.

twinmom said...

If the show is about their lives and their lives include selling items no longer needed to give the proceeds to charity, then that is a part of their family life and it should be no surprise that it is shown on J & K Plus8.
The anger over at Gwop is a symptom of something else. It is scary how so many women are drawn to a place where they know the worst things they can say about these folks will be posted and it will satisfy some horrible need to spew nasty, spiteful, snarky stuff about ANYTHING. Must be a real fun crowd at a party.

Daisy said...

a anon, I disagree with you about the Gosselins giving from their heart. There is a Bible verse that says "So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver." Knowing how Kate has Bible verses all over her house I'm sure this is a verse that she would take to heart. It's taught early on in Christian families.

I heard the Trinity podcast and Kate talked about mailing a check to another family in need and God's provision. They were already giving, we just didn't know about it.

I'm saddened by the new outburst about the garage sale. People were outraged that the G's giving wasn't on the show and now the same people are outraged that it is. Hypocritical IMO.

Linda said...

twinmom wrote:

"The anger over at Gwop is a symptom of something else. It is scary how so many women are drawn to a place where they know the worst things they can say about these folks will be posted "
============================

I think that you are on to something. The intensity on both the sides of the haters and the defenders is really a sad commentary on women who I believe are the majority of posters regarding this mess.

As a culture I think that we've lost the ability to have civil discourse about so many things and this is just another example.

=============================
Sevenstories -

With all due respect to your 80 year old grandmother, the times are different.

I was raised with 7 siblings and my mother is 81 years old. My mom says all the time that they would not be able to raise all 8 of us on the income (adjusted today) that my dad made. Times are different.

That does not mean that I give the Gs a free pass on all of their parenting.

I just see the no-win situation that so many mothers are in.

If you work outside the home, you are criticized for having someone else (daycare) raise your child. If you stay home with your children, you are criticized for not providing your children with outlets (daycare) for developing social skills.

My problem with the people who are so anti-G is that they've gotten so "off-message" with their snark du jour. I've got little problem with Paul Peterson's approach to this. He is raising awareness without calling the kids brats, future serial killers, budding drug dealers, etc.

Anonymous said...

Bill Gates does give back.. ever hear of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. do a google search and you will see how much this foundation gives to charities.

a anon post said...

If the show is about their lives and their lives include selling items no longer needed to give the proceeds to charity, then that is a part of their family life and it should be no surprise that it is shown on J & K Plus8.

Twim mom and daisy -

I respectly disagree with you. I don't think holding a garage sale for charity is a part of their lives, I think it's a publicity stunt for the show. I don't believe that Jon and Kate would have done it one their own if the show wasn't filming it.

If giving back to the community was a regular part of their life, what could be easier than donating the clothes to Goodwill or the Salvation Army? However, up to now, Kate has chosen to take the clothes she gets for free and sell them at a consignment store for her profit. Why the sudden change of direction from going to a consignment store to selling at a garage sale for charity?

Heck, she could have even gave a couple outfits to Jodi as a thank you for watching the kids, but according to her sister Julie, this never happened.

Look, Jon and Kate certainly don't owe anybody an explanation for the things that they do, but when you see people act 1 way and now all of sudden they've switched directions, it's only natural to think something is up.

According to Julie, the shows now are based on ideas that Jenn (their producer) thinks people want to see, not necessarily what Jon and Kate want to do which is why there are some episodes on the show that I don't consder the Gosselin's real life. I'm not saying that Jon and Kate are acting in the shows, because they clearly can't act so it is real in that aspect, but that what you see on TV isn't what Jon and Kate chose to do.

merryway said...

I also think that the collective hate is fascinating, it keeps me reading the GWOP blog and the more I read I the more scarier they become. I read it now for the same reason I like to study crime, because the psychology of it has always interested me. I used to post over there because I thought it was just a gossip site but was always offended by the remarks about the children. It seems to me a some sort of mother against mother / witch hunt mentality.
I also understand an older generation being offended. My mother was the oldest girl of 12 and they lived in a coal mining town. At Christmas the church brought oranges and some candy. My mother was thrilled that little ones got something for Christmas, but her parents were offended. Society and or reality shows (I blame Jerry Springer) seems to have done away with pride and shame. It seems weird that some are so upset about their wealth or freebies.

a anon post said...

One more point, someone mentioned that it is listed on the Jon and Kate website that one of the charities they support is pediatric cancer. When Jon spoke at the Boston Moms of Multiples group, their fundraiser was for pediatric cancer. It would have been easy, and fitting with the Gosselin's mission statement, for Jon to donate the money he got from signing pictures to the fundraiser. He did not, which don't get me wrong, is completely his choice.

This is something he could have done that would have been mentioned by people who attended the conference, but not necessarily publicized on their TV show. I would buy Jon and Kate having a garage sale to raise money for charity if there was a history of behavior behind it.

Daisy, if Kate's intention to give money was to do it anyoumously, why did she mention it on her podcast?

erin said...

Merryway said: "I also think that the collective hate is fascinating, it keeps me reading the GWOP blog and the more I read I the more scarier they become. I read it now for the same reason I like to study crime, because the psychology of it has always interested me. I used to post over there because I thought it was just a gossip site but was always offended by the remarks about the children. It seems to me a some sort of mother against mother / witch hunt mentality."

This has always been my issue with GWoP, the holier-than-thou take on parenting. I, too, am saddened and almost scared by the way the hate centers on Kate. Mom-bashing in our society is out of control, and it is usually the other moms that feel it is acceptable to pass judgment. I don't quite understand it, but I don't believe that it is because "Kate is the decision maker." Kate gets hate for, among other things, conceiving her children (which last time I checked took 2 people). I have seen at various times people say that she tricked Jon into it. If you have issues with them as parents (which you legitimately could), or them as people (again, legitimate maybe) that's one thing; if you have irrational hate for Kate that borders on scary that's a serious issue. I could say so much more but I'll stop there.

I will say, I do have issues with some of their parenting decisions but I ultimately like the family as a whole. I'm not blind to the problems, I just thought I'd add my voice to the chorus on the whole irrational Kate-hate.

sevenstrangers said...

With all due respect to your 80 year old grandmother, the times are different.


I realize this, that's why I mentioned it in my post that I know it's a different time and place.

But there are things that transcend time and place and "adjusted income". I think that's more of where my Grandmother (and I) are coming from.

My Grandmother did raise 10 children - the oldest is my Father. She raised enough money to send him to college (the equivalent of a two year degree), he joined the military and sent most of his pay home so his next brother could go to college. Each brother and sister did the same for the next. When my Father became a citizen, he petitioned my Grandmother and she earned a living legitimately by taking care of children and other more elderly folks. My Grandmother never was on SSI or welfare, one by one her children came to the US, of her ten children she has 3 engineers, 2 chemists, 3 nurses and 2 accountants. My Father was also able to finish his studies with the help of my Mother as well.

My Grandmother has 12 Grandchildren and even though none of us had to go through what are parents did - we each carry our familiy's values and do not live beyond our means. I may not have 8 kids but I know if I was ever in an overwhelming situation, I would do all that I could - have 2 jobs, live with less, etc. before I would go that route. Even if I did all that I could, I know that I could rely on my Family if I needed to - not strangers.

erin said...

A anon said: "Daisy, if Kate's intention to give money was to do it anyoumously, why did she mention it on her podcast?"

I'm not Daisy, but I'll bite; that story is one they have told before. It wasn't told to highlight their giving, it is about how "God provided for them." She sent a check and then got the mail and there was a gift card for the same amount. I don't think it was meant to be an issue of them giving, anonymously or otherwise.

Linda said...

Erin,

I think that you are right. Mom-bashing is out of control in our culture. Right now, it just happens to be Kate Gosselin who is the current target.

A anon post,

I'm not sure what to say to some of the things that you write because they seem to be based on assuming as fact things that we just don't know are fact. For instance, we don't know what J&K have given or not given to Jodi & Kevin. Nor do we know what J&K have or have not given to charities. Maybe you have some inside information that I don't have, but I think I think that it is very difficult to make assumptions based on an edited film clips.

AgainAnonymous said...

Well, this thread switched a bit from the hurricane/Gosselin comparison to the garage sale "issue" since I last checked, so I guess I'll chime in on that latter issue.

Frankly, I think the Gosselins are damned if they do/damned if they don't (apparently that may be a literal statement for some posters :)). The hypocracy of the naysayers is just incredible. From "TLC can't show us a better side of Kate because there isn't one" to "Well, anything good you see is 'made for tv,' paid for the TLC and 'damage control."

It's like there's a "How To Hate The Gosselins" handbook being circulated, only noone told them they're supposed to take turns quoting the handbook.

That's why I've really stopped "debating" about the G's. By now viewers have basically formed their opinions about this family, and I can't see anything changing those opinions.

I think Kate Gosselin could publicly admit to every fault she's ever been accused of and it wouldn't NEVER be enough for those who CHOOSE to find fault under ANY circumstances.

I agree with those abovethread who have stated that this epidemic of criticism among women and mothers has run completely off the map of reason. There is NO spirit of charity and support among these posters and bloggers (many of whom claim to be active in social work and charities...scary). There is only criticism, bile and a menacing glee in tearing another woman/mother apart.

I think it's a sad commentary on our society that this is how so many choose to spend their time and that they see absolutely nothing wrong with it. Somehow I doubt they reserve this bile only for the tv personalities who "ask" for their ranting critiques...I'm sure their neighbors and family members are fair game as well...if not to their faces.

MommyZinger said...

"The anger over at Gwop is a symptom of something else. It is scary how so many women are drawn to a place where they know the worst things they can say about these folks will be posted and it will satisfy some horrible need to spew nasty, spiteful, snarky stuff about ANYTHING. Must be a real fun crowd at a party."

I totally agree with you, twinmom. I find the whole thing scary yet fascinating. It does seem to me like mass insanity.

I feel like it is a bunch of people who for some reason are just not happy in their lives or are experiencing stress and need to get it out somehow. How better than through an anonymous forum where there are no repurcussions. It is so sad that disrespecting another human being they don't even know makes them feel better.

I went over to that Topix place hoping to hear from people who know the Gosselins but was disappointed to see some of the more militant GWoPpers were already there. (and a couple of equally crazy defenders) So now THAT place is just as bad. They (the anti's) are like a virus - trying to spread the insanity.

Guinevere said...

No offense Guinevere, but your post - comes across as "if you don't like it - turn it off. As if a descending opinion is not appreciated" I may be wrong, and I apologize, but I didn't think that everyone who posts on this board had to be "pro-Gosselin".

I only meant that in the context of people complaining that the Gosselins aren't relatable. Again, if that's important to you (not you, comesclean, but a hypothetical general "you"), then the show is not going to give you what you need or want, and I don't understand why you would watch it.

I know it was against the rules at TWoP to say, "If you dont' like it, don't watch" about any show, but I have never understood the people who watch shows they don't enjoy and then go online to complain vociferously about said shows. IIRC, there was a "bitterness" thread for "Lost" after the very first episode aired. That was just crazy to me. Those people didn't (or shouldn't) have anything invested in the show at that point, so I could not understand watching it only to go online and talk about how stupid it was, badly acted, plotted, etc.

