OK, I'm the only person in America without a DVR (kidding, but that's closer to the truth than I would like to admit) and I can't ever see TV on Monday nights. I am counting on you people to fill me in! Keep the details coming!
Well, luckily both J&K+8 and LKL are each repeated at midnight. So, you can watch one at 9:00 and one at 12:00.
Are those T-Mobile "Classic moments with Jon and Kate" a new thing? I have LPBW on, and it was shown during a commercial break. It was cute, it was all about meal times.
I just finished watching the interview. The questions appeared to be many of the same questions that were asked last week.
Kate looked great and she seems more comfortable with speaking publicly as time goes on. She stated they had a lot of help the first year and how important having the father actively involved is.
She was interviewed via satellite from Chicago. I think she is there on another speaking engagement.
Larry King just introuced them as JANE and Kate plus 8 lol- thats a whole other show.
Oh, wonderful. A NEW rumor for the haters to start.
Seriously, it's time to get Larry King off the air - he's cranky and half the time doesn't seem to have any idea what he is talking about or who he is interviewing.
I do recall people posting at GWoP that they would love for Larry King to interview Kate Gosselin. I think they felt that he would put her in her place. Now it appears that it is Anderson Cooper that will be equal to that task.
I do recall people posting at GWoP that they would love for Larry King to interview Kate Gosselin. ------------------------------ That didn't happen because the segment was not supposed to be about her.
I am talking about over the past few months. Not today. People were always speculating what the different interviewers would do including Larry King, if they could just get Kate on the interview chair.
Yeah, I just finished it as well. She looked great (loved the earrings!).
You was very poised. For those of us who know the story, there was nothing new, but I think her perspective added dimension to the discussion. She really has made strides as a public speaker. I wonder if she has received coaching in that area?
Smart move mentioning your book, Kate!
It will be interesting to see how long this story has legs and if she appears on any other shows.
Nina Bell said...I do recall people posting at GWoP that they would love for Larry King to interview Kate Gosselin. I think they felt that he would put her in her place.
I recall that as well.
Apparently they have given up on Larry and have moved on to Bill O'Reiley aka Papa Bear (thanks Stephen Colbert).
And let's not forget, the famed (free lance) journalist "Jess" is also on the case!
Larry King just introuced them as JANE and Kate plus 8 lol- thats a whole other show.
Time to get new glasses Larry.
Larry cracks me up sometimes. You can tell he kinda knows a general theme of what his show's going to be about and is knowledgeable about current events and that theme(to an extent), but if he didn't pre-read his format sheet, he screws up like this. Other times, he is so far offbase on a guest, he does indeed look stupid, not matter how much show prep his producers did for him.
Nina Bell said...I do recall people posting at GWoP that they would love for Larry King to interview Kate Gosselin. I think they felt that he would put her in her place.
That is funny how they target who they think will go after Kate. I don't think Bill O'Reilly could give two toots about going after Kate. I do think he'd do his research on where hate mail (if he got it concerning this show)about Kate comes from and would read through their blog and call them out for what they really are, a biased hate blog against one woman. He'd call a spade a spade alright.
That link is to the transcripts from the show-- one part that I thought was interesting was when Kate said: K. GOSSELIN: Well, with our reality show, obviously, we put them out there. And, you know, our goal in our show is to show the real life of what it is like to have two sets of multiples. And basically, essentially, we've made it your business.
But I feel like generally speaking, raising children is the parents' business. And I agree, as long as they're, you know, safe and healthy and clean and doing the things they're supposed to do, that's a success, in my opinion. No more needs to be said, really.
She admits that they chose to do the show and thus chose to "make it our business" what happens in their lives. I think that perspective says a lot about how they handle criticism. They realize that having the show sets them up to be scrutinized.
I haven't watched the interview but it looks like the transcript is exactly what was said. Just from reading that, I can tell Kate is watching her um's and speaking more confidently. Good for her :).
I can see where some "advocates" might claim she's had some work done (sort of). She does look different, but I actually think it's non-surgical. One, she's lost weight. Her face is thinner. Two, her hairstyle is longer (on the side) and the frosting/striping is more pronounced. And three, it looks like she's working with a stylist. Since she claims she doesn't have the shopping or style gene when it comes to dressing herself, it's obvious that someone is picking those cute outfits. Her make up also looks professionally done, you could see that on LKL. Maybe she's also been to the tanning booth.
Because really, when could she have had time to get plastic surgery with her schedule, both on TV and in public appearances. No, I think it's just working with a trainer, a stylist and a make-up professional. She's a best selling author now, so she's making "her own money." Why not?
And I think she did herself proud on LKL. She was gracious and non-judgemental in regards to Octuplet Mom, but expressed her concerns without coming off as a hypocrite. She admitted that they put their family "out there."
I thought Kate came off really well in her segments. She seemed very comfortable speaking about the situation. I thought the other guests had interesting things to say as well. The graphic showing what all the babies would look like in the womb was certainly an eyeopener. Wow.
I enjoyed the interview. Larry does need new glasses. Calling the show Jane and Kate. For people who never have seen the show, one might think it's two lesbian's.
The only thing is Kate still needs to work on those "ums." For as much she does interviews, and even on the couch talk, those "ums" are right there.
I thought Kate did a nice job answering the questions. She does seem to be getting very comfortable on interviews!
Regarding her appearance. I believe that her appearance has been gradually changing, especially over the last year. I don't think she has had any additional surgeries. I think that she now has the means to do things that a year ago she couldn't, workout 75 minutes a day, buy more expensive clothing, possibly have a stylist, buy expensive makeup, go tanning etc. Even though I can't imagine that she would go tanning, since it isn't very "healthy", but who knows. Goodness knows that if I had the funds that she does and certainly if I was in the public eye, my appearance would DRASTICALLY change!! Good for Kate!
I feel this mom of octuplets wants to exploit her children for her own personal gain just as Jon and Kate have been doing (and still continue) with their twins and tuplets.
I find it so funny that this Mom is already attempting to "sell" her story to the media. While all doctors reports have been optimistic, these babies aren't out of the woods yet! I mean how insensitive can a mother be? You can criticize Jon and Kate for "exploiting" their kids all you want but this chick takes the cake!
I didn't watch the interview, just read the transcript, but I agree that Kate was well spoken, and was able to express empathy and concern for the mother without sounding hypocritcal.
Kate seemed to really want us to believe they only had "help" the first year. Jon said just last month that they now have a babysitter about 6 hours each day. Kate said "um" dozens of times in only a few minutes. Makes her look ridiculous.
I don't think Kate and Jon exploit their children. I think they tried for the brass ring, and snatched it. They are in an unusual position and they have made the most of it very successfully. It's been good for them, and good for their children. I think they show us a real marriage that works despite its "warts." I love big families and am glad to see one in the public eye.
I just hope New mom of Octuplets gets the help she needs. I think Kate can give an audience some insight into what New Mom must be going through. I am glad she offered her words of support.
Kate seemed to really want us to believe they only had "help" the first year. Jon said just last month that they now have a babysitter about 6 hours each day. Kate said "um" dozens of times in only a few minutes. Makes her look ridiculous.
Plenty of people have babysitters or even nannies. Most of those people have less than 8 children. Kate saying that they had a lot of help the first year doesn't at all equate to they "really want us to believe they only had "help" the first year", unless you are looking through hate-colored ears.
I don't think saying "um" a lot makes someone look ridiculous. It's no different (a little less annoying, actually, IMO) than other verbal tic such as the overuse of "like" and "basically" in speech. I think most people who aren't natural public speakers and are put in the position of public speaking use some sort of verbal crutch. Time and/or training can help, I'm sure.
I don't think Kate and Jon exploit their children. I think they tried for the brass ring, and snatched it. They are in an unusual position and they have made the most of it very successfully. ----------------------------------- Saint, I am not saying that I agree either way but how is what Jon and Kate did any different from what the new octuplet mom is doing?
Guinevere said... Kate saying that they had a lot of help the first year doesn't at all equate to they "really want us to believe they only had "help" the first year", unless you are looking through hate-colored ears.
Guinevere your comment struck me as a little off-putting because I too heard her say that they had help for the first year, but after that they were on their own. Someone upthread posted a link to the transcript so I took a look...mostly because I'm bored...and partly because I didn't like the inference that I was "looking" through "hate-colored ears".
Kate on Larry King: I am--at this point--the first year, we did have a lot of help, simply because you absolutely need extra arms to feed babies who are preemies, who have reflux and all of those issues, although our babies were very healthy. And we're grateful for that__But further on into--after the first year, it is basically Jon and I doing it.
The previous poster had a valid point. Perhaps if you listed with open ears, you'd have heard exactly what she said - not what you wanted to hear her say.
My take on the interview..it was ok. Kate is developing better interviewing skills. A little heavy on the um's but that's a hard habit to break. I wasn't impressed with the medical professionals, but then again they didn't have a lot of facts to go on, just speculation. The whole point is that she did have 8 embryos placed back into her uterus, her doctor is a quack.
The previous poster had a valid point. Perhaps if you listed with open ears, you'd have heard exactly what she said - not what you wanted to hear her say.
Sorry, I wasn't aware that the poster was specifically referring to something in the the transcript. It wasn't a case of me hearing Kate say what I "wanted to hear her say", because I haven't watched the interview.
However, what the poster said was:
Kate seemed to really want us to believe they only had "help" the first year. Jon said just last month that they now have a babysitter about 6 hours each day.
And what Kate said was:
But further on into--after the first year, it is basically Jon and I doing it.
I still think it's showing extreme bias to equate having part-time nanny help for your eight children now, several years later, as lying about "basically" doing it themselves after the first year. I took that to mean that the regular feeders and watchers stopped after that. Certainly as J&K have again taken on more responsibilities outside of the house, the need for helpers has once again increased.
I just can't relate to the literal-mindedness of some people. I guess if J&K ever hired a babysitter even once for their eight kids over any of their childhoods, that would render Kate's statement a lie?
The news media is up in arms that this doctor would "inject" this woman with 8 embryos. Kate had to have had atleast that many "injected" into her too. What is the difference between the octuplets' mom's doctor and Kate's doctor?
Even Kate admitted in the TBN interview that they felt "guilt" when they found out about expecting six babies because they knew they lacked money and Jon was out of a job. This mother also has no job, not enough money to support more children. She wants to get on the gravy train that Jon and Kate have been riding through the tups. And Mady and Cara look more and more miserable.
I like Jon and Kate and I do believe they are Christians, but I also believe their children are being exploited just as this new mom is tryng to do with the 8 new babies and six already in tow. Is TLC going to jump at this too and turn this into another reality show?
I'm tired of what Jon and Kate are doing...I know everyone here at this site will probably completely disagree with me (and that is okay) and will just tell me to stop watching the show then. I already have. It makes me sad, these kids are in a fish bowl and the parents are making money off of that... Now another mother of multiples is trying to make all these "deals" for money. I see NO difference between this woman and Jon and Kate.
The news media is up in arms that this doctor would "inject" this woman with 8 embryos. Kate had to have had atleast that many "injected" into her too. What is the difference between the octuplets' mom's doctor and Kate's doctor?
