Thursday, August 21, 2008
An Important Comment
This was submitted as a comment under Open Discussion. I decided to move it to the front page to make sure everyone was able to see it.
Kat Coble said...
I wrote a religious post today for GWoP. It is there under the heading of "Before You Dig Deep..." (The title was given to the post by the administrators, but everything else I wrote.)
I realise that a lot of people who post over at GWoP seem more interested in attacking the Gosselins' appearance, mannerisms and parenting methods. There are several of us, though, who have openly stated that we are not in favour of the various slams and ARE in it purely for advocating for the children.
My purpose in following postings over there is twofold: I DO wish that some attention would be brought to bear on the children's lifestyle while filming--because I think they are overworked.
I am also interested in an honest picture of the Gosselins' financial status, as I am a Christian and wonder if it is appropriate for them to continue to solicit donations from the church under the pretense of financial need.
I do not hate the Gosselins. I do not bear them ill will AT ALL. I truly love them as a sister in Christ and hope the best for them.
I invite all of you to read the post I wrote today and be open with me regarding any criticisms you may have about the content.
It is my hope that you here will realise that the GWoP community is as large and varied as any other internet forum and the aims of the group are not always the shared aims of the individuals who participate there.
I appreciate that this forum exists to bring some balance to the discussion, and I would hope that balance would extend toward fairmindedness when evaluating the participants of the GWoP threads.
August 21, 2008 2:43 PM
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47 comments:
How nice of her to not only write a well-written piece, but to address the non GWOP crowd, too.
I felt the post was well written and an interesting perspective. I never really understood the whole "Love Offering" thing. I kind of always felt that most of the people that attended their talks were intelligent and could figure out for themselves if they wanted to participate or not. I know when I donate to charity, I do a little research first.
I do realize that GWoP has a very large audience and not everyone that participates there, holds the same beliefs.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.
I feel people are fair when they evaluate individual participants at GWop. It is usually only the radical posters that are questioned. We probably are at fault here for lumping everyone in together. There is nothing wrong with questioning. There is someting wrong with personally attacking this family.
I respect your post because it is clear cut what your issues are and you do not bring in all of the other nonsense.
I read your post on gwop, and I was with you until the part about the McCaughey family. This part inparticular:
"I'm sure that to a girl who grew up in the Christian and Missionary Alliance denomination, the fact that a family could have seven babies AND get everything paid for -- houses, cars, clothes and college -- seemed better than winning the lottery."
I've seen this posted time and time again from the anti Gosselin croud, and it seems far fetched to me.
You are basically saying that Kate figured all she needed to do to get a free ride was have 6 babies.
I don't buy it and I think it is a sensational accusation that fits right in with the gwop mentality.
I respect the post too...I've admitted that I do have a problem with that site and it isn't because individuals have different opinions that I do.
I think that as adults, we can have discussions and not agree. Plus, Im sure we all have some GWoP talking points that we agree with.
I will try to be careful about lumping posters together but it's hard because, IMO, you are the minority poster at GWoP. Maybe, instead of saying GWoPer's,or people from IMP, we can say "the radicals?" The "radical" supporters or the "radical" non-supporters...I don't know....
i understand your concerns and also appreciate your post.
personally, i have tried unsuccessfully to leave comments on GWOP that were rejected. they were extremely fair and civil, but were more PRO G's than the ongoing negative comments that are undoubtedly posted. that's been my experience with GWOP, and some of the content over there makes my stomach turn...it TRULY puts me in a foul mood, so i try and stay away.
as far as your concerns about the family...
i asked this question on another board and noone ever responded to me. ppl seem to be so upset over the G's receiving "love offerings" due to their claim of financial stress.
has anyone been to a speaking engagement recently? i highly doubt that they are crying poverty at this time. OF COURSE, in the beginning they were, b/c i'm certain they were in need. now, earning a good amount of money for their show and receiving the "fee" for the speaking engagements...they are obviously doing much better.
i'm not totally on board with this new fee thing, but their status has certainly increased...and i think it's just par for the course.