So, I'm absolutely not trying to quash dissenting opinions. But if someone talks about watching the show even though they don't like it and feel it doesn't fulfill their wishes or expectations, I feel like i have the right to say that that does not make sense, to me. Maybe someone can explain it to me in a way that I'll be able to understand it better.

sevenstrangers said...

But if someone talks about watching the show even though they don't like it and feel it doesn't fulfill their wishes or expectations, I feel like i have the right to say that that does not make sense, to me. Maybe someone can explain it to me in a way that I'll be able to understand it better.

IMO, I think people just adore the kids and put up with Kate.

I think people tend to give her the benefit of the doubt because of the kids - kind of "no one with such adorable kids could be "that" evil."

Also, I think anyone blessed with that many chidren would consider them a blessing? I would be very thankful that they all survived and are thriving.

Guinevere said...

As for the family doing damage control with the garage sale, well I do think the Gosselins are doing it for TV vs. coming from their hearts. And the problem I have with it is that it isn't sincere.(Is it going to make a difference to the charity receving the money? No. They are still going to be appreciative for it.) But I think it shows how the show went from a realistic portrayal of their lives to 1 big scripted event after another, which I personally believe is going to be the death of the show.

With all due respect, I don't see how you can presume to know what is in the Gosselins' hearts. Do you realize that you are setting them up for a situation in which they literally cannot win? If they donate to charity and don't let you know, you assume that they don't donate and complain about them not giving back. If they film it, so the public knows that they are donating to charity, they are accused of insincerity, of damage control, of the show being scripted.

I think there is some - not scripting, but perhaps manipulation that goes into every reality show. Without it, these shows would be hella boring to watch. But I don't think J&K+8 even begins to approach the level of scripting one finds in a show like "The Hills" or all of those dumb Paris Hilton shows where she'd be on a farm or whatever. I have never watched "The Hills", but my understanding is that it's obviously scripted. I think I watched the first season of the Paris Hilton/Nicole Richie show, and it was painfully obvious that most of the situations were set-ups.

Guinevere said...

My eighty year old Grandmother who once caught the show while she was watching my kids is offended by Kate. She raised ten kids on her own (my Grandfather wasn't a great provider) and never resorted to what she perceives to be "handouts". She was raised in a different time and a different place but to her, it is very "shameful" that people (not just Kate) cannot live within their means.

I really think this is more of a POV issue than a generational issue. If I were your grandmother, I would have been grateful that I had the resources to raise 10 children with very little help. She must have had something in order to raise that many kids on her own (though many things were cheaper then, of course). If she did it by scrimping a lot, then there are people who would probably judge her for having that many children and not being able to provide for them very well. If she did provide for them well, I wonder how she managed to do that all on her own.

I don't have a particular issue with handouts. I try to think in terms of, "There but for the grace of God go I."

Guinevere said...

However, up to now, Kate has chosen to take the clothes she gets for free and sell them at a consignment store for her profit.

Is there evidence of this? I don't have a problem with her doing what she wants with her own possessions, but I see this mentioned every once in a while, but I don't recall that it was ever more than a rumor. Can you provide any verification?

Guinevere said...

Look, Jon and Kate certainly don't owe anybody an explanation for the things that they do, but when you see people act 1 way and now all of sudden they've switched directions, it's only natural to think something is up.

Except there have been many comments (and even one blog entry) at GWoP specifically addressing changes that GWoPpers would like the Gosselins to make. I am on record as thinking it's hugely nervy to insist that total strangers change their behavior to suit your wishes, BUT...it's even nervier to bitch about it when they do.

Seriously, can any of the anti-Gosselin folks here address this? You want to see J&K give back, but when they do, you aren't happy? They aren't doing it the right way, you know they aren't sincere, etc.? Do you realize how unfair you're being?

(To get back to the original subject of this thread, it is totally Kate's fault that I am posting a zillion times in a row instead of working on a very important work project!)

Guinevere said...

According to Julie, the shows now are based on ideas that Jenn (their producer) thinks people want to see, not necessarily what Jon and Kate want to do which is why there are some episodes on the show that I don't consder the Gosselin's real life.

According to Julie, Jodi is now out of the Gosselins' lives, so Bitter Julie's gossip gravy train has screeched to a stop. Meaning what she says is even less reliable than usual.

sevenstrangers said...

She must have had something in order to raise that many kids on her own (though many things were cheaper then, of course).

Yes - determination. She told me once that her MIL chided her for having too many kids and she had sisters who "asked" her for some of her children (don't ask - like I said, different time, different place), but she said her kids were not puppies to give out. She was business-savvy in her own way, raising animals for sale and what not. My point is self-sufficiency.

Anonymous said...

According to Julie, the shows now are based on ideas that Jenn (their producer) thinks people want to see, not necessarily what Jon and Kate want to do which is why there are some episodes on the show that I don't consder the Gosselin's real life.

Where is this posted?

In light of today's discussion, this is an interesting article:

http://www.salon.com/env/mind_reader/2008/09/22/voter_choice/?source=yahoo

Guinevere said...

I think people tend to give her the benefit of the doubt because of the kids - kind of "no one with such adorable kids could be "that" evil."

What makes you think that?

Don't get me wrong, I think the kids are adorable. But most kids are. It's enough of a reason to watch a show one otherwise hates. JMO.

Also, I think anyone blessed with that many chidren would consider them a blessing? I would be very thankful that they all survived and are thriving.

I've heard the Gosselins say many times how thankful and lucky they are that the sextuplets all survived and were healthy.

Guinevere said...

Yes - determination. She told me once that her MIL chided her for having too many kids and she had sisters who "asked" her for some of her children (don't ask - like I said, different time, different place), but she said her kids were not puppies to give out. She was business-savvy in her own way, raising animals for sale and what not. My point is self-sufficiency.

Well, if I were her I'd be grateful to have been graced with determination. I would still think that perhaps someone raising that many kids on her own had a little luck or help or something. I guess I can't relate to the, "Let me tell you how much better of a person I am than Kate Gosselin" type of post. But I value modesty very highly - probably more highly than self-sufficiency.

Guinevere said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mom said...

Guin,
The link above is great. Thanks for sharing - VERY interesting.

a anon post said...

However, up to now, Kate has chosen to take the clothes she gets for free and sell them at a consignment store for her profit.

Is there evidence of this? I don't have a problem with her doing what she wants with her own possessions, but I see this mentioned every once in a while, but I don't recall that it was ever more than a rumor. Can you provide any verification?

----------

In an a Jon and Kate episode, going to the consignment was listed on Kate's to do list. Is that enough proof?

anya said...

a anon post said...
Anya, I know you weren't addressing this to me, but I know I have been guilty of using Kate as the figurehead for all that the Gosselin's do wrong. But from my point of view, it's not because of GWoP's, it's because Kate is the one who is the decision maker in the family.

AAP, are you basing this on the fact that Kate appears to have the more "take charge" personality? I guess I don't feel qualified to make this determination since I don't know the Gosselins other than what I see on T.V. (I discount just about all the internet rumors because generally the people spilling secrets either have an agenda or we cannot verify their authenticity). Even if I buy the presumption that Kate makes all the decisions for the family, Jon's lack of engagement does not relieve him of the ultimate effects of the decisions that are made for their family.

To the defenders who say that blogs like GWoP have no impact on the show - can you make up your mind? Because according to your post GWoP can take credit for the reason Jon and Kate are trying to do "damage control" now.
I wouldn't say "no impact", but I will say they vastly inflate their importance. I am sure Figure 8/TLC are looking at a variety of sources to gauge viewer interest and feedback. And something else detractors appear to not comprehend - the viewing audience is not comprised of 95% GWoP'ers/detractors and 5% lovers of everything J&K do. They overstate how many think like them and simplify the opinions of those who express a different view.

a anon post said...

guinevere -

Seriously, can any of the anti-Gosselin folks here address this?
You want to see J&K give back, but when they do, you aren't happy?

I address this above - it would be nice if there was a pattern showing them giving back, both on the show and off. Then, to me, the garage sale would move from a PR stunt to living their mission statement.

a anon post said...

Anya -

I'm really going on Kate stating in a think the beginning of season 3 when she states that the show is a pretty accurate portrayal of their life, and Jon's comment that (and I am paraphrasing here) that he didn't have much ambition. So yes, I am equating take charge personality with decision maker. However, I also agree that Jon should also be held responsible.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that this is the reason I tend to refer to Kate only in my posts.

erin said...

A Anon said: "I address this above - it would be nice if there was a pattern showing them giving back, both on the show and off. Then, to me, the garage sale would move from a PR stunt to living their mission statement."

Early in the show's run Kate mentioned hearing of another family that was having a hard go of it. She said she wrote a check, and then went back and forth about spending it since they, themselves, were having a hard time. She ultimately sent the check and was "rewarded by God" by getting an anonymous gift card for the exact amount she had written the check for the other family. This is one instance, we honestly don't know how much there was in between that we never heard about.

Guinevere said...

In an a Jon and Kate episode, going to the consignment was listed on Kate's to do list. Is that enough proof?

That seems to me to be proof that Kate went to a consignment store once (or planned to go). How is it proof that she sells the kid's clothes at consignment shops regularly? That seems to be quite a leap. (I will reiterate that I think she has the right to do what she wants with her possessions.)

a anon post said...

Anon -

I believe that Julie posted it on GWoP. In addition, their was an interview with Jon (to be honest, I don't remember where - MSNBC, I think?) where Jon states that neither he or Kate want to do the best/worst episode. So there's proof right from Jon's mouth that the producers are helping to chose at least 1 topic of the show.

And I'm going to state again, do you really think Kate would chose to get a dog? She can't stand when the boys are dirty, and won't let the kids color with markers.

a anon post said...

Erin -

I am not familiar with Kate's story about donating money, which is why I asked. I'm still not sure I understand the whole story.

Daisy said...

A anon said: "Daisy, if Kate's intention to give money was to do it anyoumously, why did she mention it on her podcast?"

I'm not Daisy, but I'll bite; that story is one they have told before. It wasn't told to highlight their giving, it is about how "God provided for them." She sent a check and then got the mail and there was a gift card for the same amount. I don't think it was meant to be an issue of them giving, anonymously or otherwise.

Thank you Erin. That's what I was going to say, only you said it better than I would have.

sevenstrangers said...

I guess I can't relate to the, "Let me tell you how much better of a person I am than Kate Gosselin" type of post. But I value modesty very highly - probably more highly than self-sufficiency.

Never once did I say that. I was relating a story. If anything, my anecdote was that "it can be done". If you really value modesty I don't know how you can defend someone like Kate other than for the reason you don't think it's fair that she is the recipient of so much hate. Kate Gosselin is one person who has no modesty. IMO

erin said...