=====================
The difference between Jon and Kate's situation and the Octuplets' is that Kate WASN'T injected with 6 embryo's. She had IUI not IVF, with IUI your ovaries are stimulated and eggs released and then you are injected with sperm. They did not know until AFTER Kate was pregnant that her ovaries were over stimulated.
She had IUI not IVF, with IUI your ovaries are stimulated and eggs released and then you are injected with sperm. They did not know until AFTER Kate was pregnant that her ovaries were over stimulated.
In addition to the insensitivity to Kate's pregnancy, the theory of how she purposely got her multiples is one of my biggest peeves. For people that demand the “truth” the haters love to sling those rumors.
Other than the difference on how both woman became pregnant, they both are and are trying to exploit their children for money. It's sad. Just my own feelings.
I was watching one of the news channel morning shows today and they evidently spoke with the publicist that Octuplet Mom hired to "field offers." We've all heard that she's demanding two million for her story, but evidently the publicist is saying that there have been surprisingly few donations or offers to help.
It's a double edged sword. While you don't want to reward this woman for her irresponsible behavior (another rumor is that she may have gone to Mexico to find a doctor who would implant all eight embryos...an unfounded rumor, but it's out there). She's going to have to provide for those kids somehow. If not two million from Oprah, it will be the California tax payers paying for those kids. The babies (and their six siblings) are here. You can't shove them back in. They need food, clothing and shelter no matter what suspicions people have about their mother (who's never going to be able to work with 14 kids under the age of seven). So, while I don't advocate giving in to this woman's financial demands, what is the alternative? It's either a two million dollar payout or years and years of welfare and donations to support them.
And comparing this woman to Kate? Not even close. Not by a long shot.
I agree with you. Those fourteen children are here, and regardless of how one feels about their conception, they have basic needs that must be met. Hopefully, those companies (i.e. P&G, Gerber, etc.) who have set a precedent of helping families in these situations will step up to help this family as well.
Those children should not have to suffer because of their mother's decision.
Nina said... Regardless of the mother's motivation at this point they need to be taken care of.
I'll add my two cents and agree with this point.
I can see not wanting to celebrate the mother's questionable conception tactics in the case of the octuplets, but saying the kids don't deserve some help surviving is putting the blame in the wrong place.
We'd have to call into question orphanages, welfare and charities that benefit children that live in poverty if we were going to hold the parents up to some sort of moral meter for the kids to qualify for financial support.
Or how about grants for college-aged kids? If the kid appyling for the grant comes from a family that's too large to be able to financially send all the siblings to college do we say those kids don't deserve a college degree?
I know these are broad analogies, but you can see how limited the *logic* is that says...beyond questioning the medical and social implications of a purposeful octuplet pregnancy...that the parents and children must suffer, or at least not succeed *too* much.
No lifetime supply of diapers and wipes. No supply of formula for the first year. Nothing. The bad publicity has the corporations that usually provide these things for high order multiple families, running scared.
Like I said. Double edged sword. Mom MIGHT be an irresponsible whack job or a blatant opportunist, but those babies need to be provided for. I just don't know how to feel about it. It's actually sad.
Oh, and I just want to clear up something right here and now. Octuplet Grandma has been quoted as saying that Octuplet Mom was an only child, thus that's why she became obsessed with having so many children of her own.
Speaking on behalf of only children everywhere, may I say the following:
LADY, PUH-LEEZE!
Yeah, sometimes it's lonely being an only (hey, nice rhyme)! But I did not grow up obsessed with bringing forth a litter to make up for lost time. True, the last thing I wanted was to have only one child, myself, but that is the circumstance I was given. Coincidentally, my mother is an only child, as is her father. Four generations in a row, and it was NOT intentional, but that's the way it worked out.
I am not sure what I think about the octomommy not getting all the donations either. On the one hand I feel that supporting and enabling unsafe and unethical fertility treatments is wrong. On the other hand I agree with the other posters who say its not the fault of these babies that their mom made this decision.
I think in a way it is wise for some companies to keep away from donating a years worth of supplies, but it would be nice for them to give her some discounts or gift cards. Then again from the numbers on the article MCB posted it would take a LOT of gift cards to get through even the first month with the babies at home....
This is a paragraph the article mcb linked upthread.
The news that she is a single mother with six other children — and that all 14 were conceived by having embryos implanted — seems to have turned off many people, and companies are not exactly rushing to get publicity by piling on the freebies
I have no idea about this oct mom until we get more of the story, imo the companies that routinely give to other families of HOMs should do the same in this instance. The babies are here now, they never asked under what circumstances they were to be born. It's discriminatory against innocent little ones. It would be easy for them to give out of concern for the preemies and they could state it as such.
I have to say, I don't feel like there is any difference in the new mom and kate. Why any one would have taken the risk of HOM when they couldn't afford to lose the gamble is beyond me. The ones who lose are the kids.
There are different angles to the Octopulets Mom story that might be causing the bad publicity: 1. no husband 2. eight implanted embryos 3. no visible means of support 4. not exactly hurting for children in the first place
I think the Gosselins do not fit the above profile. When they went for fertility treatments, the odds were against HOM and both parents were employed. They have a happy marriage. Only #4 above could be said to be the same as Octuplet Mom, and 2 < 6.
I have no idea what issues the Mom has. Maybe she's guilty of gross negligence in going through with this, maybe she is mentally ill and can't be held responsible. I can't come up with an excuse for the doctor to participate in something so unhealthy for his patient and her children. I think that a doctor with a license to practice medicine wouldn't be considered mentally ill? It's not just bad for the octuplets and the older siblings, but it must be medically threatening for a woman to go through such a physical ordeal as carrying eight children at a time.
Saint, I agree with the differences between Kate and the octuplets mom. The other difference I see is the space between the kids. The octomommy's youngest is now two and her oldest is seven, whereas Jon and Kate waited till the twins were three to start trying again for another baby. They happened to have success with their second attempt, but it could have been far more drawn out than that.
Another difference is that of motive-- the octuplets mom has been reported as wanting to get publicists and start inking deals as a mothering expert when she is still in the hospital. She is requiring 2 million dollars to be interviewed. Jon and Kate kept a relatively low profile, though they did speak to media through a liaison at the hospital who was handling the situation. They were offered things like a redecorated home and other perks which they accepted. People asked what the family needed and they shared their prayer list (which, oddly enough, is now used against them). In the octuplets case it appears that companies are not jumping at the chance to give her freebies because of the controversy surrounding the situation- that in and of itself shows me that something is up which I am not sure how to interpret.
Guinevere I agree with you that people get too caught up in semantics...(they always do this, they never do that) and form extreme opinions (kids are abused and not loved because their parents yell, etc.). One innocent comment can be twisted when things are taken too literally.
But I did want to point out when you use language like "hate-filled ears" you can expect that it will put people on the defense. I don't agree with a lot of what I read about this show (this refers to both boards - I visit both) but I'm very careful not to go on the attack - it does nothing to support a point of view.
I have to agree with you. I don't think that there is any difference in the new mom and Kate either.
The thing with Kate is that she was only married for a year before she did treatments. I think that she went against doctor's advice with getting pregnant with the tups.
The bottom line is that the ones that lose are the kids. All of the multiples kids will likely end up with some type of disablility. It might not show up now, but latter in life it will. Premie babies have a higher risk of depression latter in life. All moms should consider what may happen in the future before choosing to have multiples.
"Kate seemed to really want us to believe they only had "help" the first year. Jon said just last month that they now have a babysitter about 6 hours each day."
When people want to better their image, they tend to change their "history."
Kate and Jon know that in order to keep their business going, they have to appear relatable.
Kate and Jon know that in order to keep their business going, they have to appear relatable.
I think they have to show the kids being kids, Jon being Jon, and Kate being Kate. More and more, I am convinced that the show sells because of the uniqueness of the family, not that they are relatable.
Casey said... "Kate seemed to really want us to believe they only had "help" the first year. Jon said just last month that they now have a babysitter about 6 hours each day."
Gasp!! No way! In spite of what Jon said last month and the fact I have seen some who helped Kate on the show. Ntm, that we've seen their nanny on trips with them. You're telling me that on LKL, she wanted me to believe they only had help the first year? What does she think I'm watching every week? She must not want people to watch her show and find out the truth.
Transcript excerpt from LKL: K. GOSSELIN: I am -- at this point -- the first year, we did have a lot of help, simply because you absolutely need extra arms to feed babies who are preemies, who have reflux and all of those issues, although our babies were very healthy. And we're very thankful for that.
But further on into -- after the first year, it is basically Jon and I doing it. And you see it on our show. It is -- it's all we can do. It's more work than two people can do on a given day. And that is just, if you will, eight children. I mean she has 14 and -- wow!
Nycole said...Kinley, I have to agree with you. I don't think that there is any difference in the new mom and Kate either.
The thing with Kate is that she was only married for a year before she did treatments. I think that she went against doctor's advice with getting pregnant with the tups.
The bottom line is that the ones that lose are the kids. All of the multiples kids will likely end up with some type of disablility. It might not show up now, but latter in life it will. Premie babies have a higher risk of depression latter in life. All moms should consider what may happen in the future before choosing to have multiples.
Nycole, Saint pointed out some very specific differences that aren't really a matter of opinion, they are facts. See #2, for example. I don't know how familiar you are with Kate's pregnancy, but her medical story doesn't match up at all with the octuplets mom. Kate did not ovulate. She took drugs to stimulate her ovaries, but no eggs were implanted. If you read "Multiple Blessings", you would know that Kate was very nervous about any pregnancy that involved more than two babies. Due to her religious beliefs, she would not and could not reduce, however.
Yes, she only waited a year before seeking treatment because she knew she was infertile. This wasn't a case of relax and give it a try for another six months. She was not going to be able to have a baby naturally. What difference does it make if she started treatments after one year or two years or three years of marriage? It was to her advantage and the babies to be younger, not older at the time of pregnancy. Bottom line - she wasn't going to get pregnant without treatment and wanted children, so why the judgment about when she started the process?
You also say you "think" she went against doctor's advice by pursuing the second pregnancy. What makes you "think" that? I have yet to see either Jon or Kate or any of their doctors speak about that. They would be the only ones to know this obviosuly.
Jon said a lot more than that. I know that no one here said they don't do any parenting, but sometimes I think it's implied. And I also like to go to other Gosselin blogs and read what others say, including that they don't parent their own children, and then post a response here, since they won't post my response there.
In that same interview Jon talks about other things he does with his kids including a daily art activity and gross motor activities. He also says that everything they've done is for the kids. He is also asked directly if he and Kate are the parents and do the parenting. He answers directly, "Yes." So the 4-6 hour quote should be taken in context.
For those of you who have your elementary chidlren in school for 6-7 hours a day (and then soccer practice or scouts or whatever) do you think you do the parenting, or do you think the school/coach/activity leader does?
Nycole, where did you read that Kate went against doctors orders? Just curious-- there are a lot of rumors out there and its tough to see what is true vs. what is some junk from a blog somewhere anymore.