IF i were to attend a speaking engagement, lets say next week, and i heard J&K saying they were in financial distress, then, yes i would be up in arms, b/c at this point... we KNOW that's not true!
but, WHY IN THE WORLD are we holding their claims of financial turmoil they made BEFORE they hit it "big", against them??? this is what boggles my mind. some ppl will never let them live it down!
also, if i were to attend a speaking engagement, i WOULD NOT give to them b/c...i'm of sound mind and i know they do not need my money. noone is forcing anyone to give!
just a side note...i couldn't imagine what it will take to raise 8 children for 18 years!!!!
as far as the kids being "overworked", i totally don't agree with that, but that's JMO.
they DO NOT rehearse lines 10 hours a day, in hair and makeup for hours, up all hours of the nite...on and on. it's not a "3-2-1 and we're on" type of show whatsoever. i see these kids behave just as normal as any other child. they do the same day-to-day activities as most 4 yo do. they certainly are privileged to get the special trips they do, but certainly not overworked.
have you ever seen any other documentaries regarding large families where the kids are up at the crack of dawn doing chores, farm work, older ones acting as parents...that IMO is overworking your children.
I am actually going to their speaking engagement at the church in Abington, PA. I will report back and let you know if they try to cry "poor mouth."
I also know that it may not be pretty because some members of GWoP are planning to crash the party. What will really crack, me up is if all they are crashing is a Sunday church service with the Gosselins speaking , no Q & A. A lot of times with guest speakers in churches, they don't have Q & A.
Also, unless I see proof that they are getting 25,000 dollars per speaking engagement, I will not believe it. It's gotta be more proof than "Julie Said"....
Kat,
I read your article on GWOP when Nina was kind enough to bring it to my attention. I have e-mailed Nina my thoughts, but wanted to tell you personally (as best as can be done through a blog post :0)
that I found your article to be extremely well-written and I am in accord with all you had to say.
Thank you for thoughtfully and effectively explaining the Christian perspective regarding Jon and Kate and why we need to hold our brother and sister in Christ accountable for actions that may not be glorifying to Him.
God's blessings to you.
Interesting post. I respect your belief that the Gosselin children are overworked, but I myself would need to see evidence of that before I could evaluate that claim.
I am also interested in an honest picture of the Gosselins' financial status, as I am a Christian and wonder if it is appropriate for them to continue to solicit donations from the church under the pretense of financial need.
I guess I'm not sure why your being a Christian and the Gosselins being Christian means you have a right to know about their finances? If you were a member of a church that gave them money, I would understand it, but otherwise, I really don't. And as has been pointed out, I don't know that they do still solicit donations on the basis of financial need.
Without knowing more about the Gosselins' finances, I don't know if they are in "need" or not. At first glance, it's easy to say "not", based on the money we all imagine they rake in from their show. But eight kids are expensive to raise, and again, I don't know anything about their situation (and don't feel I have any right to know), so I can't judge. I wouldn't give them money, but I don't begrudge others for doing so, if the spirit moves them.
nomoredrama...
that's great, definitely fill us in and let us know the truth about their message!
i'm counting on you ;)
I read here once a week or so, whenever I am caught up reading on my prefered blog.
First of all I would like to say that I am glad this site exsists if nothing more than to keep the cat fighting among yourselves.
When speaking about the Gossslins, people have shown to be very passionate in their opinions. So the need for a second blog was a good idea.
I do have a couple of gripes and the first is how much this blog cites GWoP and the things they post. Talking about another blog and another post seems to be poor netiquette. Why is it necessary to drag another blogs opinions thru the mud and with such meaness? I have never read anyone over at GWoP do that to anyone over here. I am really not intending to be rude, but it is almost comical and in poor taste.
That is why I like that site. While it may be too one-sided for some peoples taste, at least we aren't having conversations about the posts over here! I think that is very immature and says alot about those who do that.
Lastly, to NOMOREDRAMA....I must comment on your chameleon like postings. I have read horribly mean things posted by you on a different site. Posters love copy and pasting pages and pages of content from GWoP. My you can be very foul. When I have read your posts at GWoP it is a completely different tone. You write with respect. And here you post in yet another tone. That is certainly your right, but I can't read even your sanely written posts for not knowing which NOMOREDRAMA I am speaking to. You obviously enjoy the other site where you can be so hateful. And I am going to assume you enjoy that. As for me, and the other people I have communicated with, NOMOREDRAMA is full of DRAMA.
Thanks for allowing me to get some things off my chest.