A anon--I was basically trying to give a concrete example of giving. My problem with the whole "they don't give" thing has always been we don't know when they write checks and when they don't. I think that a LOT of Christian families view tithing as their entire charitable obligation aside from minimal time giving (my brother is one of these, he has never volunteered time at his church which is much like Jon and Kate's church from what I understand). My own family (we are Catholic) has always had the emphasis on giving of time, not so much on tithing. And with the giving, we don't know that they didn't consign then donate part of the money. There are too many unknown variables in that equation for me to say unequivocally that they don't have a pattern of giving or that their rummage sale wasn't "from their hearts."

Anonymous said...

That seems to me to be proof that Kate went to a consignment store once (or planned to go). How is it proof that she sells the kid's clothes at consignment shops regularly?

For me that is also proof that at the last speaking engagement Jon and Kate did not allude to financial difficulties - that one time.

For someone who has trouble "going from A to B without proof", Guievere, you seem to give Kate a lot of credit for someone who doesn't even know her. Somethings don't need "proof" - like the truth. If some people don't like Kate, maybe there's a valid reason.

Guinevere said...

Never once did I say that. I was relating a story. If anything, my anecdote was that "it can be done". If you really value modesty I don't know how you can defend someone like Kate other than for the reason you don't think it's fair that she is the recipient of so much hate. Kate Gosselin is one person who has no modesty. IMO

IMO, a lot of the subtext of anti-Gosselin folks' stories are "I'm a better mother/wife/person" than Kate. I find the bragging a bit of a turnoff and a little tacky. Whether "it can be done" - I'm not sure how well a single mother in America today could raise 10 kids without a very, very good paying job. If the example is running oneself ragged, working three jobs, etc., I would argue that one might be doing a disservice to their kids by never being around. In an equation like that, something has got to give. That's one reason I believe that J&K believe they are making the best decision for their family, even if it's a decision that has some drawbacks.

A lot of the reason I defend Kate is because of all the hate she gets. Though I wouldn't call her so much immodest as unstoic. She doesn't brag; she complains. It's a little different to me (and yes, kind of irritating, but since I don't know Kate, it's also kind of funny).

For someone who has trouble "going from A to B without proof", Guievere, you seem to give Kate a lot of credit for someone who doesn't even know her. Somethings don't need "proof" - like the truth. If some people don't like Kate, maybe there's a valid reason.

I think it depends on whether one is inclined to believe the worst of people with the least amount of evidence, or give people the benefit of the doubt with the least amount of evidence. I'm no Will Rogers, but I'll take the latter, thanks very much.

I don't understand how you can have "truth" without proof. From a scientific standpoint (not a phrase you'll see me typing often!), a hypothesis is proven with evidence. There is no such thing as truth without proof or evidence, IMO.

I don't doubt that there exist in this world people with valid reasons for disliking Kate Gosselin. Strangers on the internet who appear to hate her very much? Do not have a valid reason, I don't think. They have reasons - misogyny and jealousy would top the list - but they aren't particularly valid.

anya said...

AAP said..."And I'm going to state again, do you really think Kate would chose to get a dog? She can't stand when the boys are dirty, and won't let the kids color with markers."

Well, I'll admit, it's not the FIRST thing I thought we would see her agree to! :-)

So, I gather it feels phoney to you. Fair enough. We don't really know all the components that went into the decision, however. (By the way, have we established that they have gotten the dog?) Perhaps pressure from Jon and the kids, maybe Jen/Figure 8 weighed in too. It could be (hope I won't be accused of being a Pollyanna)that Kate is trying to work on some of her obsessive behaviors and sees this as a positive step. I don't think any of us know the whole story.

What I am sensing from you is the lack of authenticity bothers you. I think that is a valid criticism. For me, it just doesn't bother me that much. I expect my reality t.v. to have some of that. When it becomes over-the-top or completely scripted, i.e., "The Hills", then I do lose interest.

a anon post said...

"I've read comments around the internet about Kate and often found myself taken aback by the incredulous outrage."

Personally, I can think that the same can be said for all of Kate and Jon's fervent supporters who come to their defense without even knowing them.

Why are we all (myself included)so involved in these discussions that we feel the need to defend our beliefs on blogs? I wish I had a good answer for this one.

erin said...

Daisy: I hijacked your answer! I'm so sorry. I'm off work and bored.

Sevenstrangers: I have been accused of immodesty, and I'll admit sometimes I think our society is *too* modest, but I have never flashed anyone and there are no incriminating photos of me floating around so I think I'm still in the clear. Joking.

Anon. 2:39 said "For someone who has trouble "going from A to B without proof", Guievere, you seem to give Kate a lot of credit for someone who doesn't even know her. Somethings don't need "proof" - like the truth. If some people don't like Kate, maybe there's a valid reason."

I disagree with this. The truth is a pretty fluid thing, my true account of something that happened is not the same as the next persons. And in my line of work, as much as you want to hear the truth, it comes down to what you can prove and what you can make people believe. If I'm sitting at a defendant's table, believe-you-me, I want them to have proof before they convict me on the "truth."

Daisy said...

Erin, I'm glad you answered. I was at work and you said exactly what I was thinking!

a anon post said...

Linda - Julie has mentioned I believe on GWoP, that Kate has never given Jodi any of the free clothes.

There's been a lot of talk on this blog about how nothing Jon and Kate ever do will be good enough proof for the masses at GWoP - that Kate could do nothing right in their eyes.

However, I feel the same goes on here. Guinevere, you asked me to provide proof that the producers are now starting to direct the topics of the show. I bring up the fact that Jodi's sister mentioned this in a blog. For you, not good enough because Julie is bitter (and how do you know this for a fact? Where's your evidence?), and therefore couldn't possibly be true. Then I follow with an interview Jon did which states that at least one show was the idea of the producers.

And then you wanted proof that Kate would bring her free clothes to a consignment store. I tell you it was written on one of her to do lists shown on the show and you counter that well, I can't believe that you would imply that she would write something down and then not do it. REALLY?

Now, I'll say again that they are definitely Kate's clothes and she can do what ever she wants with them. However, I don't believe someone who gets her clothes for free and then turns around and sells them at a consignment store are the actions of a charitable person. This is something that is a super easy way of giving back, and if they didn't have money to give, well, this would cost them nothing.

If they have been charitable all along, why are we just seeing it now? Why wasn't it highlighted in a previous episode? You can use the excuse of them wanting to do it privately, but if that is the case, why the big show with the garage sale and the donation to the Ronald McDonald Charity? I've given you my evidence, based on the behaviors of Jon and Kate on why I do not believe they are charitable people. Where is your evidence that they are?

On a previous thread, someone wanted proof that Jon and Kate aren't still implying that they have financial needs. I brought up the fact that Kate said she couldn't afford to take the kids out on more than 1-on-1 day a year when that clearly isn't the case. (If for no reason other than they can get it for free, so it wouldn't cost them anything anyway!) However, I was told I must have misunderstood what Kate said or that Kate must have said that to be relatable.

And then there was the Christmas episode where Kate (or Jon, I'm not positive) stated how hard it was to provide a nice Christmas for 8 kids, while never acknowledging the many donations they must have received from fans because they (the fans) believed that it was hard for Jon and Kate to provide a nice Christmas.

These examples are straight from Jon and Kate, not 2nd hand, or from anyone bitter about Jon and Kate. And yet, desptie being provided with evidence, you are chosing to stick with your belief that it can't possibly be true.

It's all of the things, plus the things that Julie, Penn Mommy, and others say that correspond with these actions that lead me to believe what I believe.

a anon post said...

Anya -

I don't believe that Kate would mention they are getting a dog if they weren't serious about doing it. But no, I do not have any proof that they bought a dog.

anya said...

Hi AAP.

I wasn't trying to be argumentative, I swear! :-)

I was on another blog today where they were claiming a neighbor had seen the dog chained up in the back yard. I didn't know if that tidbit had been brought over here. So, I guess, I was just asking if we all pretty much agreed they did, in fact, have the dog.

In any case, I tend to agree with you. I think we may be seeing a pup in the near future!

Anonymous said...

In response to Kate selling her clothes......

Once someone gives you something is it not yours?

It would be a cold day in hell if after I gave someone a gift, clothes, etc. that I would expect to say what happens to them afterwards. That's just stupid! If someone gave her something then she should be free to do with it what she wants.

What? Should she keep the names and numbers of everyone who's ever given her something so that when she outgrows or gets tired of the things they gave her she can call and ask them what she should now do with them? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!

They were GIVEN to her. Most likely with no strings or stipulations attached. At that point they are hers to do with them what she wishes.

I'm sure at some point in time someone has given all of us something that we used then got rid of (one way or another...whether by trash, selling, donating, etc.). And I bet you we didn't have to first answer to the person who gave them to us either. Neither should Kate.

Just because YOU disagree with the way she got rid of an item(s) doesn't make it wrong. Maybe you wouldn't do it that way but who cares. Doesn't mean her way is wrong just because it's different than your way. She's not you and vica versa.

Fanny said...

A anon said...

"Personally, I can think that the same can be said for all of Kate and Jon's fervent supporters who come to their defense without even knowing them."


I think the difference is simply POV. I'm not blind, nor am I stupid, and I won't defend them just for the sake of defending them. I guess I just don't see things the way the "haters" do. I don't see Jon or Kate as "evil" people who are mean to their kids and eachother. I just don't. I don't believe that EVERYTHING good that they do is scripted and just for show.

Someone commented somewhere on another thread that Guin and I were "Kate's biggest supporters" or some such nonsense. If I think Kate was being a bitch (to Jon, most of the time), or that they handled things poorly (gumgate), I don't mind to tell ya so. I just fail to see how being bitchy and having bad judgement sometimes is enough reason for me to hate her the way some others do. Not to mention the fact (I know this pisses the haters off, but it's true) that what we see is a very heavily edited 20 minutes of their lives. I am absolutely positive that if I were filmed for one week just going about my daily life, there would be at least 20 minutes(if not more) of me being a total ass. I'm sure of it.

Perhaps that's the difference. Maybe those who hate her are much better people than I am and I just can't see it. That's how it feels when being called a "sheeple", anyway.

erin said...

A anon said: "And then there was the Christmas episode where Kate (or Jon, I'm not positive) stated how hard it was to provide a nice Christmas for 8 kids, while never acknowledging the many donations they must have received from fans because they (the fans) believed that it was hard for Jon and Kate to provide a nice Christmas."

During the twin's seventh birthday Kate made a comment about how did the twins feel knowing people who had never met them loved them enough to send them presents. The twin's last birthday was prior to last year's Christmas episode.

a Anon post said...

Anon -

I'm just wondering if you read this part of my post....?????

Now, I'll say again that they are definitely Kate's clothes and she can do what ever she wants with them.

So it looks like we both agree that Kate could do what ever she wants with the free clothes she gets. What's your problem?

A anon post said...

Erin -

I think that's just more confusing - whay would she say that about their birthday, but not acknowledge the gifts they get for Christmas?

a anon post said...

Franny -

I just want to point out that I have never called you or Guinevere sheeple or Jon and Kate's biggest supporters. In the same context, I don't think that I would refer to myself as a hater, either. I just don't agree with a lot of choices Jon and Kate have made.