The point remains that Jon and Kate didn't even do one of the specials for discovery health till the tups were about 18 months old. Then then did another special a year later. After this point they decided to do the show once they saw how things worked. The mother of the octuplets wants to start the kids on TV now and wants to start getting millions for even a simple interview now. Jon and Kate, from how things work in the industry according to people who work in it, most likely did not get paid for those one hour specials. They did them because, as they have mentioned, they wanted people to understand them more and to satiate curiosity. This is why I said in a different thread that the difference appears to be in motive.
Lets step back and look at it this way. A young couple in their early twenties with a set of multiples already (twins)to support and give attention to. Just starting out financially. They know if they go through with the fertility tx's with over stimulated ovaries, their is a chance of HOM.Even though they want just 'one' more baby 'now' is it in the best interest of the children to go through with it? What about the twins, is it in their best interest.In Kate's own words "we took a gamble and lost". IMO, anyone in their right mind would never 'gamble' with the lives of children.
Kate said that they only wanted one last baby. Then she goes on to say that "we took the risk and lost." That is a terrible thing to say for a mother. All six of the kids will read that one day. How sad.
Kinley, Have you had the chance to read "Multiple Blessings?" There is a more in-depth look at this issue there.
I haven't had fertility issues, so those who know please correct any misunderstanding I have. I thought that fertility treatments don't always work, and that some women spend months or years without success. Perhaps Kate knew that and wanted to start as soon as she and Jon and her doctor agreed?
"Gamble with the lives of children" is your statement Kinsley, not hers. She took "a gamble." The phrases have two different connotations. Kate took the same gamble any woman on fertility treatments takes. Nothing more. Perhaps you don't approve of any fertility treatments?
I don't see how you can say she gambled with her children's lives. I think she tried very hard to keep them alive and give them the healthiest possible life she could.
"We did not ask for sextuplets. We wanted one last baby," Gosselin tells me, quickly adding that she loves all six beyond words. "We took the risk and we lost." (emphasis mine)
Is that the quote you mean, Sandra? That is from "Bearing the Cost of Child-bearing," by John Grogan in the Philadelphia Inquirer, May 17, 2005.
I hope they will read the whole statement written, including what she "quickly added." It's too bad he didn't give her direct quote about that, but paraphrased her words instead. I think it would have been more fair myself.
Kate has used the word GAMBLE a few times. My point being, children should never be a 'gamble'. If you cannot afford the outcome do not do it. The children are the ones who pay.
Kinley said...Lets step back and look at it this way. A young couple in their early twenties with a set of multiples already (twins)to support and give attention to. Just starting out financially. They know if they go through with the fertility tx's with over stimulated ovaries, their is a chance of HOM.Even though they want just 'one' more baby 'now' is it in the best interest of the children to go through with it? What about the twins, is it in their best interest.In Kate's own words "we took a gamble and lost". IMO, anyone in their right mind would never 'gamble' with the lives of children.
Kinley, I am trying to understand if you have a specific issue with the Gosselins or if you disapprove of any family that already has twins pursuing a second pregnancy with infertility treatment.
As for the "best interest" argument, I think people make decisions every day based on the information they have at hand. Sometimes these decisions turn out for the best, sometimes for the worst, most of the time, somewhere in the middle. In reading "Multiple Blessings" and hearing Kate speak of their decision to go forward with the second pregnancy, there is nothing that screams RECKLESS to me.
As it turned out, the Gosselins got something unexpected (6 babies), but were lucky and blessed to not have significant complications. It's actually a story with a happy ending believe it or not...
Thanks, Kinsley, I understand that you don't mean "gamble with their lives." I think Kate meant "gamble on not getting HOM." The odds were against it. I am pretty sure that's a risk of these fertility treatments, though. Everyone who uses these fertility treatments takes the gamble, not just Kate. There are a lot of people who oppose fertility treatments for a variety of reasons, and your reason is one I have seen mentioned.
Kate and Jon can provide for their children now. Poverty is not a permanent condition. Actually, they look pretty financially secure to me. And their chidlren are healthy. So they've done pretty well with their gamble, IMO. And had they not taken that gamble, they wouldn't have the sextuplets. Overall, I'd consider them "winners" now. I bet Kate does too.
As far as the mom of octs, it all comes down to the doctor for me. I would so hope that any legitimate doctor would not say “yes, I will implant you with 8 embryos”. There seems to be an assumption that this woman asked for this many. As far as already having 6 children, at what point can a doctor tell you that you have enough children? Did this doctor know how many other children she had? Her mother says the new babies are beautiful but implies that her daughter isn't quite right. It seems they are private people, did they even realize what type of attention this would bring? It's all a muddle.
I was first struck by the fact that the oct mom is single. However, there is never a guarantee that both parents will be around in any case. There's divorce and untimely deaths. I do remember reading the divorce rate is higher for parents of twins. I wonder if that pattern turns on itself after a certain number and the parents cling to each other for survival. :)
Kinley, you insult all women who seek fertility treatments or carry any child. Any pregnancy is a gamble. Also, once more as cwats76 said above thread.
...They did not know until AFTER Kate was pregnant that her ovaries were over stimulated. ...
Sandra, I have heard Kate state what a priority her children are and how she loves them. Hopefully as any good parents and when age appropriate, J&K will explain to their children the responsibility of having children. I also hope she talks to her daughters about the normal emotions a woman can experience with a pregnancy. Of course, Kate's emotions were x 6. It's wonderful that a woman can be honest about her emotions when going through such a weighty decision to bring life into the world.
Have you had the chance to read "Multiple Blessings?"
I think the only thing that Nycole and Kinley have read is that other blog where the "advocates" hang out. To think that there is no difference between Kate and Octuplet Mom is something that could only be dreamed up over there in the bowels of the "advocates" Kate Hatin' imaginations.
Let's compare the two women, shall we?
Kate has 8 children, under the age of eight. Octuplet Mom has 14. FOURTEEN under the age of SEVEN, including one older child with special needs.
Kate had IUI, Octuplet Mom had IVF. Kate did not have multiple embryos implanted into her body. Octuplet Mom did, knowingly.
Kate has had TWO pregnancies. Octuplet Mom has had SIX (four single births and two multiple births). ON PURPOSE.
Kate is married and thus has an equal partner in the support and raising of her children. Octuplet Mom? Nada. She can't even go after the father for child support because he's a SPERM DONOR.
Kate and Jon both had jobs at the time of their children's conception, only getting help after they had the sextuplets and were overwhelmed. Octuplet Mom was a "professional student," living off welfare, student grants and her parents before and during all six pregnancies.
Like I said above. I do not condone rewarding what I think is completely irresponsible behavior. But, the babies are here. They are going to need to be provided for. They didn't ask to be put in this situation. Which is better? Giving into this woman's financial demands so that she has some money to raise them, or leave her hanging and let the State of California taxpayers foot the bill?
I think what is so distasteful for most is that she put a price tag on her kids. Yes, the Gosselins get paid for their reality show and Kate has a career as an author and speaker now, all because they have a healthy (and photogenic) set of twins and sextuplets. But they never threw a price out in public. Some may not see a difference between what TLC does when it makes TV specials about families with lots of kids, and this woman saying, "If you want my story, pay me two million dollars." But, I cannot recall any family that has been seen on TV ever saying "PAY ME XX AMOUNT OF DOLLARS." I think actually coming out in public with a definite price tag has offended more than just a few people.
I believe and will always believe that it is wrong to have fertility tx's without the financial stability to back it up, and that kind of stability takes years in the making. You have to ask yourself what is going to happen to the Gosselins when all of the cameras are gone, the books stop selling, and no one wants to here her speak? Are they back to scare one, asking for monetary support via website? I am just trying to be realistic. Unfortunately in today's economy things are not looking very good for someone that is just starting to build a career in any field. As far as the octuplet mom, she plainly is not a very stable woman, and that is sad for the kids.
Do you only see the gamble with fertility treatments? Based on your comments, it seems as though anyone having sex may be taking a gamble.
I know many people that have had unplanned pregnancies, so is that really any different than receiving infertility treatments? IUI and IVF are not exact sciences so a woman may not know when pregnancy will occur or if it will result in multiple births.
Additionally, multiple births don't only occur with the use of fertility treatments. Some good friends of mine are triplets and their conception was a natural one. So should everyone trying to conceive cover all their basis, just in case they have twins, trips, or even quads? What about those that aren't planning a family but birth control (or lack there of) falls through?
As far as conception goes, I do see a difference between Kate and the mother in CA. The mother of 14 has essentially been artificially inseminated for the past few years using a sperm donor. Based on media reports she had EIGHT embryos implanted. Granted, chances of all eight attaching and surviving in the womb are slim but she had EIGHT implanted knowing that she would not reduce. The Gosselins used IUI to have Kate's ovaries stimulated. During IUI the uterus and ovaries are monitored, but since it is not an exact science you never know what you are going to get. Just like you never know what you are going to get when you are trying to naturally conceive.
As MoreCowbell pointed out upthread, Figure 8 came to the Gosselins. The television series organically came about after two specials. Jon and Kate now have career opportunities that came about due to the success of the show, but they didn't go demanding $2 million from various media outlets. Both Jon and Kate worked prior to the sextuplets, after their births, and they continue to work now. Their lives and careers have changed over the years, but they did not act irresponsibly in their choice to use IUI after having twins. Irresponsible to me is allowing eight embryos to be implanted into your body when you already have six children at home because you are"obsessed" with having a large family.
But I did want to point out when you use language like "hate-filled ears" you can expect that it will put people on the defense. I don't agree with a lot of what I read about this show (this refers to both boards - I visit both) but I'm very careful not to go on the attack - it does nothing to support a point of view.
Bethann, thanks for the (unsolicited) advice, I guess. I don't see it as going on the attack, though, so much as cutting through the crap. I have seen loads and loads (and loads) of disingenuousness from those that dislike and yes, hate Kate in the time I've been on this blog. When someone uses biased language, I'm going to call them on it. If that's perceived as me going on the attack, and it turns someone off, so be it. I tend to think those people are pretty entrenched in their opinion anyway, and not likely to listen to what I have to say, no matter how respectfully I put it.
In (sort of) other news, I can't really understand someone who can't understand the differences between the Gosselins and the California mother. To me there are a number of obvious ones, and for those of you who really can't think of ANY differences, other posters have delineated several. I don't know if it's just a refusal to admit that Kate was more responsible than the octuplet mother? Anti-Gosselinites seem at times to have a lot invested in believing that Kate is the worst of the worst, and thus I guess this woman present a dilemma with some of the choices she's made. Or is it really that these people are unable to see shades of gray in anything?
As for the quote about taking the risk and losing, thanks, Saint, for including the excised part. It bothers me to see Kate's honesty used against her. She's been clear, in spite of the unsupported rumors repeated in this thread, that she wanted one more child. That doesn't mean she doesn't love her children. I think she shows them that and I think they know that, and I believe that means more than anything her kids might read on the internet later in life.
The octuplet mom and her doctor acted incrediably irresponsibly in implanting 8 embroyos. We have no idea what her thought process was-maybe she was living in denial--we don't know. But the babies do need help and I'm afraid that they will get lost in all the outrage directed toward the mother who I think needs a lot of help herself. Maybe she is as calculatiing as some people say but I tend to think there is some sort of problem going on. That doesn't excuse her irresponsible behavior but maybe it could explain it.