I will try to be careful about lumping posters together but it's hard because, IMO, you are the minority poster at GWoP. Maybe, instead of saying GWoPer's,or people from IMP, we can say "the radicals?" The "radical" supporters or the "radical" non-supporters...I don't know....
August 21, 2008 6:02 PM
I would say from some of the posts you have penned, you certainly are radical. How two faced you really are.
Hi to the GWoPers!! Thanks for coming over and proving our points. Much appreciated! Have a great day. :)
Okay, "anonymous",
Please explain to me the difference between snarking on your beloved gwop, and you snarking on a family you don't know?
I am calling you out.
And fiona, I don't recall anyone here posting comments directed at the children. 'Joely call me in 5 years'...that'll make him what, 9? WTF was that? I think by "radical" she meant "creepy" and with posts like that, you definately qualify.
I also know that it may not be pretty because some members of GWoP are planning to crash the party. What will really crack, me up is if all they are crashing is a Sunday church service with the Gosselins speaking , no Q & A. A lot of times with guest speakers in churches, they don't have Q & A.
Also, unless I see proof that they are getting 25,000 dollars per speaking engagement, I will not believe it. It's gotta be more proof than "Julie Said"....
First I'm a very moderate to on the sliding out the door poster at GWoP. Somehow I think it's getting crazier and crazier over there or I'm getting more sensitive. I'm just sticking around to read comments on new episodes, but beating up Kate for not jumping in when Jon was an arm's length away was too much.
But tell me please, where is this crashing the church service posted?
I know where the $25K speaking fee arose. Someone called the PR firm and asked. Call up Julie May and see what rate she's quoting for them this week.
Jenn,
Your right, so I took it down.
The only reason I FOUND this blog was because someone was making fun of it on GWoP. So the point that GWoP doesn't trash other blogs is moot.
Anon 9:19 AM
And there you go, doing exactly what you were cutting other people down for on this site. You see, you are not allowed to do that over there. But you really do enjoy it because you had to come over here and give it to someone. You are no better. You should have just kept quiet.
LOL!! Anon 9:19 or should I say Fiona as the writing style is almost exactly the same....
I never made my dislike for GWoP a secret. My POV is the same on every site I post on (and I only read 3 and post on 2). I'm also sarcastic, EVERYWHERE..I'm not always kind but I try to be respectful on here and on GWOP because there are others coming from a different viewpoint and if we are going to have a discussion, we can't be flinging insults back and forth. You see, unlike the folks at GWoP (where you are likely from), I actually want to hear the other side's perspective. What I don't want to hear are the bogus accusations, the location of J&K's beachhouse, the ramblings of people making diagnoses they can't spell or even pronounce (Münchausen's, anyone?)
Secondly, the hypocrisy in your statements is ASTOUNDING!! You want to talk about different tones on different sites? Have I ever come over to GWoP and attacked you personally? No, see, that conduct is not allowed...Even if it was, I wouldn't do that. That's called being a troll! But here, where you can have an opinion, you all come out of the woodwork...name call, attack directly, even tell a poster to STFU (Manda to Linda).
Crown Princess Marie is a place to vent your frustrations about GWoP. There is no higher purpose. There is no mission statement. That's what its there for and thats why I use it for. Guess what? I'm not alone. There are over 41,000 hits on that page and I've only post about 6 times, give or take.
Since your definition of sanity is shakey at best, I will not take offense in you saying my comments are not "sane" (if that is even an English Language word). The only thing I'm concerned about is this:
As for me, and the other people I have communicated with, NOMOREDRAMA is full of DRAMA.
Hmmm...Why are my posts so threatening to you that you need to "communicate" with others about them? Makes me wonder....
P.S. Regarding your comment When I have read your posts at GWoP it is a completely different tone. You write with respect.
Thanks for acknowledging this...makes me wonder why 90% of my posts are rejcted. And to you this is a problem? Approaching someone you disagree with in a respectful tone? Maybe that's why you're all so well liked.
Anon 12:02. That post can be found in the same thread where BK posted her "email."
KDR said...
BK,
What a horrendously horrendous e-mail!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't think anyone is surprised, do you? What a coward. Oh, and JON (since you are obviously reading this even though you say you don't care), I would be very prepared for some tough Q & A at your next gig. I think plenty of non-supporters are going to be in the audience. How are you going to handle a room full of non Gosselin worshippers?