"Not to mention the fact (I know this pisses the haters off, but it's true) that what we see is a very heavily edited 20 minutes of their lives." I agree with you - however, Kate herself has said on previous episodes that what you see on TV is their real life, so one could think it is a fair representation of their life. I would love to know if she still considers it to be a true statement.

"I am absolutely positive that if I were filmed for one week just going about my daily life, there would be at least 20 minutes(if not more) of me being a total ass. I'm sure of it. " I'm with you here. I don't know if there is enough money in this world to show how big of an ass I can be.

erin said...

A anon: I don't know why it would make it more confusing, it is an instance of the gifts from fans being acknowledged prior to Christmas where you said they had not acknowledged the gifts. As to WHY they acknowledged the gifts on the birthday v. Christmas, I really don't know. Didn't make it to air? Didn't happen? I don't know, I really don't remember the Christmas episode very well (except that the kids got bible action figures which I found to be funnier than it probably should have been). I don't really know why it happened on the birthday--what I do know is that they have acknowledged the gifts in the past and it did make it to air.

This is not directed at you personally more the other blogs (honestly it is a general criticism because you have been incredibly civil and have fostered honest discussion which I like), but a lot of people on the forums will pick and choose facts that are most beneficial to their argument and ignore those that don't help them. When actual concrete examples are given they are often dismissed, or worse still ignored.

A anon post said...

Erin -

Overall, I thought the gifts for Christmas were pretty sparse which is why I remember thinking I'm surprised that they didn't get more/better gifts, especially from fans of the show. (And to be honest I don't remember exactly what they received but I do remember the bible action figures as well.)

But I do recall Kate mentioning the gifts for the twins birthday. I should have made it clear that it was the why that was confusing.

sevenstrangers said...

Not to mention the fact (I know this pisses the haters off, but it's true) that what we see is a very heavily edited 20 minutes of their lives. I am absolutely positive that if I were filmed for one week just going about my daily life, there would be at least 20 minutes(if not more) of me being a total ass. I'm sure of it.

NMD and I had a discussion about the amount of time the cameras spent in the house.

It takes hours of footage to get the end result. If the producers really attempted "just to get" the bad stuff, then I think the cameras would have to be there 24/7.

I think what you see is what you get. There is no way editing will make anyone look saintly or anyone look evil. They can only use what footage is given to them.

JMO.

Bella Donna said...

Greetings all. I used to post at GWOP, but lately, I am feeling the need for a more fair and balanced discussion.

I really do not understand why people are so bent out of shape over the story about the Gosselin yard sale. So it was filmed. Big deal. The proceeds were being donated to a worthwhile cause, which to me, is the most important thing. I'm hardly a Kate or Jon supporter, but this? Is not even worth getting upset over, IMO.

The ONLY thing I could see people being upset about is the kids having to take pictures with people for a fee, but that's if it's true that it was really hot outside.

There are plenty of things about Jon & Kate (Kate especially) that irk me, but I have to agree that they are in a no-win situation with some people.

Guinevere said...

Guinevere, you asked me to provide proof that the producers are now starting to direct the topics of the show. I bring up the fact that Jodi's sister mentioned this in a blog. For you, not good enough because Julie is bitter (and how do you know this for a fact? Where's your evidence?), and therefore couldn't possibly be true.

No, I never said it couldn't possibly be true, and I don't necessarily think that. I just don't like to see conjecture stated as fact. I would say that Julie's own behavior online is evidence that she's bitter, but actually it's just a name that I like to call her because I don't like her, and shouldn't be taken as a factual statement.

All I was pointing out was that Julie is the polar opposite of an impartial observer, and therefore I don't feel like what she says has much value. Especially when by her own admission (or claim), Jodi is cut off from the Gosselins and thus Julie is cut off from the gossip gravy train that has been her online claim to fame.

Then I follow with an interview Jon did which states that at least one show was the idea of the producers.

Well, to be fair, you posted that AFTER I had responded, so I wasn't responding to that. But I certainly don't disbelieve that some of the outings are at least partially producer-driven. I think you may have a more literal interpretation of "this is their life" than I do - I just take it to mean that they act like themselves, hopefully aren't recreating conversations for the cameras, etc. Not that the producers don't ever suggest or arrange an outing. I don't mistake J&K for cinema verite.

And then you wanted proof that Kate would bring her free clothes to a consignment store. I tell you it was written on one of her to do lists shown on the show and you counter that well, I can't believe that you would imply that she would write something down and then not do it. REALLY?

Oh, come on - that was just an aside. I was just trying to cover all contingencies by bringing up the possibility that she never actually went to the consignment store. The gist of my argument was:

1) This proves that Kate (maybe) went to a consignment store once, not that she goes regularly;

2) The words "go to consignment store" provide no clues as to what, in fact, Kate was doing at the consignment store;

3) Maybe she was picking up stuff;

4) Or selling stuff;

5) Which may or may not have been clothes that belonged to the sextuplets (J&K wear clothes, too);

6) And if they were sextuplet clothes, these clothes may or may not have been donated (I can't remember if the "donated" aspect was part of your original point, but I know it was part of the original complaint about how greedy and awful Kate is).

That is why I think one line on a to do list isn't evidence of anything.

erin said...

A anon: This is my thought on the presents (speculation, because I'm not sure of J/K's gift process). The way it usually works is the presents/letters for celebrities go through a third party (production, management, etc) who sorts through the materials then forwards along what they deem appropriate. With Jon and Kate I would assume that gift cards and cash are forwarded directly to Jon and Kate. I would guess only some of the presents are (what happens to the rest, I don't know maybe they are donated by the production/management to a charity). I can't say for sure that J/K operate in this way, but I remember a story in a magazine about a celebrity getting married and how gifts from fans were handled.

How could that affect the Christmas show? I'm not sure--more kids, greater volume of gifts, maybe they didn't get through them? I remember speculation that the Christmas show wasn't taped on Christmas so maybe there were fewer gifts because they hadn't gone through them all yet or maybe they were given off camera on the real Christmas. Again, it is all speculation because I'm not privy to the ways of the Gosselins, but I know that other celebs (and I use that term loosely for the Gs) have operated in that way in respect to gifts.

I'm normally so all about facts that I sat here with this composed all the way through Heroes and was very, very reluctant to pull the trigger. I don't like to speculate.

A anon post said...

Guinevere -

So, if you write down on your to do list that you need to go to the grocery store, does that mean you have no plans on going? Or don't actually intend on buying groceries (maybe you're just there for the free samples?) Or have a crush on the produce manager and you're going to check him out? Or you write down going to the grocery store but you really mean you are going to pick up a perscription?

I'm making light of your post, because, while I think I understand where you are coming, I also think you are really pushing the bounds of possibilities. (Maybe she got into her car accident coming home from the consignment store?) Can we at least take #3 off the list - she gets her clothes for free, why would she buy them even at consignment store prices?

And while I know your feeling for Julie, if Kate has going to the consignment store on her to do list and Julie states that sells her clothes to consignment stores (or did at least when Jodi was helping her out) is that still not enough proof?

And hey, while I did use the word greedy, I don't believe that I used awful or have ever stated that Kate was awful. (And if I used the work awful, how do you know I really meant she was awful? Maybe I meant lawful and forgot the "l"? Or that the way she was portrayed was awful? I might have stated that some of Kate's actions are awful though.)

Just because I don't like some of the things Jona and Kate does doesn't mean I'm a hater. I can think of some of her good qualities, just uhmmm give me a minute, or 20. (LOL)

a anon post said...

Ha - Penn Mommy to the rescue! So now I have Kate's to do list going to the consignment store, Julie stating that she sent her clothes to the consignment store and now Penn Mommy just stated on her blog -

"On top of that, I know she consigns practically everything."

Guinevere, I know this will still not convince you, but couldn't resist mentioning that yet another person, who actually knows Kate, has again verified that not only has Kate stepped foot in a consignment shop, she regularly drops off items to be consigned.

That should be my last post for the night. To be honest I'm on allergy medication and am starting to get slap happy.

anya said...

A Anon Post, I enjoy your posts and the lively debate.

I'll be checking back tomorrow to see if you have thought of a good Kate quality...! :-)

Anonymous said...

Kate stepped foot in a consignment shop, she regularly drops off items to be consigned.

Yeah, well, does it matter - because "they are her clothes to do with what she pleases."

I say give it up - because even though it doesn't seem "right" to make money off of items that didn't cost them a thing to begin with - it just doesn't matter to some people.

Things of importance just don't seem to matter here - save yourself the label of being called a "hater" or "jealous". If you say that you are just stating that it is not "right" then you're being self-righteous.

Been there done that, while I appreciate the fair and balanced conversation - the battlelines are pretty much set in stone over here.

Anonymous said...

this consigment shop thing - is it a church consigment shop where the church gets some of the revnue?

Guinevere said...

Wow, so we were just discussing the consignment issue, and Penn Mommy just happens to mention it on her blog...curious timing, that.

Other than that, I think it's the speaking in absolutes that gets to me - I'm not speaking specifically of you, an anon post, but just in general what I see from anti-G's. Kate goes to a consignment shop, so she consigns everything. Kate gets free clothes, so all of her clothes are free. There is a lot of extrapolation that goes on.

So, yeah, none of it really convinces me. And I don't even care, anyway! But Julie and Penn Mommy are unreliable narrarators (the latter with suspciously convenient timing) and one to-do list does not a regular habit make. You know what would convince me that Kate takes all of her clothes to consignment shops? If Kate said she took all of her clothes to consignment shops. When in doubt, getting it from the horse's mouth is always best.

Guinevere said...

Things of importance just don't seem to matter here - save yourself the label of being called a "hater" or "jealous". If you say that you are just stating that it is not "right" then you're being self-righteous.

So that's been my problem! I don't care about important things! Thank you, anonymous poster, for making everything clear! I once was blind, but now I see!

Or, wait...could it be that we have different perspectives on what is important?....it's just so crazy, it might be true!...

...nah. You're probably right. I just don't care about important stuff.

Fanny said...

a anon post said...
Franny -

"I just want to point out that I have never called you or Guinevere sheeple or Jon and Kate's biggest supporters. In the same context, I don't think that I would refer to myself as a hater, either. I just don't agree with a lot of choices Jon and Kate have made."

I know, and I wouldn't necessarily call you a "hater", it just makes for easier typing as opposed to "people who don't like them very much". Besides, I was mostly referring to those who I feel by their comments really do HATE them, or at least Kate.

I can understand most of the points you make, I just prefer to give them the benefit of doubt based on what I see.

Like the consignment thing. I know she's planned to do it at least once, but that doesn't mean she does it all them time. And as for the yard sale, was that for the show? Maybe. I will never know for sure. Does it matter? Not to me. I'm just glad to see that they are giving back regardless of what motivated them to do so.

nomoredrama said...

Linda - Julie has mentioned I believe on GWoP, that Kate has never given Jodi any of the free clothes.

I'm sorry, why would Jodi and Kevin need Kate's hand-me-downs? They seem to do pretty well for themselves. Why would you give your clothes to a well-off family member when you can give them to someone who actually needs clothes?
I'm not saying the Gosselins have or have not given clothing, I just don't see how you can leap from "Kevin and Jodi never got clothing" to "Jon and Kate never donate clothing." I rather doubt that they consign every article of clothing.