The issue of risk in fertility treatments is a complicated one. The fact is that anyone who tries to get pregnant is putting themselves and their potential babies at risk. There could be many complications that no one could aniticpate. The goal of fertility treatments is one healthy baby and many couples have just that. Having higher number multiples is still incrediably rare, we just hear about them all because they are so celebrated in the media. So the parents that are having treatments may very correctly antipicate a good outcome because the odds are for them in regard to the number of babies they will have.
Kate had twins in her first pregnancy and Bobbie McCaughley had one daughter in her first. They never dreamed of having 6 or 7babies. But now that the children are here; they have to be provided for. And I can't condemn anyone for not wanting to kill one or more of their children (because killing children is exactly how they see it.)
I read a very thoughtful op ed piece this morning and I agree with the author. I think we have to tread very carefully about the issues raised in this situation. I understand people are distressed and frustrated about the irrsponsibility of it all. But we have to be very careful to not impose knee jerk regulations on individual choices that are so general that they could unfairly penalize people. We are not China where the goverment dictates such things as how many children you are allowed to have.
Now in the meantime, there are 8 babies who neeed to be fed and clothed and there is a mother who seems to lack any resources. Sad.
I don't think that there is any difference in the new mom and Kate either.
I'm having a hard time understanding how in the world anyone could believe that Kate's situation was exactly like this mother's. Jon and Kate werent implanted, they were certainly not expecting to conceive 6 at once and it is (in my understanding) extremley rare that that would ever happen through the treatment that Kate had. Not to mention that Kate was not unamarried, living with her mother, with 6 children already. When you dismiss those facts its hard not to question the motives behind your statements.
I love that "theory" that Kate "planned all this" when she heard about the McCaugheys and their free house, diapers, formula etc. That's every twentysomething woman's dream. "Oh, I'll risk my life and possibly end up with no children, or disabled chldren, so I can get a free big house which will be full of crying babies and diapers."
And if it is so easy to plan, when you have super nurse knowledge, why didn't she go for octuplets herself? I know she started out with seven, but that had been done, and sextuplets were so out.
If they "planned" having six (or seven) why do they say they were upset when they found out? Wouldn't they say they were thrilled? Maybe they are just trying to throw us off.
Even if she could have planned how many kids she had, (and that they would be healthy and adorable) how could she possibly have expected to get a tv show out of it? Nothing like that had ever been done. And she supposedly started "selling" her kids before they were even born. Why wasn't there a camera crew following her pregnancy? And why did she let that first year or so of prime baby cuteness go unwatched?
I don't even think the octuplet's mom did this for the "stuff". I think it's for the attention. I just hope all those kids get the attention they need.
Guinevere said... Bethann, thanks for the (unsolicited) advice, I guess.
This was rude and uncalled for. I was trying to have an honest discussion. Please forgive me if something I said upset you. I just wish people could post without be catty - it's pointless.
When someone uses biased language, I'm going to call them on it.
That's the whole point, the original poster wasn't biased (at least on this point) she was referring to EXACTLY what Kate had said. Not what she wanted to hear her say, but word-for-word what she said.
Perhaps it's you who's biased and are put on the defense when someone has a valid point that you can't admit might be true? After all you called her out on an interview that you admit you hadn't even watched. You say she is biased, but you couldn't have know what Kate said, you didn't see it. But yet you were so sure the poster was wrong.
This was rude and uncalled for. I was trying to have an honest discussion. Please forgive me if something I said upset you. I just wish people could post without be catty - it's pointless.
You didn't upset me, but I do feel that your "advice" was passive-aggressive. Say what you will about cattiness; speaking for myself I prefer honest bitchiness to disingenuousness.
That's the whole point, the original poster wasn't biased (at least on this point) she was referring to EXACTLY what Kate had said. Not what she wanted to hear her say, but word-for-word what she said.
No, what the original poster said, again, was:
Kate seemed to really want us to believe they only had "help" the first year.
Of course that's biased language. The implication that Kate is lying, the anti-Gosselinite insistence that the Gosselins are trying to pull a fast one - it's twisting what Kate said. I already addressed this, but when Kate says that after the first year they didn't have "help", I don't think you can fairly infer that she's lying because the Gosselins have a part-time nanny now.
Perhaps it's you who's biased and are put on the defense when someone has a valid point that you can't admit might be true? After all you called her out on an interview that you admit you hadn't even watched.
Again, it wasn't clear to me that the OP was referencing something in the interview. In any case, as I said, she twisted what Kate said, as per the transcripts. I'm not sure what "valid point" you think she was making.
I do not pretend to be unbiased; I lean towards giving the Gosselins the benefit of the doubt. Not because I think that they are perfect or because I venerate them, but because I think they are human beings, like anyone else, with flaws and virtues, and deserving of respect. I don't believe that there is some sinister "truth" about them that people just refuse to see. I completely understand people having issues with the show or with Kate's personality, but I don't understand twisting everything she says and does in order to make her look bad.
You say she is biased, but you couldn't have know what Kate said, you didn't see it. But yet you were so sure the poster was wrong.
Guin--you crack me up. Your views are an acquired taste. I wasn't on board initially, but the longer I read, the more I look forward to your posts.
Thanks...I think? Am I an acquired taste like, say, Vegemite? Actually, I don't think I could ever acquire a taste for Vegemite, because that would require eating it a second time. Yuck.
Maybe I'm an acquired taste like cilantro; the first time I had that I thought it tasted soapy, but now I love it!
Guin- I guess the point I was making, and then hit the wrong button and I probably sent it anonymously, oops. When "one" doesn't takes themselves too seriously, "one" can enjoy the verbal volley, and your rapier sharp wit :).
The first part was from someone else's post. The second part was my opinion.
In my opinion, Kate is rewriting her history at these interviews she is giving. I have formed my opinion based on the things I have seen on the show, read posts from people who have dealt with them and from talks Kate and Jon had done where there are inconsistencies. I will not list what I know because I am pretty sure the majority of the people on here are aware of the controversies that surround the Gosselins.
I didn't expect perfect parenting when I watch the show. I have even made some of those mistakes and don't think I'm a bad parent.
If my kids were being judged and ridiculed like some of the Gosselin kids, I would end the show and let them have a life of normalcy, as much as it is possible considering who they are.
I guess the point I was making, and then hit the wrong button and I probably sent it anonymously, oops. When "one" doesn't takes themselves too seriously, "one" can enjoy the verbal volley, and your rapier sharp wit :).
Oh, I was just teasing you!
But I do appreciate you "get" that I don't take this all that seriously. I've been known to post something here that is joking or self-deprecating and have it get back to me that the hens are clucking about me on some hate site: "Can you believe that she admitted x!" Like it was some big scandal or something. It's so silly!
Guin- That is what I enjoy the most. When things really get cranking, and people can't see that alot of what you say is tongue in cheek. You always make me laugh.
Casey, I apologize for reading for your post wrong. You are of course, entitled to opinion. I am pretty aware of the controversies. As we saw on the episode All You Wanted to Know, J&K are also aware. However, my answer is the same to all who hold J&K to these gospel standards of literalness. It's unfair and ridiculous. Even in regards to politicians, I have never seen words and actions dissected and held to such a rigid measure. With her book and the show, the information on the help and volunteers is there. It's silly to think she would contradict on LKL with what we see for ourselves or read in her book. It's all an excuse for hatred and people trying to stir up smoke when there is no fire. The list of “inconsistencies” is a part of every day life as time moves forward.
For the record, I cannot think of anything that would compel me to make the decisions Kate has made. However, I'm an older mom. Had I been as young as Kate and in her place, I prob would have jumped at it all the while thinking of my many children. If this is a mistake for her and her family, well that's her right. I made some doozeys and I would have dared anyone to stop me.
I have swung far and wide on this show. I have a new hope that Kate can bring some reality to the responsibility of being a wife/mother. I have no idea where her family would be today if it wasn't for her. (Sorry to Jon. But I do love him as a housedad and never have given kudos for that). We all have too much to do and history certainly hasn't been fair. I like the reality of the situation being shown and hope it can bring some appreciation for the role. They are who they are and they get to live their lives as they see fit.
Carrie, What I am trying to say is this..If someone is thinking of having 'just one more' and are thinking of having fertility tx's and are not financially stable, they do not need to do it at all, because there is the risk of HOM. Yes people are taking a chance even without fertility tx's, but just like people who choose med intervention should be financially stable for the child's sake. Yes, there is a big difference in people trying to conceive naturally and people receiving help.Getting hyper stimulated ovaries and having 8 embryos implanted is way more risky than the natural way.
Kinley, I understand your point now about taking a risk on HOM when you are young and not financially set. I guess she and Jon weighed the remote HOM possibility against the possible years of treatments and thought they'd better get started. In that respect, they did "gamble and lose," though of course, we all agree, the children are in no way what "losing" means. They are a blessing, Kate has said that many times. The "loss" was getting HOM when the odds were against it and they were not financially ready (who would be?)
You are not alone in being against fertility treatments that might result in HOM. There are others who object because of the medical advice to "reduce" when there are HOM during a pregnancy. Others, like the Gosselins, just refused to consider that and dealt with it by asking for help when it happened.
I think it is a blessing that HOM are still rare. It seems like it might take a huge toll on the mother. I wonder if Kate has had some long-lasting effects to her physical well-being from carrying the tups?
Saint, Yes, the fact is that when pregnant with HOM it takes a toll on the heart, lungs, kidneys, etc..There have been cases of mothers going into heart failure as a result. I do understand that some woman do get desperate to have a child when there are problems with infertility. I think there needs to be more education out their for woman considering these options, and maybe some psychological consultations to.
I don't know if it has been mentioned here yet but I just read Ann Curry has gotten the interview with the octuplet mom. It will be on Monday's Today show and Tuesday's Dateline.
83 comments:
OK, I'm the only person in America without a DVR (kidding, but that's closer to the truth than I would like to admit) and I can't ever see TV on Monday nights. I am counting on you people to fill me in! Keep the details coming!
Well, luckily both J&K+8 and LKL are each repeated at midnight. So, you can watch one at 9:00 and one at 12:00.
Are those T-Mobile "Classic moments with Jon and Kate" a new thing? I have LPBW on, and it was shown during a commercial break. It was cute, it was all about meal times.
Larry King just introuced them as JANE and Kate plus 8 lol- thats a whole other show.
I just finished watching the interview. The questions appeared to be many of the same questions that were asked last week.
Kate looked great and she seems more comfortable with speaking publicly as time goes on. She stated they had a lot of help the first year and how important having the father actively involved is.
She was interviewed via satellite from Chicago. I think she is there on another speaking engagement.
We don't have a DVR either, scarfoot. Trust me, it'll be in reruns eventually.
Larry King just introuced them as JANE and Kate plus 8 lol- thats a whole other show.
Oh, wonderful. A NEW rumor for the haters to start.
Seriously, it's time to get Larry King off the air - he's cranky and half the time doesn't seem to have any idea what he is talking about or who he is interviewing.