I can't remember exactly what topic it was under.
I would say from some of the posts you have penned, you certainly are radical. How two faced you really are.
Yes, Fiona...I'm radical...Radically against a group of individuals tearing a family down for no purpose whatsoever!
Yep, that's radical, baby!
"I would be very prepared for some tough Q & A at your next gig. think plenty of non-supporters are going to be in the audience. How are you going to handle a room full of non Gosselin worshippers?"
How do we know that GWOP is the organizer of this action? Is it in one of the blog posts? Or a comment from one of the admins? There are so many posts on that blog, and some of them have hundreds of comments, it's hard to know where to look. I checked the buttons posted on the side of the main page and didn't find any announcements about it. Anyone know?
Anon 3:29
I never said GWoP as a site or the Admin was organizing the "attack" for lack of a better word. I merely said
I also know that it may not be pretty because some members [emphasis added]of GWoP are planning to crash the party.
Yes, as I said, it was a blog post. And, as I've also already said, it was posted under the same topic that BK posted her supposed hate email (which everyone on the site assumed was from Jon).
Ok Anon 3:29...
Because I'm bored I went to GWoP to find the specific blog that comment was posted under. It was posted under "Recap of Heading South." See for yourself...
I have never read anyone over at GWoP do that to anyone over here. I am really not intending to be rude, but it is almost comical and in poor taste.
It's been pointed out above, but bears repeating, that it's ridiculous to get worked up about the "meanness" shown on this blog toward GWoPpers when it is not anything compared to the vitriol spewed against the Gosselins on GWoP.
This is not TWoP, where it's okay to say the ugliest things imaginable about someone as long as they're on TV, but you can't say a peep about other posters or their opinions. Those were TWoP rules, but they don't apply on this blog, and as far as I can tell, they don't apply on GWoP either.
I literally could not care less if I tried about people at GWoP making fun of or otherwise denigrating this blog or the people who post here. I'm pretty sure that I'm in the right here, so they can say what they want. I know there are rational posters there, though as I've said before I can't imagine most of them last long. The rest are a seething mass comprised of mean, crazy, overinvested and delusional.
"I never said GWoP as a site or the Admin was organizing the "attack" for lack of a better word."
Thanks for your response. I read "some members of GWoP" and thought there had been a more specific discussion over there about planning to attend a speaking engagement, encouraged by someone representing GWOP ("member"). But I see that it's just a reader's comment in the post you mentioned.
Anon 8:30,
I see it's just a semantics issue. I guess I consider a member to be someone who regularly posts on the site. For example, Fiona is not Admin but she is a "member." I guess my definition of member is the dictionary.com definion whereby a member is a person who is "part of a society, party, community, taxon or other body"
I'm kind of uncomfortable with the seeming (I'm sorry if Im reading you wrong) dismissal of the situation as "just a reader's comment." It doesn't have to be posted by admin to have an impact and fuel the fire (uh, just look at the BK email farce). It sounds by this posters statements that there will be "plenty" or "readers" there with for the sole purpose of making a scene. You can qualify it all you want and say "well GWoP doesn't sanction this." If they didn't, then they would allow the post to get through in the first place. Lord knows, they are well aware of how to "reject" a post.
I am curious, as I read on both GWoP and here (and also CafeMom): does reading or posting at one of those other sites make one a "member"? I don't subscribe to GWoP, but if I did, would I be considered a member? Just askin.
I don't really like the concept of members. Maybe "frequent flyers" is better for blogs like this. Unless you actually have to register to participate on the site. I guess you would be called a member.
"It sounds by this posters statements that there will be "plenty" or "readers" there with for the sole purpose of making a scene."
I think we're just having an honest disagreement about how we choose to interpret one poster's comment.
"You can qualify it all you want and say "well GWoP doesn't sanction this." "
That's not what I said. I thought I had missed a published call to action by GWOP for its readers to attend speaking engagements. As you pointed out, there was one comment in one of the posts that mentions the possibility (not the certainty) of what the poster called "non-Gosselin" supportors attending a speaking engagement. I choose not to read anything more into that person's comment, but others can make their own choice about what it does or doesn't mean.
Like I said, it's semantics....when I originally used the term "member" I was referring to someone who regularly reads and/or posts.
I guess I didn't think it was that big of a deal...