A anon, I don't meant to be rude, but can you think of what you view as "evidence" critically? If Kate were on trial for cosigning every item and you were the prosecution, do you think you'd win your case by calling Julie to the stand? Julie, who is the personification of the word "hearsay"? She's never personally been privy to the inner workings of the show. She's the sister of a sister-in-law. Prior to what happened with Jodi, she wasn't even really watching the show let alone being involved in the day-to-day production. Has she ever called Kate just to chat? Gone to the mall with her? I highly doubt it. So how does she know? I can tell you that a lawyer would tear her up on the witness stand at this trial. Same with Penn Mommy. She says "they never give" which is a bold faced statement then 'backs it up' with a second hand account of something that was written by someone who's identity has never been verified nor has their involvement been verified. On that note, Penn Mommy's never proven her credibility. So far, you're jury isn't buying it. Then, the hallmark of your prosecution...the to do list with the word "Consignment" on it! Guinevere's questions are the exact questions that a judge or lawyer would ask. Words written on a piece of paper alone are not proof of something.

Not only would you not win your trial, you probably wouldn't even get an indictment.

***Can you tell I'm ready for the premier of SVU?? LOL

sevenstrangers said...

Things of importance just don't seem to matter here - save yourself the label of being called a "hater" or "jealous". If you say that you are just stating that it is not "right" then you're being self-righteous.

So that's been my problem! I don't care about important things! Thank you, anonymous poster, for making everything clear! I once was blind, but now I see!

There are have been a lot of people here, not necessarily you, Guinevere who have stated the financial aspect is not important to them.

If someone brings up a rational point regarding something financial, such as "I believe it is not right for the Gosselins to misrepresent their financial status to illicit sympathy for more "freebies." - some people inevitably on this board will say "that doesn't matter to me."

I am very confused as to why some people will admit they don't really like Jon or Kate but defend them just because they don't think they "deserve" the criticism they have received. Criticism and accolades go hand in hand, when you choose to expose your life and your children's - be prepared for scrutiny. I think Linda once said some people would find with Mother Theresa - so what more two people like Jon and Kate?

I'm sorry, why would Jodi and Kevin need Kate's hand-me-downs?

I don't know why the shift has focused from the children's clothes to Kate's. When I think of "consignment" I was under the impression that Kate was selling the children's clothing. Brand name, children's clothing will get you a pretty penny if consigned - not to mention each piece times 6. Stories like this make me think - no wonder Kate such a big deal about stains, she wants to keep the clothes in "EUC" so she can maximize the money she receives for them - which is 100%profit for her since she received the clothing for free. I doubt there would be a demand for Kate's cool mom t shirts.

In regards to Jodi and Kevin - would it hurt Jon or Kate to save one of the boy's outfits for Benny? Jodi and Kevin may not "need" it - but handme downs do help and it's a nice gesture.

JMO.

Anonymous said...

"...they were filming it,so they are really getting paid to donate money."

Yes.
The money earned from the sale of the kids' clothes was FREE MONEY since they didn't pay for the clothes. Then they got paid to film the episode. Regardless of how much was donated to charity, the truth is that the Go$$elins donated NOTHING out of their own pocket.

a anon post said...

NMD -

How could you have left Judge Judy out of the mix?????? Come on, you know what she says, if it sounds true it most likely is. (Ok, maybe that's not exactly it, but any true Judge Judy fan would know what I mean. This allergy/cold - I can't decide which it is - is kicking my butt and I can't think.)

So if I was defending this "consignment case" in her court room, for evidence I would have the to do list on their tv show, and Penn Mommy because I believe she can state first hand that she saw the clothes that were going to be sent to the consignment store. Maybe Penn Mommy hasn't proven her credibility with you, but I am pretty certain she is who she says she is. (I agree I couldn't use Julie's comments because that would be heresay.)

Plus, there is absolutely no evidence of Jon and Kate doing something else with the kids clothes. (We are talking up to this garage sale.)

In my opinion, giving, charitable people give in different ways. You don't have time (which I will agree Jon and Kate don't have) than you donate money or objects other people can use. You don't have money (which up until recently Jon and Kate might have not had) you donate time or objects you no longer need. So really, for Jon and Kate, one of the best ways for them to give was to donate some of the items given to them - yet there is absolutely no evidence of them having done that. I'm confident I could win in Judge Judy's court room.

For me, it is safe to say that Penn Mommy, Super Granny (who has been outed to be Nana Bev), and Julie are not the same poster posting under different names. Yet they all tell a similiar story about Jon and Kate's behavior.

As for the hand me downs, Julie didn't state that Jodi was wanting or expecting them. It was more of "the nobody makes money off my family than me" vein.

A anon post said...

Guinevere -

I agree the posting of Penn Mommy's comment was interesting timing - however, Penn Mommy was responding to post that someone else made about Jon and Kate's charitiable giving. I didn't post the whole comment, because I didn't want to go off on another tangent, but I thought what she had to say about Jon and Kate's charitable habits very interesting.

Since your post, Julie has also chimed on the issue of Jon and Kate donating clothes. I thought that was interesting as well.

a anon post said...

Ok Anya, I've thought of a few things -

I like that Kate is allowing Cara and Mady to say when they want to be on camera, and is not forcing them to do it for the sake of the show.

I like her willingness to promote an organic lifestyle.

I also admire Kate's tenacity for getting things done, even if I don't agree with her actions. I think she is partly responsible for taking her reality TV show to a new level. Now if she could only use her powers for good instead of evil! (LOL)

Guinevere said...

There are have been a lot of people here, not necessarily you, Guinevere who have stated the financial aspect is not important to them.

What I was commenting on what the absolute use of the word "important". Some people genuinely don't seem to understand the difference between fact and opinion, and it makes rational debate difficult.

If someone brings up a rational point regarding something financial, such as "I believe it is not right for the Gosselins to misrepresent their financial status to illicit sympathy for more "freebies." - some people inevitably on this board will say "that doesn't matter to me."

Whoa. Your original statement assumes facts not in evidence and expresses what could either be termed an opinion or a rumor (i.e. that the Gosselins have lied about their financial status). I doubt anyone has said "that doesn't matter to me" in response to that - more likely, the response is along the lines of "I don't know for a fact/believe that the Gosselins have been doing that." There are things that have been brought up that have gotten the "I don't care about that" response, but certainly nothing as provocative and unproven as the allegation that the Gosselins have tried to con money out of people. I know I myself have given that response, but I can't remember to what specific issues. I would probably give it to something like the allegation that Kate sells her stuff at consignment shops, because I don't actually care about that. It's been stated many times before, but she has a right to do what she wants with her possessions.

I am very confused as to why some people will admit they don't really like Jon or Kate but defend them just because they don't think they "deserve" the criticism they have received.

Speaking for myself, I don't like to see bullying. I don't like to see unfairness. It's as simple as that, and not particularly confusing, IMO.

Though I do like J&K, pretty much. I won't defend everything they do or say, but I find them funny, entertaining people to watch, and I think they really love their kids.

Criticism and accolades go hand in hand, when you choose to expose your life and your children's - be prepared for scrutiny.

That doesn't let the criticizers off of the hook. Going on TV is not, or should not be, free rein for petty mean girls to rip your every action to shreds. It's one thing to acknowledge the fact that by putting themselves in the public eye, J&K have opened themselves up to more criticism than if they'd stayed private citizens. It's another to imply that they bring all of the hate and the other crap - the stalking, the lies, the attempts to interfere with their lives - on themselves. J&K are responsible for what they do, but the people who act against them with sanctimonious and IMO false claims of concern for the children are responsible for their own actions.

A anon post said...

Guinevere -

Please don't take this the wrong way because I mean no harm by it. But the chances of having Kate (or Jon) personally verify all the questions we have are pretty much slim to none, so since the proof you require is "getting it from the horse's mouth" is there any point in continuing you have conversations with you? No matter what I bring up, the discussion will always end with not enough evidence to prove my point.

MrsRef said...

Kate herself said they had to stop at the consignment store (I believe it was when the took the kids to the dentist) I doubt she was there to purchase anything.

Guinevere said...

Please don't take this the wrong way because I mean no harm by it. But the chances of having Kate (or Jon) personally verify all the questions we have are pretty much slim to none, so since the proof you require is "getting it from the horse's mouth" is there any point in continuing you have conversations with you?

No, I don't take it the wrong way. I'm not under the impression that J&K are going to answer my questions (which aren't my questions, anyway), nor do I think they have any obligation to. Please don't take it the wrong way when I say that it's a choice to take malicious gossip as fact, and it's not a choice that reflects particularly well on one.

a anon post said...

Guinevere, I know you are not refering to me when you refer to taking malicious gossip as fact, because I listen to what Jon and Kate says, and have used their words as the basis of my arguements, and use the people who know them (know meaning that they have met them and have spent time in their company)to support my theories.

And again I am going to point out that Supper Granny (Nana Bev), Julie and Penn Mommy all paint the same picture of Jon and Kate. Why do you think that is if there is not some "truth" to the story? Is everyone who disagrees with what they do bitter and hateful? Because this is really what I am starting to get from your posts.

Just because the truth hurts doesn't necessarily mean it is malicious or gossip.

Guinevere said...

Guinevere, I know you are not refering to me when you refer to taking malicious gossip as fact, because I listen to what Jon and Kate says, and have used their words as the basis of my arguements, and use the people who know them (know meaning that they have met them and have spent time in their company)to support my theories.

I don't know everything that you believe about the Gosselins, an anon post. IMO, if you choose to believe the worst of someone simply based on the words of people who dislike them, then you are being uncharitable. If you want to believe that Kate takes all of her childrens' clothes to consignment shops on the basis of one to-do list and the words of two people who dislike her (one of whom doesn't even really know her, and the other of whom apparently hasn't had much contact with her in years, even if you believe their own stories), that's your right. I wouldn't be surprised if she does take many clothes to consignment shops; Kate strikes me as thrifty. But I wouldn't ever say I know it as fact based on the "evidence" you've presented.

And again I am going to point out that Supper Granny (Nana Bev), Julie and Penn Mommy all paint the same picture of Jon and Kate. Why do you think that is if there is not some "truth" to the story?

Well, I've never even heard of Supper Granny before today, so I don't know what the deal is with her. I do (think) I know what the deal is with Julie, and what I know of her does not make me think that she's someone whose opinion I value or respect.

Penn Mommy - I think she has been untruthful about at least some of the things on her blog, and it makes me question both her veracity and her motives over all.

But that said, there may be some truth to the various negative stories about J&K. Some of them seem credible based on what I've seen of their respective personalities. Others don't. I simply object to things being labeled as "truth" and "fact" when we don't really know one way or another.

Is everyone who disagrees with what they do bitter and hateful? Because this is really what I am starting to get from your posts.

Not at all. I completely respect people who have qualms about the entire premise of the show. I understand people not liking Kate. I don't understand the degree of ire, but I understand disliking her.

Just because the truth hurts doesn't necessarily mean it is malicious or gossip.