Looking forward to seeing Kate though.
I do recall people posting at GWoP that they would love for Larry King to interview Kate Gosselin. I think they felt that he would put her in her place. Now it appears that it is Anderson Cooper that will be equal to that task.
I do recall people posting at GWoP that they would love for Larry King to interview Kate Gosselin.
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That didn't happen because the segment was not supposed to be about her.
Tiger
I am talking about over the past few months. Not today. People were always speculating what the different interviewers would do including Larry King, if they could just get Kate on the interview chair.
Yeah, I just finished it as well. She looked great (loved the earrings!).
You was very poised. For those of us who know the story, there was nothing new, but I think her perspective added dimension to the discussion. She really has made strides as a public speaker. I wonder if she has received coaching in that area?
Smart move mentioning your book, Kate!
It will be interesting to see how long this story has legs and if she appears on any other shows.
Nina Bell said...I do recall people posting at GWoP that they would love for Larry King to interview Kate Gosselin. I think they felt that he would put her in her place.
I recall that as well.
Apparently they have given up on Larry and have moved on to Bill O'Reiley aka Papa Bear (thanks Stephen Colbert).
And let's not forget, the famed (free lance) journalist "Jess" is also on the case!
Larry King just introuced them as JANE and Kate plus 8 lol- thats a whole other show.
Time to get new glasses Larry.
Larry cracks me up sometimes. You can tell he kinda knows a general theme of what his show's going to be about and is knowledgeable about current events and that theme(to an extent), but if he didn't pre-read his format sheet, he screws up like this. Other times, he is so far offbase on a guest, he does indeed look stupid, not matter how much show prep his producers did for him.
Nina Bell said...I do recall people posting at GWoP that they would love for Larry King to interview Kate Gosselin. I think they felt that he would put her in her place.
That is funny how they target who they think will go after Kate. I don't think Bill O'Reilly could give two toots about going after Kate. I do think he'd do his research on where hate mail (if he got it concerning this show)about Kate comes from and would read through their blog and call them out for what they really are, a biased hate blog against one woman. He'd call a spade a spade alright.
i think he said j&k plus eight, no?
anyways, i thought she looked beautiful; loved the earrings as well. She was very well spoken and overall i think made a good impression!
wtg kate!
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0902/02/lkl.01.html
That link is to the transcripts from the show-- one part that I thought was interesting was when Kate said:
K. GOSSELIN: Well, with our reality show, obviously, we put them out there. And, you know, our goal in our show is to show the real life of what it is like to have two sets of multiples. And basically, essentially, we've made it your business.
But I feel like generally speaking, raising children is the parents' business. And I agree, as long as they're, you know, safe and healthy and clean and doing the things they're supposed to do, that's a success, in my opinion. No more needs to be said, really.
She admits that they chose to do the show and thus chose to "make it our business" what happens in their lives. I think that perspective says a lot about how they handle criticism. They realize that having the show sets them up to be scrutinized.
I haven't watched the interview but it looks like the transcript is exactly what was said. Just from reading that, I can tell Kate is watching her um's and speaking more confidently. Good for her :).
I can see where some "advocates" might claim she's had some work done (sort of). She does look different, but I actually think it's non-surgical. One, she's lost weight. Her face is thinner. Two, her hairstyle is longer (on the side) and the frosting/striping is more pronounced. And three, it looks like she's working with a stylist. Since she claims she doesn't have the shopping or style gene when it comes to dressing herself, it's obvious that someone is picking those cute outfits. Her make up also looks professionally done, you could see that on LKL. Maybe she's also been to the tanning booth.
Because really, when could she have had time to get plastic surgery with her schedule, both on TV and in public appearances. No, I think it's just working with a trainer, a stylist and a make-up professional. She's a best selling author now, so she's making "her own money." Why not?
And I think she did herself proud on LKL. She was gracious and non-judgemental in regards to Octuplet Mom, but expressed her concerns without coming off as a hypocrite. She admitted that they put their family "out there."
Oh, and Dr. Sanjay Gupta? Is hot.
I thought Kate came off really well in her segments. She seemed very comfortable speaking about the situation. I thought the other guests had interesting things to say as well. The graphic showing what all the babies would look like in the womb was certainly an eyeopener. Wow.
I thought Kate did great. It was cool to see her on Larry King. Way to go!
But I feel like generally speaking, raising children is the parents' business.
Amen, to that.
Thanks for the link Lizabeth.
And I agree scrutiny is to be expected.
That said, much of what we have seen from the loudest detractors goes completely beyond scrutiny into another and very scary realm.
I enjoyed the interview. Larry does need new glasses. Calling the show Jane and Kate. For people who never have seen the show, one might think it's two lesbian's.
The only thing is Kate still needs to work on those "ums." For as much she does interviews, and even on the couch talk, those "ums" are right there.
I thought Kate did a nice job answering the questions. She does seem to be getting very comfortable on interviews!
Regarding her appearance. I believe that her appearance has been gradually changing, especially over the last year. I don't think she has had any additional surgeries. I think that she now has the means to do things that a year ago she couldn't, workout 75 minutes a day, buy more expensive clothing, possibly have a stylist, buy expensive makeup, go tanning etc. Even though I can't imagine that she would go tanning, since it isn't very "healthy", but who knows. Goodness knows that if I had the funds that she does and certainly if I was in the public eye, my appearance would DRASTICALLY change!! Good for Kate!
I feel this mom of octuplets wants to exploit her children for her own personal gain just as Jon and Kate have been doing (and still continue) with their twins and tuplets.
I find it so funny that this Mom is already attempting to "sell" her story to the media. While all doctors reports have been optimistic, these babies aren't out of the woods yet! I mean how insensitive can a mother be? You can criticize Jon and Kate for "exploiting" their kids all you want but this chick takes the cake!
I didn't watch the interview, just read the transcript, but I agree that Kate was well spoken, and was able to express empathy and concern for the mother without sounding hypocritcal.
Kate seemed to really want us to believe they only had "help" the first year. Jon said just last month that they now have a babysitter about 6 hours each day. Kate said "um" dozens of times in only a few minutes. Makes her look ridiculous.
I don't think Kate and Jon exploit their children. I think they tried for the brass ring, and snatched it. They are in an unusual position and they have made the most of it very successfully. It's been good for them, and good for their children. I think they show us a real marriage that works despite its "warts." I love big families and am glad to see one in the public eye.
I just hope New mom of Octuplets gets the help she needs. I think Kate can give an audience some insight into what New Mom must be going through. I am glad she offered her words of support.
Kate seemed to really want us to believe they only had "help" the first year. Jon said just last month that they now have a babysitter about 6 hours each day. Kate said "um" dozens of times in only a few minutes. Makes her look ridiculous.
Plenty of people have babysitters or even nannies. Most of those people have less than 8 children. Kate saying that they had a lot of help the first year doesn't at all equate to they "really want us to believe they only had "help" the first year", unless you are looking through hate-colored ears.
I don't think saying "um" a lot makes someone look ridiculous. It's no different (a little less annoying, actually, IMO) than other verbal tic such as the overuse of "like" and "basically" in speech. I think most people who aren't natural public speakers and are put in the position of public speaking use some sort of verbal crutch. Time and/or training can help, I'm sure.
I don't think Kate and Jon exploit their children. I think they tried for the brass ring, and snatched it. They are in an unusual position and they have made the most of it very successfully.
-----------------------------------
Saint,
I am not saying that I agree either way but how is what Jon and Kate did any different from what the new octuplet mom is doing?
Guinevere said...
Kate saying that they had a lot of help the first year doesn't at all equate to they "really want us to believe they only had "help" the first year", unless you are looking through hate-colored ears.
Guinevere your comment struck me as a little off-putting because I too heard her say that they had help for the first year, but after that they were on their own. Someone upthread posted a link to the transcript so I took a look...mostly because I'm bored...and partly because I didn't like the inference that I was "looking" through "hate-colored ears".
Kate on Larry King:
I am--at this point--the first year, we did have a lot of help, simply because you absolutely need extra arms to feed babies who are preemies, who have reflux and all of those issues, although our babies were very healthy. And we're grateful for that__But further on into--after the first year, it is basically Jon and I doing it.
The previous poster had a valid point. Perhaps if you listed with open ears, you'd have heard exactly what she said - not what you wanted to hear her say.
My take on the interview..it was ok. Kate is developing better interviewing skills. A little heavy on the um's but that's a hard habit to break. I wasn't impressed with the medical professionals, but then again they didn't have a lot of facts to go on, just speculation. The whole point is that she did have 8 embryos placed back into her uterus, her doctor is a quack.
The previous poster had a valid point. Perhaps if you listed with open ears, you'd have heard exactly what she said - not what you wanted to hear her say.
Sorry, I wasn't aware that the poster was specifically referring to something in the the transcript. It wasn't a case of me hearing Kate say what I "wanted to hear her say", because I haven't watched the interview.
However, what the poster said was:
Kate seemed to really want us to believe they only had "help" the first year. Jon said just last month that they now have a babysitter about 6 hours each day.
And what Kate said was:
But further on into--after the first year, it is basically Jon and I doing it.
I still think it's showing extreme bias to equate having part-time nanny help for your eight children now, several years later, as lying about "basically" doing it themselves after the first year. I took that to mean that the regular feeders and watchers stopped after that. Certainly as J&K have again taken on more responsibilities outside of the house, the need for helpers has once again increased.
I just can't relate to the literal-mindedness of some people. I guess if J&K ever hired a babysitter even once for their eight kids over any of their childhoods, that would render Kate's statement a lie?
The news media is up in arms that this doctor would "inject" this woman with 8 embryos. Kate had to have had atleast that many "injected" into her too. What is the difference between the octuplets' mom's doctor and Kate's doctor?
Even Kate admitted in the TBN interview that they felt "guilt" when they found out about expecting six babies because they knew they lacked money and Jon was out of a job. This mother also has no job, not enough money to support more children. She wants to get on the gravy train that Jon and Kate have been riding through the tups. And Mady and Cara look more and more miserable.
I like Jon and Kate and I do believe they are Christians, but I also believe their children are being exploited just as this new mom is tryng to do with the 8 new babies and six already in tow. Is TLC going to jump at this too and turn this into another reality show?
I'm tired of what Jon and Kate are doing...I know everyone here at this site will probably completely disagree with me (and that is okay) and will just tell me to stop watching the show then. I already have. It makes me sad, these kids are in a fish bowl and the parents are making money off of that... Now another mother of multiples is trying to make all these "deals" for money.
I see NO difference between this woman and Jon and Kate.
The news media is up in arms that this doctor would "inject" this woman with 8 embryos. Kate had to have had atleast that many "injected" into her too. What is the difference between the octuplets' mom's doctor and Kate's doctor?
=====================
The difference between Jon and Kate's situation and the Octuplets' is that Kate WASN'T injected with 6 embryo's. She had IUI not IVF, with IUI your ovaries are stimulated and eggs released and then you are injected with sperm. They did not know until AFTER Kate was pregnant that her ovaries were over stimulated.
She had IUI not IVF, with IUI your ovaries are stimulated and eggs released and then you are injected with sperm. They did not know until AFTER Kate was pregnant that her ovaries were over stimulated.
In addition to the insensitivity to Kate's pregnancy, the theory of how she purposely got her multiples is one of my biggest peeves. For people that demand the “truth” the haters love to sling those rumors.
cwats76,
Thank you for correcting me on that point.
Other than the difference on how both woman became pregnant, they both are and are trying to exploit their children for money. It's sad. Just my own feelings.
I was watching one of the news channel morning shows today and they evidently spoke with the publicist that Octuplet Mom hired to "field offers." We've all heard that she's demanding two million for her story, but evidently the publicist is saying that there have been surprisingly few donations or offers to help.
It's a double edged sword. While you don't want to reward this woman for her irresponsible behavior (another rumor is that she may have gone to Mexico to find a doctor who would implant all eight embryos...an unfounded rumor, but it's out there). She's going to have to provide for those kids somehow. If not two million from Oprah, it will be the California tax payers paying for those kids. The babies (and their six siblings) are here. You can't shove them back in. They need food, clothing and shelter no matter what suspicions people have about their mother (who's never going to be able to work with 14 kids under the age of seven). So, while I don't advocate giving in to this woman's financial demands, what is the alternative? It's either a two million dollar payout or years and years of welfare and donations to support them.
And comparing this woman to Kate? Not even close. Not by a long shot.
Morecowbell,
I agree with you. Those fourteen children are here, and regardless of how one feels about their conception, they have basic needs that must be met. Hopefully, those companies (i.e. P&G, Gerber, etc.) who have set a precedent of helping families in these situations will step up to help this family as well.
Those children should not have to suffer because of their mother's decision.
I agree Glo. It would be these 8 children that suffer. Regardless of the mother's motivation at this point they need to be taken care of.
Nina said...
Regardless of the mother's motivation at this point they need to be taken care of.
I'll add my two cents and agree with this point.
I can see not wanting to celebrate the mother's questionable conception tactics in the case of the octuplets, but saying the kids don't deserve some help surviving is putting the blame in the wrong place.
We'd have to call into question orphanages, welfare and charities that benefit children that live in poverty if we were going to hold the parents up to some sort of moral meter for the kids to qualify for financial support.
Or how about grants for college-aged kids? If the kid appyling for the grant comes from a family that's too large to be able to financially send all the siblings to college do we say those kids don't deserve a college degree?
I know these are broad analogies, but you can see how limited the *logic* is that says...beyond questioning the medical and social implications of a purposeful octuplet pregnancy...that the parents and children must suffer, or at least not succeed *too* much.
Saint,
I am not saying that I agree either way but how is what Jon and Kate did any different from what the new octuplet mom is doing?
I am going to sound out of it with this question, Tiger, but what is the new mom doing?
Is it the number of children? Fertility treatments? PR people? Putting out "feelers" to get money for her story?
Here's an article scarcity (hmmm, is that a word) of the donations for the Octpulets.
http://www.star-telegram.com/238/story/1182876.html
No lifetime supply of diapers and wipes. No supply of formula for the first year. Nothing. The bad publicity has the corporations that usually provide these things for high order multiple families, running scared.
Like I said. Double edged sword. Mom MIGHT be an irresponsible whack job or a blatant opportunist, but those babies need to be provided for. I just don't know how to feel about it. It's actually sad.
Oh, and I just want to clear up something right here and now. Octuplet Grandma has been quoted as saying that Octuplet Mom was an only child, thus that's why she became obsessed with having so many children of her own.
Speaking on behalf of only children everywhere, may I say the following:
LADY, PUH-LEEZE!
Yeah, sometimes it's lonely being an only (hey, nice rhyme)! But I did not grow up obsessed with bringing forth a litter to make up for lost time. True, the last thing I wanted was to have only one child, myself, but that is the circumstance I was given. Coincidentally, my mother is an only child, as is her father. Four generations in a row, and it was NOT intentional, but that's the way it worked out.
And we're ALL COMPLETELY NORMAL. Sort of.
I am not sure what I think about the octomommy not getting all the donations either. On the one hand I feel that supporting and enabling unsafe and unethical fertility treatments is wrong. On the other hand I agree with the other posters who say its not the fault of these babies that their mom made this decision.
I think in a way it is wise for some companies to keep away from donating a years worth of supplies, but it would be nice for them to give her some discounts or gift cards. Then again from the numbers on the article MCB posted it would take a LOT of gift cards to get through even the first month with the babies at home....
This is a paragraph the article mcb linked upthread.
The news that she is a single mother with six other children — and that all 14 were conceived by having embryos implanted — seems to have turned off many people, and companies are not exactly rushing to get publicity by piling on the freebies
I have no idea about this oct mom until we get more of the story, imo the companies that routinely give to other families of HOMs should do the same in this instance. The babies are here now, they never asked under what circumstances they were to be born. It's discriminatory against innocent little ones. It would be easy for them to give out of concern for the preemies and they could state it as such.
I have to say, I don't feel like there is any difference in the new mom and kate. Why any one would have taken the risk of HOM when they couldn't afford to lose the gamble is beyond me. The ones who lose are the kids.
There are different angles to the Octopulets Mom story that might be causing the bad publicity:
1. no husband
2. eight implanted embryos
3. no visible means of support
4. not exactly hurting for children in the first place
I think the Gosselins do not fit the above profile. When they went for fertility treatments, the odds were against HOM and both parents were employed. They have a happy marriage. Only #4 above could be said to be the same as Octuplet Mom, and 2 < 6.
I have no idea what issues the Mom has. Maybe she's guilty of gross negligence in going through with this, maybe she is mentally ill and can't be held responsible. I can't come up with an excuse for the doctor to participate in something so unhealthy for his patient and her children. I think that a doctor with a license to practice medicine wouldn't be considered mentally ill? It's not just bad for the octuplets and the older siblings, but it must be medically threatening for a woman to go through such a physical ordeal as carrying eight children at a time.
Saint, I agree with the differences between Kate and the octuplets mom. The other difference I see is the space between the kids. The octomommy's youngest is now two and her oldest is seven, whereas Jon and Kate waited till the twins were three to start trying again for another baby. They happened to have success with their second attempt, but it could have been far more drawn out than that.
Another difference is that of motive-- the octuplets mom has been reported as wanting to get publicists and start inking deals as a mothering expert when she is still in the hospital. She is requiring 2 million dollars to be interviewed. Jon and Kate kept a relatively low profile, though they did speak to media through a liaison at the hospital who was handling the situation. They were offered things like a redecorated home and other perks which they accepted. People asked what the family needed and they shared their prayer list (which, oddly enough, is now used against them). In the octuplets case it appears that companies are not jumping at the chance to give her freebies because of the controversy surrounding the situation- that in and of itself shows me that something is up which I am not sure how to interpret.
Guinevere I agree with you that people get too caught up in semantics...(they always do this, they never do that) and form extreme opinions (kids are abused and not loved because their parents yell, etc.). One innocent comment can be twisted when things are taken too literally.
But I did want to point out when you use language like "hate-filled ears" you can expect that it will put people on the defense. I don't agree with a lot of what I read about this show (this refers to both boards - I visit both) but I'm very careful not to go on the attack - it does nothing to support a point of view.
Kinley,
I have to agree with you. I don't think that there is any difference in the new mom and Kate either.
The thing with Kate is that she was only married for a year before she did treatments. I think that she went against doctor's advice with getting pregnant with the tups.
The bottom line is that the ones that lose are the kids. All of the multiples kids will likely end up with some type of disablility. It might not show up now, but latter in life it will. Premie babies have a higher risk of depression latter in life. All moms should consider what may happen in the future before choosing to have multiples.
"Kate seemed to really want us to believe they only had "help" the first year. Jon said just last month that they now have a babysitter about 6 hours each day."
When people want to better their image, they tend to change their "history."
Kate and Jon know that in order to keep their business going, they have to appear relatable.
I think that she went against doctor's advice with getting pregnant with the tups.
Nycole, what did the doctor say? I don't remember hearing this before. Did Kate and Beth put it in the book?
Kate and Jon know that in order to keep their business going, they have to appear relatable.
I think they have to show the kids being kids, Jon being Jon, and Kate being Kate. More and more, I am convinced that the show sells because of the uniqueness of the family, not that they are relatable.
Casey said...
"Kate seemed to really want us to believe they only had "help" the first year. Jon said just last month that they now have a babysitter about 6 hours each day."
Gasp!! No way! In spite of what Jon said last month and the fact I have seen some who helped Kate on the show. Ntm, that we've seen their nanny on trips with them. You're telling me that on LKL, she wanted me to believe they only had help the first year? What does she think I'm watching every week? She must not want people to watch her show and find out the truth.
Transcript excerpt from LKL:
K. GOSSELIN: I am -- at this point -- the first year, we did have a lot of help, simply because you absolutely need extra arms to feed babies who are preemies, who have reflux and all of those issues, although our babies were very healthy. And we're very thankful for that.
But further on into -- after the first year, it is basically Jon and I doing it. And you see it on our show. It is -- it's all we can do. It's more work than two people can do on a given day. And that is just, if you will, eight children. I mean she has 14 and -- wow!
Nycole said...Kinley, I have to agree with you. I don't think that there is any difference in the new mom and Kate either.
The thing with Kate is that she was only married for a year before she did treatments. I think that she went against doctor's advice with getting pregnant with the tups.
The bottom line is that the ones that lose are the kids. All of the multiples kids will likely end up with some type of disablility. It might not show up now, but latter in life it will. Premie babies have a higher risk of depression latter in life. All moms should consider what may happen in the future before choosing to have multiples.
Nycole, Saint pointed out some very specific differences that aren't really a matter of opinion, they are facts. See #2, for example. I don't know how familiar you are with Kate's pregnancy, but her medical story doesn't match up at all with the octuplets mom. Kate did not ovulate. She took drugs to stimulate her ovaries, but no eggs were implanted. If you read "Multiple Blessings", you would know that Kate was very nervous about any pregnancy that involved more than two babies. Due to her religious beliefs, she would not and could not reduce, however.
Yes, she only waited a year before seeking treatment because she knew she was infertile. This wasn't a case of relax and give it a try for another six months. She was not going to be able to have a baby naturally. What difference does it make if she started treatments after one year or two years or three years of marriage? It was to her advantage and the babies to be younger, not older at the time of pregnancy. Bottom line - she wasn't going to get pregnant without treatment and wanted children, so why the judgment about when she started the process?
You also say you "think" she went against doctor's advice by pursuing the second pregnancy. What makes you "think" that? I have yet to see either Jon or Kate or any of their doctors speak about that. They would be the only ones to know this obviosuly.
Actually, Jon said the helper is 4-6 hours a day.
Jon said a lot more than that. I know that no one here said they don't do any parenting, but sometimes I think it's implied. And I also like to go to other Gosselin blogs and read what others say, including that they don't parent their own children, and then post a response here, since they won't post my response there.
In that same interview Jon talks about other things he does with his kids including a daily art activity and gross motor activities. He also says that everything they've done is for the kids. He is also asked directly if he and Kate are the parents and do the parenting. He answers directly, "Yes." So the 4-6 hour quote should be taken in context.