And just because people throw the word "truth" around it doesn't mean that what they are saying is true. Even if everyone is saying it. Everyone used to say that the Earth was flat. Didn't mean it was true.

a anon post said...

Guinevere -

IMO, if you choose to believe the worst of someone simply based on the words of people who dislike them, then you are being uncharitable.

I never said that Kate was a horrible person for taking kids clothes to a consignment store. Since you insist on evidence, please show me were I stated that.

Nina Bell said...

a anon,

Are you also marci? I am getting confused between "a anon", "another anonymous", "againanonymous". Ladies, I think we have to come up with something a little more unique because I am confused who is questioning and answering. LOL

a anon post said...

And just because people throw the word "truth" around it doesn't mean that what they are saying is true.

Just as I can't prove what Julie and Penn Mom are saying is true, you can't prove that it's not true.

I'd be interested in hearing what you feel are Penn Mommy's untruth's. What's your evidence for basing that belief on?

And just let me throw this out there - you have pretty strong feeling (to put it mildly) about Julie - someone who you've never met and are just judging her on the basis of what she blogs. Julie has said she doesn't blog about everything, but you chose to base your opinion of her on what she choses to say. How is that different from people say about Jon and Kate based on what they see on the show?

A anon post said...

Nina -

No, I am not Marci.

AAP said...

Nina -

I'll change to AAP

Nina Bell said...

Ok

I see it now. Againanonymous changed to marci.

Thanks,

Anonymous said...

Guin, you sound like you're a very reasonable person and you're really doing a good job moderating this site,showing all sides both the positives and negatives. I like the Gosselins. And I'm glad they have that show, their kids are so cute. I do not begrudge the blessings or freebies that they receive. What they do with what they receive is their business, not anybody else's. I don't understand why a lot of people are making a big deal of this consignment issue. Also about taking something as evidence or fact. Whatever is written on those blogs mentioned like PennMommy's or Julie's, for me is either hearsay or just their own opinions, I do not see them as evidence or "truth". It's more like gossipping to me actually.It's up to the person whether he or she will want to believe and take as"truth" or "fact" what they write on their blogs, but we should all take into account the "bias" of whoever is writing it. So you can form your own theories or opinions, and I'll take it as your own theory or opinion, but that does'nt mean that I will see it as the "truth" or evidence. Anyway, I just like to say that this site is really nice. I don't feel the "hatred" and "jealousy" vibe that GWOP site has, so unbeleivable how much hatred a person can feel for somebody whom they only see on TV and whom does not know that they even exist....Anyway, again thank for this site and doing a great job in moderating this.

Guinevere said...

I never said that Kate was a horrible person for taking kids clothes to a consignment store. Since you insist on evidence, please show me were I stated that.

I never said you said that. In fact, I said I didn't really didn't know what your views on all things Gosselin are. We've been tussling back and forth about the consignment business, but I don't know (or at least remember) if you have an opinion on it beyond believing that Kate Gosselin takes every item of clothing to consignment.

AAP said...

Guinevere -

I find this confusing - You write (is it safe to assume it's me because it's in repsonse to one of my posts)

I don't know everything that you believe about the Gosselins, an anon post. IMO, if you choose to believe the worst of someone simply based on the words of people who dislike them, then you are being uncharitable.

Are you saying that if I take Penn Mom and Julie's word that the Gosselins go to consignment stores, then I am thinking the worst of Kate?

What I can say is that I have wrote about my feelings, beliefs, opinions, and the facts that come out of Jon and Kate's mouth, and none of my statements have included any reference to thinking the worst of Kate. So I don't know where you are coming from with the post I cut and pasted.

Could you please explain further?

Guinevere said...

Just as I can't prove what Julie and Penn Mom are saying is true, you can't prove that it's not true.

But you are saying it's the truth, right? I am not saying everything they've said is not true. I don't think I've ever said any one thing that Julie or Penn Mommy or anyone has said about the Gosselins is categorically untrue because how the heck would I know? I try not to confuse opinions with facts. In my opinion, some of the things they say are not true. That's all.

I'd be interested in hearing what you feel are Penn Mommy's untruth's. What's your evidence for basing that belief on?

For one, I believe she claimed to spring full grown from the brow of Zeus...no, wait, that's Roman mythology. What I meant to say is that she sprung full grown into her little blog claiming that she'd never even heard of GWoP and the Gosselin "controversy" such as it is. That was certainly the impression I got, anyway, but it was belied (belay? belayed? oh, crap, whatever) by much of the content of her writing; a lot of it seems to be carbon-copy GWoP talking points, right down to making fun of the phrase "hither, thither and yon". I think she was/is a GWoPper from way back, and if she is not being honest about that, what else is she being dishonest about?

And just let me throw this out there - you have pretty strong feeling (to put it mildly) about Julie - someone who you've never met and are just judging her on the basis of what she blogs. Julie has said she doesn't blog about everything, but you chose to base your opinion of her on what she choses to say. How is that different from people say about Jon and Kate based on what they see on the show?

Well, a few things:

1) It's not like I hate Julie, or anything. Yes, I dislike her based on what I've seen of her, which has been, IMO, pretty much all bad. She also happens to hit two personal pet peeves of mine: stupid people who think they're smart, and sleazy people who think they have integrity (though I don't know that Julie is actually stupid, I do know that her rather pretentious quoting of Blake and Schopenhauer in her blog makes her look like a big poser. I'm betting she googled that shit).

2) I'm sure some will disagree, but again, I've only seen the negative side of Julie. I really don't see how people who've watched hours and hours of J&K+8 can fairly claim to have only seen the negative side of them. And yet, I have seen those judgments so much of the time: if Kate kisses her son, he is described as flinching away in terror!; Kate is described as never hugging her kids or being loving towards them, when I've seen that behavior in probably every episode that I've watched.

It's a matter of balance. I am willing to throw Julie a bone and admit that some of her original motivation behind her blog was that she was upset at the treatment she felt her sister had received. I just think she's taken it way too far, and has gotten caught up in the (very) minor celebrity she enjoys from a coven of haters.

3) I don't have a problem with people judging or disliking J&K based on the show. I object to the relentless barrage of criticisms, the stalking (which the GWoPpers have either hopefully cut back on, or more likely gotten more discreet about), the attempts to interfere with their lives, and the mob mentality. What have I called Julie? Bitter, stupid and sleazy? (Hey, that sounds like a whacked-out version of "Snow White".) Child's play, IMO, compared to the names that Kate gets called every day. Try monster, abuser, psychotic, fat, lazy, bitch, bitch, bitch again. Try jokes about her being killed. I don't see my judgment of Julie as anywhere near as harsh.

Guinevere said...

Guin, you sound like you're a very reasonable person and you're really doing a good job moderating this site,showing all sides both the positives and negatives.

Oh, all the credit goes to Nina! I just blather about (she says, posting her third post in a row).

aap said...

Guinevere -

I don't know (or at least remember) if you have an opinion on it beyond believing that Kate Gosselin takes every item of clothing to consignment.

You didn't ask me to prove that they go to a consignment store regularly, just that they go. I have never stated that the Gosselin's have taken every piece of clothing to the consignment store.

You asked me to prove that they have gone there, which I feel I have based on my post with her to do list, and Mrsref confirms that when Jon and Kate go to the dentist, they also state they have to stop by the consignment store. So there are 2 instances right there.

aap said...

Just as I can't prove what Julie and Penn Mom are saying is true, you can't prove that it's not true.

But you are saying it's the truth, right?

Nope not at all. What I am saying is if I see something that Jon and Kate do on TV, and Penn Mom and Julie mention something that corresponds with what I see, it is more than likely that it is possible. Hence, I believe that take clothes to the consignment store because the probably factor is pretty high.

" What have I called Julie? Bitter, stupid and sleazy? (Hey, that sounds like a whacked-out version of "Snow White".) Child's play, IMO, compared to the names that Kate gets called every day."

Just to be clear, are you stating that just because GwOpers do it to Kate, that justifies you doing it to Julie? That 2 wrongs make a right? Or that you are not as bad as the people who call Kate bitch because you only refer to Julie as sleazy?

I'm not saying that you don't have some points about Julie. What I am saying is the you are engaging in the same behavior that you find reprehensible in the haters. I don't see much balance in your posts either.

You have to admit that Kate comes up with some good quotable lines. "hither, thither and yon" is definitely one of them, and I can tell you that way before I discovered these blogs I would frequently act like Kate, telling my husband "I have eyes everywhere" when we went out places. So it is a possibility that Penn Mom just got it from the show. It seems to me that Penn Mom tries to be more balanced than Gwop in her posts.

And like you said, the most credible source is straight from the horses mouth. Or maybe the horse's mouth doesn't always tell the truth? (which would also apply to Jon and Kate, so maybe if Kate says that she doesn't go to consignment stores, there is a possibility Kate might be lying as well? And if she lies about little things... you see where any an going with this. Maybe there is not such thing as the truth, only opinion?)

And again, if Penn Mom and Julie are telling the truth what they say really can't be considered to be malicious gossip. So since it can't be proven either way, is it fair, is it within your facts to call it malicious since you indeed can't prove that it is malicious?

Anonymous said...

the stalking, the lies, the attempts to interfere with their lives

That's what Jon and Kate do to those who have spoken out against them.

Guinevere said...

aap, I have a class to go to right now, so we'll have to continue consignment-gate later, if you don't mind. Though I'm honestly running out of enthusiasm for the topic. Care to argue about the health dangers inherent in brushing hair in the kitchen area?

nomoredrama said...

I don't know why the shift has focused from the children's clothes to Kate's. When I think of "consignment" I was under the impression that Kate was selling the children's clothing.
I meant the children's clothing. I didn't mean Kate's own clothing. Sorry I didn't specify Kate's kids but that's what I meant.

So if I was defending this "consignment case" in her court room, for evidence I would have the to do list on their tv show, and Penn Mommy because I believe she can state first hand that she saw the clothes that were going to be sent to the consignment store. Maybe Penn Mommy hasn't proven her credibility with you, but I am pretty certain she is who she says she is. (I agree I couldn't use Julie's comments because that would be heresay.)

LOL! Well, I was using the analogy of a criminal trial, where the burden of proof rests on the state to prove their case BEYOND a reasonable doubt. An item on a to-do list and non-credible witnesses do not prove your case beyond a reasonable doubt. You may personally be satisfied that Penn Mommy is who she says she is but a judge and jury are not going to just take her word for it. If you had to wager your life on whether you believe Penn Mommy is telling the truth, would you be confident enough to make that wager?

Technically, in a civil courtroom like Judge Judy's, you don't have to prove your case beyond a reasonable doubt, but you do have to provide a preponderance of evidence to suggest your claim against a defendant. If this case went before my girl Judge Judy, she'd probably say "WHO CARES...DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY YEARS OF POST GRADUATE EDUCATION I HAVE" (LOL, something she said on one of her most recent episodes). No, seriously, though, she'd question your witnesses and make them wish they never showed up to court. You know what you need to prove your case? Itemized receipts from the consignment shops that show exactly which items they have sold. In addition, you'd need proof that the items sold were gifts (like receipts from the gift-givers and accounts of when the gifts were given) and evidence to show that there is a pattern of receiving gifts and selling them. Then, do you know what Judge Judy would say "If you don't like what she does with a gift DON'T GIVE HER ONE."