For those of you who have your elementary chidlren in school for 6-7 hours a day (and then soccer practice or scouts or whatever) do you think you do the parenting, or do you think the school/coach/activity leader does?
Nycole, where did you read that Kate went against doctors orders? Just curious-- there are a lot of rumors out there and its tough to see what is true vs. what is some junk from a blog somewhere anymore.
The point remains that Jon and Kate didn't even do one of the specials for discovery health till the tups were about 18 months old. Then then did another special a year later. After this point they decided to do the show once they saw how things worked. The mother of the octuplets wants to start the kids on TV now and wants to start getting millions for even a simple interview now. Jon and Kate, from how things work in the industry according to people who work in it, most likely did not get paid for those one hour specials. They did them because, as they have mentioned, they wanted people to understand them more and to satiate curiosity. This is why I said in a different thread that the difference appears to be in motive.
Lets step back and look at it this way.
A young couple in their early twenties with a set of multiples already (twins)to support and give attention to. Just starting out financially. They know if they go through with the fertility tx's with over stimulated ovaries, their is a chance of HOM.Even though they want just 'one' more baby 'now' is it in the best interest of the children to go through with it? What about the twins, is it in their best interest.In Kate's own words "we took a gamble and lost". IMO, anyone in their right mind would never 'gamble' with the lives of children.
Kate said that they only wanted one last baby. Then she goes on to say that "we took the risk and lost." That is a terrible thing to say for a mother. All six of the kids will read that one day. How sad.
Kinley,
Have you had the chance to read "Multiple Blessings?" There is a more in-depth look at this issue there.
I haven't had fertility issues, so those who know please correct any misunderstanding I have. I thought that fertility treatments don't always work, and that some women spend months or years without success. Perhaps Kate knew that and wanted to start as soon as she and Jon and her doctor agreed?
"Gamble with the lives of children" is your statement Kinsley, not hers. She took "a gamble." The phrases have two different connotations. Kate took the same gamble any woman on fertility treatments takes. Nothing more. Perhaps you don't approve of any fertility treatments?
I don't see how you can say she gambled with her children's lives. I think she tried very hard to keep them alive and give them the healthiest possible life she could.
"We did not ask for sextuplets. We wanted one last baby," Gosselin tells me, quickly adding that she loves all six beyond words. "We took the risk and we lost." (emphasis mine)
Is that the quote you mean, Sandra?
That is from "Bearing the Cost of Child-bearing," by John Grogan in the Philadelphia Inquirer, May 17, 2005.
I hope they will read the whole statement written, including what she "quickly added." It's too bad he didn't give her direct quote about that, but paraphrased her words instead. I think it would have been more fair myself.
Kate has used the word GAMBLE a few times. My point being, children should never be a 'gamble'. If you cannot afford the outcome do not do it. The children are the ones who pay.
Kinley said...Lets step back and look at it this way.
A young couple in their early twenties with a set of multiples already (twins)to support and give attention to. Just starting out financially. They know if they go through with the fertility tx's with over stimulated ovaries, their is a chance of HOM.Even though they want just 'one' more baby 'now' is it in the best interest of the children to go through with it? What about the twins, is it in their best interest.In Kate's own words "we took a gamble and lost". IMO, anyone in their right mind would never 'gamble' with the lives of children.
Kinley, I am trying to understand if you have a specific issue with the Gosselins or if you disapprove of any family that already has twins pursuing a second pregnancy with infertility treatment.
As for the "best interest" argument, I think people make decisions every day based on the information they have at hand. Sometimes these decisions turn out for the best, sometimes for the worst, most of the time, somewhere in the middle. In reading "Multiple Blessings" and hearing Kate speak of their decision to go forward with the second pregnancy, there is nothing that screams RECKLESS to me.
As it turned out, the Gosselins got something unexpected (6 babies), but were lucky and blessed to not have significant complications. It's actually a story with a happy ending believe it or not...
Thanks, Kinsley, I understand that you don't mean "gamble with their lives." I think Kate meant "gamble on not getting HOM." The odds were against it. I am pretty sure that's a risk of these fertility treatments, though. Everyone who uses these fertility treatments takes the gamble, not just Kate. There are a lot of people who oppose fertility treatments for a variety of reasons, and your reason is one I have seen mentioned.
Kate and Jon can provide for their children now. Poverty is not a permanent condition. Actually, they look pretty financially secure to me. And their chidlren are healthy. So they've done pretty well with their gamble, IMO. And had they not taken that gamble, they wouldn't have the sextuplets. Overall, I'd consider them "winners" now. I bet Kate does too.
As far as the mom of octs, it all comes down to the doctor for me. I would so hope that any legitimate doctor would not say “yes, I will implant you with 8 embryos”. There seems to be an assumption that this woman asked for this many. As far as already having 6 children, at what point can a doctor tell you that you have enough children? Did this doctor know how many other children she had? Her mother says the new babies are beautiful but implies that her daughter isn't quite right. It seems they are private people, did they even realize what type of attention this would bring? It's all a muddle.
I was first struck by the fact that the oct mom is single. However, there is never a guarantee that both parents will be around in any case. There's divorce and untimely deaths. I do remember reading the divorce rate is higher for parents of twins. I wonder if that pattern turns on itself after a certain number and the parents cling to each other for survival. :)
Kinley, you insult all women who seek fertility treatments or carry any child. Any pregnancy is a gamble. Also, once more as cwats76 said above thread.
...They did not know until AFTER Kate was pregnant that her ovaries were over stimulated. ...
Sandra, I have heard Kate state what a priority her children are and how she loves them. Hopefully as any good parents and when age appropriate, J&K will explain to their children the responsibility of having children. I also hope she talks to her daughters about the normal emotions a woman can experience with a pregnancy. Of course, Kate's emotions were x 6. It's wonderful that a woman can be honest about her emotions when going through such a weighty decision to bring life into the world.
Have you had the chance to read "Multiple Blessings?"
I think the only thing that Nycole and Kinley have read is that other blog where the "advocates" hang out. To think that there is no difference between Kate and Octuplet Mom is something that could only be dreamed up over there in the bowels of the "advocates" Kate Hatin' imaginations.
Let's compare the two women, shall we?
Kate has 8 children, under the age of eight. Octuplet Mom has 14. FOURTEEN under the age of SEVEN, including one older child with special needs.
Kate had IUI, Octuplet Mom had IVF. Kate did not have multiple embryos implanted into her body. Octuplet Mom did, knowingly.
Kate has had TWO pregnancies. Octuplet Mom has had SIX (four single births and two multiple births). ON PURPOSE.
Kate is married and thus has an equal partner in the support and raising of her children. Octuplet Mom? Nada. She can't even go after the father for child support because he's a SPERM DONOR.
Kate and Jon both had jobs at the time of their children's conception, only getting help after they had the sextuplets and were overwhelmed. Octuplet Mom was a "professional student," living off welfare, student grants and her parents before and during all six pregnancies.
Like I said above. I do not condone rewarding what I think is completely irresponsible behavior. But, the babies are here. They are going to need to be provided for. They didn't ask to be put in this situation. Which is better? Giving into this woman's financial demands so that she has some money to raise them, or leave her hanging and let the State of California taxpayers foot the bill?
I think what is so distasteful for most is that she put a price tag on her kids. Yes, the Gosselins get paid for their reality show and Kate has a career as an author and speaker now, all because they have a healthy (and photogenic) set of twins and sextuplets. But they never threw a price out in public. Some may not see a difference between what TLC does when it makes TV specials about families with lots of kids, and this woman saying, "If you want my story, pay me two million dollars." But, I cannot recall any family that has been seen on TV ever saying "PAY ME XX AMOUNT OF DOLLARS." I think actually coming out in public with a definite price tag has offended more than just a few people.
I believe and will always believe that it is wrong to have fertility tx's without the financial stability to back it up, and that kind of stability takes years in the making. You have to ask yourself what is going to happen to the Gosselins when all of the cameras are gone, the books stop selling, and no one wants to here her speak? Are they back to scare one, asking for monetary support via website? I am just trying to be realistic. Unfortunately in today's economy things are not looking very good for someone that is just starting to build a career in any field. As far as the octuplet mom, she plainly is not a very stable woman, and that is sad for the kids.
Kinley -
Do you only see the gamble with fertility treatments? Based on your comments, it seems as though anyone having sex may be taking a gamble.
I know many people that have had unplanned pregnancies, so is that really any different than receiving infertility treatments? IUI and IVF are not exact sciences so a woman may not know when pregnancy will occur or if it will result in multiple births.
Additionally, multiple births don't only occur with the use of fertility treatments. Some good friends of mine are triplets and their conception was a natural one. So should everyone trying to conceive cover all their basis, just in case they have twins, trips, or even quads? What about those that aren't planning a family but birth control (or lack there of) falls through?
As far as conception goes, I do see a difference between Kate and the mother in CA. The mother of 14 has essentially been artificially inseminated for the past few years using a sperm donor. Based on media reports she had EIGHT embryos implanted. Granted, chances of all eight attaching and surviving in the womb are slim but she had EIGHT implanted knowing that she would not reduce. The Gosselins used IUI to have Kate's ovaries stimulated. During IUI the uterus and ovaries are monitored, but since it is not an exact science you never know what you are going to get. Just like you never know what you are going to get when you are trying to naturally conceive.
As MoreCowbell pointed out upthread, Figure 8 came to the Gosselins. The television series organically came about after two specials. Jon and Kate now have career opportunities that came about due to the success of the show, but they didn't go demanding $2 million from various media outlets. Both Jon and Kate worked prior to the sextuplets, after their births, and they continue to work now. Their lives and careers have changed over the years, but they did not act irresponsibly in their choice to use IUI after having twins. Irresponsible to me is allowing eight embryos to be implanted into your body when you already have six children at home because you are"obsessed" with having a large family.
But I did want to point out when you use language like "hate-filled ears" you can expect that it will put people on the defense. I don't agree with a lot of what I read about this show (this refers to both boards - I visit both) but I'm very careful not to go on the attack - it does nothing to support a point of view.
Bethann, thanks for the (unsolicited) advice, I guess. I don't see it as going on the attack, though, so much as cutting through the crap. I have seen loads and loads (and loads) of disingenuousness from those that dislike and yes, hate Kate in the time I've been on this blog. When someone uses biased language, I'm going to call them on it. If that's perceived as me going on the attack, and it turns someone off, so be it. I tend to think those people are pretty entrenched in their opinion anyway, and not likely to listen to what I have to say, no matter how respectfully I put it.
In (sort of) other news, I can't really understand someone who can't understand the differences between the Gosselins and the California mother. To me there are a number of obvious ones, and for those of you who really can't think of ANY differences, other posters have delineated several. I don't know if it's just a refusal to admit that Kate was more responsible than the octuplet mother? Anti-Gosselinites seem at times to have a lot invested in believing that Kate is the worst of the worst, and thus I guess this woman present a dilemma with some of the choices she's made. Or is it really that these people are unable to see shades of gray in anything?
As for the quote about taking the risk and losing, thanks, Saint, for including the excised part. It bothers me to see Kate's honesty used against her. She's been clear, in spite of the unsupported rumors repeated in this thread, that she wanted one more child. That doesn't mean she doesn't love her children. I think she shows them that and I think they know that, and I believe that means more than anything her kids might read on the internet later in life.
The octuplet mom and her doctor acted incrediably irresponsibly in implanting 8 embroyos. We have no idea what her thought process was-maybe she was living in denial--we don't know. But the babies do need help and I'm afraid that they will get lost in all the outrage directed toward the mother who I think needs a lot of help herself. Maybe she is as calculatiing as some people say but I tend to think there is some sort of problem going on. That doesn't excuse her irresponsible behavior but maybe it could explain it.
The issue of risk in fertility treatments is a complicated one. The fact is that anyone who tries to get pregnant is putting themselves and their potential babies at risk. There could be many complications that no one could aniticpate. The goal of fertility treatments is one healthy baby and many couples have just that. Having higher number multiples is still incrediably rare, we just hear about them all because they are so celebrated in the media. So the parents that are having treatments may very correctly antipicate a good outcome because the odds are for them in regard to the number of babies they will have.
Kate had twins in her first pregnancy and Bobbie McCaughley had one daughter in her first. They never dreamed of having 6 or 7babies. But now that the children are here; they have to be provided for. And I can't condemn anyone for not wanting to kill one or more of their children (because killing children is exactly how they see it.)
I read a very thoughtful op ed piece this morning and I agree with the author. I think we have to tread very carefully about the issues raised in this situation. I understand people are distressed and frustrated about the irrsponsibility of it all. But we have to be very careful to not impose knee jerk regulations on individual choices that are so general that they could unfairly penalize people. We are not China where the goverment dictates such things as how many children you are allowed to have.
Now in the meantime, there are 8 babies who neeed to be fed and clothed and there is a mother who seems to lack any resources. Sad.
I don't think that there is any difference in the new mom and Kate either.
I'm having a hard time understanding how in the world anyone could believe that Kate's situation was exactly like this mother's. Jon and Kate werent implanted, they were certainly not expecting to conceive 6 at once and it is (in my understanding) extremley rare that that would ever happen through the treatment that Kate had. Not to mention that Kate was not unamarried, living with her mother, with 6 children already. When you dismiss those facts its hard not to question the motives behind your statements.
I love that "theory" that Kate
"planned all this" when she heard about the McCaugheys and their free house, diapers, formula etc.
That's every twentysomething woman's dream. "Oh, I'll risk my life and possibly end up with no children, or disabled chldren, so I can get a free big house which will be full of crying babies and diapers."
And if it is so easy to plan, when you have super nurse knowledge, why didn't she go for octuplets herself? I know she started out with seven, but that had been done, and sextuplets were so out.
If they "planned" having six (or seven) why do they say they were upset when they found out? Wouldn't they say they were thrilled? Maybe they are just trying to throw us off.
Even if she could have planned how many kids she had, (and that they would be healthy and adorable) how could she possibly have expected to get a tv show out of it? Nothing like that had ever been done. And she supposedly started "selling" her kids before they were even born. Why wasn't there a camera crew following her pregnancy? And why did she let that first year or so of prime baby cuteness go unwatched?
I don't even think the octuplet's mom did this for the "stuff". I think it's for the attention. I just hope all those kids get the attention they need.
Guinevere said...
Bethann, thanks for the (unsolicited) advice, I guess.
This was rude and uncalled for. I was trying to have an honest discussion. Please forgive me if something I said upset you. I just wish people could post without be catty - it's pointless.
When someone uses biased language, I'm going to call them on it.
That's the whole point, the original poster wasn't biased (at least on this point) she was referring to EXACTLY what Kate had said. Not what she wanted to hear her say, but word-for-word what she said.
Perhaps it's you who's biased and are put on the defense when someone has a valid point that you can't admit might be true? After all you called her out on an interview that you admit you hadn't even watched. You say she is biased, but you couldn't have know what Kate said, you didn't see it. But yet you were so sure the poster was wrong.
Bias goes both ways.
This was rude and uncalled for. I was trying to have an honest discussion. Please forgive me if something I said upset you. I just wish people could post without be catty - it's pointless.
You didn't upset me, but I do feel that your "advice" was passive-aggressive. Say what you will about cattiness; speaking for myself I prefer honest bitchiness to disingenuousness.
That's the whole point, the original poster wasn't biased (at least on this point) she was referring to EXACTLY what Kate had said. Not what she wanted to hear her say, but word-for-word what she said.
No, what the original poster said, again, was:
Kate seemed to really want us to believe they only had "help" the first year.
Of course that's biased language. The implication that Kate is lying, the anti-Gosselinite insistence that the Gosselins are trying to pull a fast one - it's twisting what Kate said. I already addressed this, but when Kate says that after the first year they didn't have "help", I don't think you can fairly infer that she's lying because the Gosselins have a part-time nanny now.
Perhaps it's you who's biased and are put on the defense when someone has a valid point that you can't admit might be true? After all you called her out on an interview that you admit you hadn't even watched.
Again, it wasn't clear to me that the OP was referencing something in the interview. In any case, as I said, she twisted what Kate said, as per the transcripts. I'm not sure what "valid point" you think she was making.
I do not pretend to be unbiased; I lean towards giving the Gosselins the benefit of the doubt. Not because I think that they are perfect or because I venerate them, but because I think they are human beings, like anyone else, with flaws and virtues, and deserving of respect. I don't believe that there is some sinister "truth" about them that people just refuse to see. I completely understand people having issues with the show or with Kate's personality, but I don't understand twisting everything she says and does in order to make her look bad.
You say she is biased, but you couldn't have know what Kate said, you didn't see it. But yet you were so sure the poster was wrong.
And it turns out I was right. Imagine that.
Guin said--
speaking for myself I prefer honest bitchiness to disingenuousness.
Guin--you crack me up. Your views are an acquired taste. I wasn't on board initially, but the longer I read, the more I look forward to your posts.
Merryway,
That's a very nice post...I agree completely. I keep thinking to myself, "Well-said, Merryway!" whenever I read your posts.
You say she is biased, but you couldn't have know what Kate said, you didn't see it.
Lizabeth linked the transcripts above. Guin had access to the interview in written form.
Guin--you crack me up. Your views are an acquired taste. I wasn't on board initially, but the longer I read, the more I look forward to your posts.
Thanks...I think? Am I an acquired taste like, say, Vegemite? Actually, I don't think I could ever acquire a taste for Vegemite, because that would require eating it a second time. Yuck.
Maybe I'm an acquired taste like cilantro; the first time I had that I thought it tasted soapy, but now I love it!
Guin-
I guess the point I was making, and then hit the wrong button and I probably sent it anonymously, oops.
When "one" doesn't takes themselves too seriously, "one" can enjoy the verbal volley, and your rapier sharp wit :).
To Merryway:
The first part was from someone else's post. The second part was my opinion.
In my opinion, Kate is rewriting her history at these interviews she is giving. I have formed my opinion based on the things I have seen on the show, read posts from people who have dealt with them and from talks Kate and Jon had done where there are inconsistencies. I will not list what I know because I am pretty sure the majority of the people on here are aware of the controversies that surround the Gosselins.
I didn't expect perfect parenting when I watch the show. I have even made some of those mistakes and don't think I'm a bad parent.
If my kids were being judged and ridiculed like some of the Gosselin kids, I would end the show and let them have a life of normalcy, as much as it is possible considering who they are.
I guess the point I was making, and then hit the wrong button and I probably sent it anonymously, oops.
When "one" doesn't takes themselves too seriously, "one" can enjoy the verbal volley, and your rapier sharp wit :).
Oh, I was just teasing you!
But I do appreciate you "get" that I don't take this all that seriously. I've been known to post something here that is joking or self-deprecating and have it get back to me that the hens are clucking about me on some hate site: "Can you believe that she admitted x!" Like it was some big scandal or something. It's so silly!
Guin-
That is what I enjoy the most. When things really get cranking, and people can't see that alot of what you say is tongue in cheek. You always make me laugh.
Casey, I apologize for reading for your post wrong. You are of course, entitled to opinion. I am pretty aware of the controversies. As we saw on the episode All You Wanted to Know, J&K are also aware.
However, my answer is the same to all who hold J&K to these gospel standards of literalness. It's unfair and ridiculous. Even in regards to politicians, I have never seen words and actions dissected and held to such a rigid measure. With her book and the show, the information on the help and volunteers is there. It's silly to think she would contradict on LKL with what we see for ourselves or read in her book. It's all an excuse for hatred and people trying to stir up smoke when there is no fire. The list of “inconsistencies” is a part of every day life as time moves forward.
For the record, I cannot think of anything that would compel me to make the decisions Kate has made. However, I'm an older mom. Had I been as young as Kate and in her place, I prob would have jumped at it all the while thinking of my many children. If this is a mistake for her and her family, well that's her right. I made some doozeys and I would have dared anyone to stop me.
I have swung far and wide on this show. I have a new hope that Kate can bring some reality to the responsibility of being a wife/mother. I have no idea where her family would be today if it wasn't for her. (Sorry to Jon. But I do love him as a housedad and never have given kudos for that). We all have too much to do and history certainly hasn't been fair. I like the reality of the situation being shown and hope it can bring some appreciation for the role. They are who they are and they get to live their lives as they see fit.
Thanks St, you made me blush and smile.
Carrie,
What I am trying to say is this..If someone is thinking of having 'just one more' and are thinking of having fertility tx's and are not financially stable, they do not need to do it at all, because there is the risk of HOM.
Yes people are taking a chance even without fertility tx's, but just like people who choose med intervention should be financially stable for the child's sake.
Yes, there is a big difference in people trying to conceive naturally and people receiving help.Getting hyper stimulated ovaries and having 8 embryos implanted is way more risky than the natural way.
Kinley,
I understand your point now about taking a risk on HOM when you are young and not financially set. I guess she and Jon weighed the remote HOM possibility against the possible years of treatments and thought they'd better get started. In that respect, they did "gamble and lose," though of course, we all agree, the children are in no way what "losing" means. They are a blessing, Kate has said that many times. The "loss" was getting HOM when the odds were against it and they were not financially ready (who would be?)
You are not alone in being against fertility treatments that might result in HOM. There are others who object because of the medical advice to "reduce" when there are HOM during a pregnancy. Others, like the Gosselins, just refused to consider that and dealt with it by asking for help when it happened.
I think it is a blessing that HOM are still rare. It seems like it might take a huge toll on the mother. I wonder if Kate has had some long-lasting effects to her physical well-being from carrying the tups?
You made some interesting points.
Saint,
Yes, the fact is that when pregnant with HOM it takes a toll on the heart, lungs, kidneys, etc..There have been cases of mothers going into heart failure as a result. I do understand that some woman do get desperate to have a child when there are problems with infertility. I think there needs to be more education out their for woman considering these options, and maybe some psychological consultations to.
I don't know if it has been mentioned here yet but I just read Ann Curry has gotten the interview with the octuplet mom. It will be on Monday's Today show and Tuesday's Dateline.
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