Bottom line, there is nothing illegal or even immoral about consigning your kid's clothes when they grow out of them. Furthermore, you assumption that because Kate consigns clothing means she doesn't give back is just that. You're right when you say I have no evidence to say she has given. So, that's why you don't hear me say "I know Kate gives 70% of her kid's clothing to good will"
I think you need to accept that what you view as evidence is nothing more than conjecture and rumor. It wouldn't hold water in a courtroom. And for me, If I'm going to label someone a 'con artist' I need good, solid, courtroom ready evidence to do so. Not the musings of catty women with questionable mental stability (I'm talking about extreme haters, not any of the truth bloggers).

nomoredrama said...

And AAP...You said You didn't ask me to prove that they go to a consignment store regularly, just that they go. I have never stated that the Gosselin's have taken every piece of clothing to the consignment store.

I'm sorry to butt in here but this is simply not true.

You said However, up to now, Kate has chosen to take the clothes she gets for free and sell them at a consignment store for her profit.

and Guin said Is there proof of this and followed it up by saying that she doesn't care what the family does with their possessions but she'd like to see proof that Kate takes the clothes she gets for free and consigns them.

You're answer? "She had consignment shop on her to-do list" oh, and Julie and Penn Mommy said.


I don't think that any of us would be going back and forth with you if your argument had been that she goes to the consignment shop. I GO to the mall, it doesn't mean I own a kiosk. I GO to the gym, it doesn't make me a body builder. Do you see the difference?

aap said...

NMD -

However, I did not indicate that the clothes she gets for free (Gap and Gymboree) are the only clothes the kids have, and therefore can state I never said ALL of their clothes go to a consignment store.

Consignment stores generally only take the better brands.

aap said...

Guinevere -

Personally, I am hoping I could channel your tenacity for my own court case! I got a ticket at one of those Red Light enforcement camera things - however I was making a right hand turn and there were no signs stating there is no turn on red.

So technically, I did go through a red light but if there is no sign stating that I can't make a right hand turn on red?....well, I think I'm screwed out of $100 anyway. But I'm still going to try. NDM, like Judge Judy says, ignorance of the law is no excuse, and I'm sure they're going to pull a secret law stating that "you can't turn on red on Tuesdays when you are driving a silver minivan" against me.

nomoredrama said...

Actually AAP,
You're case against the ticket is stronger than your case against the Gosselins and consigning. Judge Judy would be proud :-)

I say, go back to that intersection and take pictures ASAP. You can prove that a reasonable person could not have known this was a rule since it was not posted. You definitely have a case, get to snapping some pics...

:-)

AAP said...

NMD -

I did exactly that yesterday! You can even see in the pictures that they sent me that there is no signage on the poles.

However, on the back of the form, under the rules to contest the ticket, it basically says that if you haven't sold the car or reported the car stolen, you're screwed. There's absolutely nothing about what to do if it's their error. That's why I hoping if I take it to a Judge I can plead my case - I think if I contest it in written it will just get rejected.

anya said...

AAP, as a another Judge Judy lover, I think you should *insist* on allowing your case to be heard in her court.

Unlike your local county government, she isn't looking to make a buck off of you. You might even make some dough on this! (That's the only reason I can figure some of these people show up to plead their cases).

Seriously, I wish you luck fighting "the man"!

Anya

P.S. And I appreciated you coming up with a few nice things to say about Kate. Next, I am going to challenge Guin to find something nice to say about Julie :-)

Guinevere said...

Okay, it's late, but I wanted to respond to some stuff, but I'm going to attempt to be brief (ha!).

You didn't ask me to prove that they go to a consignment store regularly, just that they go. I have never stated that the Gosselin's have taken every piece of clothing to the consignment store.

Well, maybe this was a misunderstanding (I sure don't want to follow the thread of the conversation back to try to prove anything one way or another). I believe some people said that Kate takes everything to consignment - maybe Penn Mommy or Julie. My impression was certainly not just that you were saying she'd gone there once or twice. But really, this horse is soooo dead at this point. The Society for the Protection of Dead Horses has asked us to please stop beating her.

Nope not at all. What I am saying is if I see something that Jon and Kate do on TV, and Penn Mom and Julie mention something that corresponds with what I see, it is more than likely that it is possible.

I think to a degree we all see confirmation of what we want to believe and ignore evidence to the contrary. I just take issue with the word "truth", because it's so absolute. And because none of us, as far as I know, are close enough to any of the parties involved to really know the truth - all we're getting is second-or-third hand accounts from people who are prejudiced one way or another (and yes, I would include J&K in that description).

Just to be clear, are you stating that just because GwOpers do it to Kate, that justifies you doing it to Julie? That 2 wrongs make a right? Or that you are not as bad as the people who call Kate bitch because you only refer to Julie as sleazy?

My first reaction was to say no; it bugged me when the GWoPpers were saying that it was okay for them to call the Gosselin kids "oafish", "future serial killer", etc., because what their parents were doing to them was just So Much Worse.

But what I'm really trying to say: look, I don't pretend that my calling Julie names is nice or noble. It's a low-grade level of bitchiness, and I can live with myself for it. If Kate Gossein were getting the sort of criticism I have given Julie, I doubt this blog would exist. I know I wouldn't be spending the time on it that I have! It's because the behavior of the GWoPpers (at least some of them) is so egregiously bad, mean, inappropriate, etc. that any counter-movement (such as it is; I hate to even use such pretentious phrases in regards to a reality show. Did I mention it's late?) has even sprung up.

So, no, I am not saying that it's okay for me to call Julie names because Kate gets called worse names. I'm saying it's okay (sorta, kinda) to call people the sort of names I've called Julie. It's okay to call Kate those names. It's not okay to call CPS or the IRS on her, to harrass ministers, to drive by her house and take pictures, to repeat every nasty rumor you hear about her as fact on the internet, to call her a monster, to say that she doesn't love her kids. Etc., etc., etc. I have a line for acceptable bitchiness and some of the anti-Gosselinites have stepped far, far beyond that line.

I'm not saying that you don't have some points about Julie. What I am saying is the you are engaging in the same behavior that you find reprehensible in the haters. I don't see much balance in your posts either.

Again, I see it as a matter of degrees. Hell, even if were just the worst of the name calling, I'd care a lot less. It's the interfering with the Gosselins' lives that I really find reprehensible.

I try to be as balanced as possible - I mean, I'm willing to admit when I agree on a point (like, 40-50 eps is probably too many, or Kate really needs to unclench sometimes). But if I'm not balanced, it's because the level of vitriol makes me feel like I have to defend Kate (and Jon, to a lesser degree), all the time. I just don't feel like voluntarily joining a pile-on, you know? It's not fun for me.

Or possibly, I'm just an argumentative beeyotch.

And again, if Penn Mom and Julie are telling the truth what they say really can't be considered to be malicious gossip. So since it can't be proven either way, is it fair, is it within your facts to call it malicious since you indeed can't prove that it is malicious?

Alert: possible nitpicking, over-parsing and annoying certain other posters ahead.

I think it's fair to call what Julie and Penn Mommy have been doing gossip, absolutely. Gossip doesn't have to be false, does it? So it doesn't matter if it's true or not; I consider it gossip (it's now WAY too late to start looking up the dictionary definition of words, and anyway, isn't it kind of annoying when people do that?).

And at least in Julie's case, I definitely consider it malicious. True, I don't know what's in Julie's heart, but going by what I've seen of her online? I think she haaaates Kate Gosselin. Like, wouldn't spit on her if she were on fire hate. That's just my opinion, of course, but I would definitely say Julie has malice towards Kate.

Personally, I am hoping I could channel your tenacity for my own court case! I got a ticket at one of those Red Light enforcement camera things - however I was making a right hand turn and there were no signs stating there is no turn on red.

However, on the back of the form, under the rules to contest the ticket, it basically says that if you haven't sold the car or reported the car stolen, you're screwed. There's absolutely nothing about what to do if it's their error. That's why I hoping if I take it to a Judge I can plead my case - I think if I contest it in written it will just get rejected.


aap, that sucks! Is that even constitutional? You should have some redress; it really doesn't seem right that you wouldn't.

I fought a ticket once, also regarding making a right turn on red. I had stopped at a red light, waited for some pedestrians, and then turned, and got pulled over by a motorcycle cop who insisted that I had made a Hollywood stop. WHICH I TOTALLY HADN'T DONE! I had been waiting a good 30 seconds before the pedestrians cleared. It was obvious he hadn't even really seen what had happened. I was so mad, I started crying, and he was all, "what are you crying about?" and of course, I couldn't be all, "because you're dumbshit who stops people and tickets them for things that they DIDN'T DO!"

Anyway, I got my day in court, but it was rather deflating - it turned out he'd never technically put the ticket in the system. It would've been nice if they'd let me know that before I made a court date and took off work and all that.

Anyway, I hope your ticket gets resolved! When people say, "it's not the money, it's the principle", it's usually the money. But in cases like this, it's both, and it would be really unfair if you had to pay the ticket.


Next, I am going to challenge Guin to find something nice to say about Julie :-)

Pfft. That's easy. I believe Julie really loves her sister. Much like J&K in relation to their kids, I believe that Julie is not intentionally harming Jodi. She's just misguided. And kind of a bitch. (What? You didn't say I had to say ONLY nice things about her.)

MCB said...

Yes. The money earned from the sale of the kids' clothes was FREE MONEY since they didn't pay for the clothes. Then they got paid to film the episode. Regardless of how much was donated to charity, the truth is that the Go$$elins donated NOTHING out of their own pocket.

See class, this is an example of wanting it both ways. Or looking for something to complain about. Or hypocrisy. Or all of the above.

You complain if the Gosselin's sell their kids clothes at consignment because they're profiting off something they got for free. But, when they don't send it to consignment and instead give it to charity, you STILL whine and complain. It DOESN'T MATTER that they didn't pay for the items. They are NOT profiting from the resale of them. The CHARITY IS.

Besides, how you you know for a fact that only "freebie" clothes went to that charitable garage sale? I'm willing to bet it was a combination of freebie and boughten clothing.

There is an organization in our town that has a yearly garage sale at a local church hall. They ask for donations and the money earned goes to the charities and scholarships they support. You mean to tell me that if I donate something that was gifted to me (which if you're donating a bunch of stuff, chances are you didn't buy everything you're getting rid of), that I'm a bad person for doing so? Who gives a crap? It's ALL GOING TO CHARITY whether I bought it or not. SOMEONE other than myself is BENEFITING. Whether it be a disadvantaged family getting some name brand clothing at a discounted price at the garage sale, or the charity that gets the money in the end.

Hey, look at that. TWO groups actually benefit from my freebie!

So, let's review so I can get this straight. The Gosselin's shouldn't sell things at consignment because they're profiting. But they also shouldn't donate the same things to charity because they were probably free to begin with so it didn't cost the Gosselins anything. Okay. So, what should they do with those perfectly usable items that would benefit someone else? Hang onto them even though they've all out grown them? Burn them? Toss them in the landfill? Oh yeah. That makes perfect sense.

Except not.

MCB said...

But really, this horse is soooo dead at this point. The Society for the Protection of Dead Horses has asked us to please stop beating her.

Guin, I fear that only PETA will be able to handle the herd of dead horses that is beaten to death at GWoP. Actually, it may be beyond their capabilities, because the GWoPpers not only beat them, they ship 'em to the Elmer's factory on the Hot Air Express.

anya said...

MCB and Guin, you guys are comedy genius.

Of course, in fairness, you have golden material to work with!

Anonymous said...

Not a hater and certainly not a supporter,

Yes,I use to view weekly, but for me, I just deduced that me watching was contributing to the exploitation as I was only watching to see the cute kids.

I challenge any true supporter to show me any indication that this show is enriching these kids' lives 1 iota. Is going to WDW and not being allowed to enjoy ice cream on a hot day any better for a 3 year than playing in the mud at home? Is having a film crew in your home better than having loving grandparents in your home? Is having 2 parents working opposite shifts, ensuring that 1 parent is always at home to tend to your needs worse than being forced to provide 80% of your family's income when you're less than 10 years old?

I am not jealous...my husband and I have the number of kids that we calculated that WE could support on OUR(parental) incomes. The G's do not possess any material things that we do not also own...it's not the things that they have that I disagree with... it's how they obtain these things. How can anyone support the use of minor children as a vehicle for supporting a family? Lastly, I hope that protections are in place so that these kids have some income to show for all the work that they've done. People with jobs in the USA have laws in place that govern the workplace...the Gosselin kids deserve those protections as well.

anya said...

Anonymous said... "Yes,I use to view weekly, but for me, I just deduced that me watching was contributing to the exploitation as I was only watching to see the cute kids."

Good for you. Can you get the word out to fellow like-minded folks that they are NOT required to watch a show that they dislike and/or are uncomfortable with?

"I challenge any true supporter to show me any indication that this show is enriching these kids' lives 1 iota."

I think your challenge is a bit out of my league. Thankfully, I consider it J&K's (the parents) job to determine whether the benefits outweigh the costs for their kids.

"The G's do not possess any material things that we do not also own"

Whew, glad to hear that. I was concerned.

"Lastly, I hope that protections are in place so that these kids have some income to show for all the work that they've done. People with jobs in the USA have laws in place that govern the workplace...the Gosselin kids deserve those protections as well."

Agreed.

Anonymous said...

Anya,


Thankfully we can agree to disagree. Too bad K/J do not possess the skills necessary to determine that this show is NOT enhancing their children's lives. In fact, I think J&K +8 illustrates weekly just how detrimental this show is to every member of their family. Hopefully, J/K will get the help they need sooner rather than later, and get back to supporting their family in a manner that is healthy for all 10 of them.

GLO said...

Anonymous @ 6:31 p.m.

"I think J&K +8 illustrates weekly just how detrimental this show is to every member of their family."

Can you give an example? I am not trying to be snarky, I am really curious as to what you see as illustrations of determents to the family's well-being.

"...J/K will get the help they need sooner rather than later..."

What kind of help do you think they need?

Thanks in advance for clarifying your position.

Anonymous said...

The total absence of close friends and family.

The sudden exclusion of family and friends who, "love our children". as quoted numerous times by Kate.

Sign on a door, multiple hands on camera len, and door slammings to avoid being filmed by the camera (7 year old).

Too numerous to count tantrums (by all children and 1 adult female).

Vomiting (1 4 year old). Also reported incidents of daily vomiting for over 1 year. Report was given by the mother.

Overt favoritism of certain children. (by mother)


Numerous recorded accounts of verbal genderism. (by mother and reinforced by father)


Inappropriate reaction to interruption in air travel d/t weather related problems. 1 adult female


Kate is anxious, this causes her to react with tantrums and verbal assaults (lack of typical coping skills). This behavior isolates her (and the family) from other people, both family and friends alike. Jon follows the path of least resistance and placates Kate and her behaviors. He may not agree with her, but by remaining silent he contributes to and reinforces the dysfunction.

What kind of help do I think they need? See above and you do the math. First and foremost, stop the show.

Anonymous said...

Is going to WDW and not being allowed to enjoy ice cream on a hot day any better for a 3 year than playing in the mud at home?
What is it with some people and mud? Are you the same poster on GWoP who talked about eating mud and worms? A child can exist in a world where they have not eaten horse shit, worms, and parasites.

As if the kids really gave a crap that mom was snippy when they were eating ice cream. WHO CARES??????

GLO said...

Anonymous @ 8:36 a.m.

Thanks for replying. I do have some further clarifications for discussion, if you're willing.

"The total absence of close friends and family."

This would be total absence from the show, but this does not necessarily mean total absence from their lives. I realize this is a "reality" show, but that does not mean that everyone who knows and interacts with the Gosselins are willing to participate in the show, and honestly, with all of the ensuing negativity, I can't blame them.

"The sudden exclusion of family and friends who, 'love our children'. as quoted numerous times by Kate."

Would this have happened regardless if the show was in existence? I don't know, but it seems that many people purportedly "in the know" have said the J&K have done this before the show even existed. Without knowing all of the details involved in the situations with Beth (no info on either side that I'm aware of) and Jodi (Julie's p.o.v. on this issue), it is difficult to make any good judgment.

"Sign on a door, multiple hands on camera len, and door slammings to avoid being filmed by the camera (7 year old)."

I can agree that this is a sign that Maddy may have issues with being filmed, but on the other hand, there are several occasions where she plays up and mugs to the camera.

"Too numerous to count tantrums (by all children and 1 adult female)."

In my experience as a teacher, the tantrums by the children are completely normal behavior for children their ages and not indicative to psychological damage by the show. As far as Kate goes, she is overly dramatic and anxious, and I believe she would behave in this fashion even if cameras weren't present.

"Vomiting (1 4 year old). Also reported incidents of daily vomiting for over 1 year. Report was given by the mother."

I have a niece that had this problem from the ages of 2-4. She would get herself so worked up and upset that she would gag and sometimes vomit. According to the doctor, this was not a a major concern, since she did not do it after every meal, and she did grow out of it. If I recall, Kate mentioned that Leah tended to do this when J&K were leaving (e.g. Sunday school at church), so it may be a reaction from severe separation anxiety. Would this still occur without a show? Quite possibly.

"Overt favoritism of certain children. (by mother)"

I don't personally don't find this to be as apparent as some others do, but, once again, would this be any different without the show?

"Numerous recorded accounts of verbal genderism. (by mother and reinforced by father)"

I think this would remain the same with or without the show.

"Inappropriate reaction to interruption in air travel d/t weather related problems. 1 adult female"

Inappropriate reaction is most likely due to Kate's personality, and not necessarily due to the T.V. show. Whether or not it was inappropriate depends on one's point of view.

"Kate is anxious, this causes her to react with tantrums and verbal assaults (lack of typical coping skills). This behavior isolates her (and the family) from other people, both family and friends alike. Jon follows the path of least resistance and placates Kate and her behaviors. He may not agree with her, but by remaining silent he contributes to and reinforces the dysfunction."

Again, I see this as personality issues, not so much issues with the show.

"What kind of help do I think they need? See above and you do the math. First and foremost, stop the show."

IMO, all of the above issues save the first that you pointed out are related to the personalities of the people involved, and not necessarily a result of the show. How would stopping the show "fix" any of these issues?

Thanks for your input.

MrsRef said...

Anonymous2:01: Actually I think the kids did give a crap that mom was "snippy" at Disney World. Watch the footage, they are all screaming and crying because they wanted ice cream and she was yelling that one of them was "ruined." That was seriously an over the top moment. Contrast that with footage of the tups first birthday party when one of them, I believe it was Alexis or Leah was covering her little face with icing and having a grand old time - mom wasn't yelling then. It was actually cute to watch.

Anonymous said...

Glo: Stopping the show would most likely reduce the stress level in that house, relieve some of Kate's anxiety and take them off of everyone's radar so they can live an ordinary life. Look at J&K in the beginning and now. Yes, they have material things now but they just seem so different and not in a good way. They actually seemed loving when they were sitting on the bed folding laundry.

Anonymous said...

Glo,


Thanks for your response. It's nice to see that we are able to disagree respectfully.

I tend to agree that the behaviors that we observe in this famliy are going to remain no matter what, and yes, without treatment that house will remain dysfunction. However, I do wholeheartedly agree with PP who states that, "The show contributes to Kate's anxiety." Therefore, stopping the show would decrease the overall stress in that household. Again, treatment and counseling still remain 100% necessary for positive, healthy outcomes to be achieved.


PP, No I'm not the person who has a thing for mud and worms....And you must be kidding....Kate's reaction(or over) to the ice cream vs clothing was over-the-top by any functional adults' opinion. Please do not tell me that you could see yourself reacting in a similar fashion. As a medical professional, I must caution you that type of behavior is a big-old-red-flag in the medical community and is most certainly not ok. Let's also keep in mind that this type of behavior is not any isolated incident with Kate. It's her typical, go- to response. Think: WDW(ice cream), Joelgate(vomit), Gumgate (gum), Crayola (markers), Cupcake Gate (frosting) and on and on....I'm sorry there's just nooooo defending this behavior.

Anonymous said...

Darn It, PP, I forgot 1 other thing in response to, "WHO CARES". Many people care about the kids and their environment. I am no longer a viewer, because I believe that it's wrong to be a voyeur in those kids' lives, but as a compassionate person I do care about how others (especially those who are minors or marginalized in any way) are treated.

GLO said...

Anonymous,
Thanks for responding to my post. It is nice to be able to have calm discussion about this show and the surrounding issues, whether the individuals involved agree or disagree.

Regarding your comment:
"'The show contributes to Kate's anxiety.' Therefore, stopping the show would decrease the overall stress in that household."

I would agree that the show does contribute to Kate's anxiety, but stopping the show might not decrease the total stress. If the show ended, I assume J&K would have to get jobs outside of the home in order to support their family, which in today's economy, would be quite difficult. I am not arguing whether or not J&K should or should not be working outside the home, rather that stopping the show would add other stressors to their lives.

Anonymous said...

Glo,

Yes, I totally see where you're coming from. I use to say the same thing...show or no show, the kids still have the same parents. I just can not agree with airing the kids' lives when the kids have no say in the decision making. Hence why I do not watch.

I think the big fat elephant in the room is the fact they have 8 kids. How many of us have 8 kids? I have 2 kids, could I do 6 more and still be reasonably functional? Probably not, but that's why I didn't have 8 kids.

I still think in the long run, treatment, family support and adult jobs is the way to go. Would it be hard, yes, but life is hard. Also, when the Gosselins decided on a large family they had to know and accept that their road would require more work than the average family. Not necessarily fair but a clear reality. Remember, the Gosselins chose this reality. It was not forced on them.

GLO said...

Anonymous,

I can see your point about choices, and I can understand your reasoning for why you believe the kids would be better off without a show. Thanks for replying.