Well, Anon,
All I can say at this point is I'll let you know what happens when I go there. Maybe the poster was just talking smack...only way to know for sure is for the event to happen.
"I guess I didn't think it was that big of a deal..."
That's where we do agree!
Thanks for letting us know what happens when you go there.
Ok Anon 3:29...
Because I'm bored I went to GWoP to find the specific blog that comment was posted under. It was posted under "Recap of Heading South." See for yourself...
August 22, 2008 8:47 PM
I should say so. It is laughable how much you are on this thing!!!!!
I can imagine what kind of person you are. Not a good visual. You are mean. You try to impress the sheep over here and run the show. get out much????? HEE HEE
It's laughable to me that, since you can't effectively debate me, you resort to ridiculous insults, all the while posting "anonymously."
It's also laughable to me that you're "on this thing" talking to me about how much time I'm "on this thing." You have time to not only read all of my comments, but respond to them and then "communicate" with other people about them. But, I'm the one with too much time on my hands?
I know it's "impressive" to you (since you spend so much time at GWoP) when someone can make an intelligent and rational argument but I can assure you that no one here is all that impressed. It happens a lot over here and we're used to it.
So, just keep on trying to imagine the kind of person I am. You've already provided a "visual" for everyone here of who you are...and it's not pretty.
Gosh, some people are easily amused.
On the issue of whether the blog as a whole is responsible for posters' comments - in a larger sense, no, I don't think it's fair to say that poster x at GWoP said something, so obviously that is the GWoP position. But when certain sentiments get posted over and over and over, and there is no dissention - no one says, "wow, I think that's a little harsh" or "I disagree, and here is why", then it's natural to assume a tacit approval.
I know that speaking for myself, if the majority of posts on this blog (not the ones from GWoPpers who came over, but pro-Gosselin or anti-GWoP posts) were repugnant to me, if they stated and repeated opinions I disagreed with, I would post comments to that effect. And at a certain point, I would probably decide that this blog wasn't the place for me and would not post anymore.
All of this is to say that while the posts at GWoP (about crashing a Gosselin speech and harassing J&K) may not have been generated by the mods, or approved in any official way, the absence of any disapproval, coupled with the continual and constant barrage of vitriol directed at J&K...well, none of that would lead a reasonable person to conclude that the moderators or the majority of posters disagree with the action. Maybe that strikes some as unfair, but it's the reality of human nature - you are judged by the company you keep. I, for one, would not want to be lumped in with the ugly hatefulness of the average GWoP posters.
"This is not TWoP, where it's okay to say the ugliest things imaginable about someone as long as they're on TV, but you can't say a peep about other posters or their opinions."
I've posted on TWoP for several years, and while I don't agree with every decision they make about running that site, I do appreciate the "boards on boards" rule. However, that doesn't mean you can't disagree with other posters' opinions. I've done it many times, and have had my opinions challenged as well, but I can live with that because TWoP doesn't allow the discussion to disintegrate into a verbal beat-down of name calling and insults toward other posters.
I joined TWoP understanding that its purpose is to allow viewers to talk about the shows they cover (without pity!), not about other posters whose opinions you don't like. Over the years there have been many times when I've disliked another poster's opinion, for any number of reasons, as I'm sure others thought the same about mine. But in general I think their policy is a good one and prevents disgruntled posters (or trolls) from derailing the discussion with personal attacks on other posters.
Anon 9:56 a.m., I think the "boards on boards" stuff becomes problematic when opinions are expressed as vociferously as they were on the TWoP J&K thread. I think that was the reason the thread was shut down - not really because of "trolls" on either side, but because when you had anti-Gosselin folks who were so extreme in their views, the minute you added a different viewpoint, the thread became very tense. The anti-Gosselin posters could not believe that anyone disagreed with them, because they were so used to their echo chamber. I remember another poster expressing amazement when I stated the seemingly uncontroversial opinion that Kate loved her kids.
I understand the thinking behind "talk about the show, not about other posters", but I don't think it works when posters have such extreme, angry opinions about a television show. And it strikes me as hypocritical for people to say that people on this blog are "mean" to the posters at GWoP, when the GWoP posters are joking about Kate being killed and calling 4-year-olds "oafish", among other things.
The oafish comment was removed as soon as it got to the proper person's attention. I haven't seen a post joking about Kate being killed. Post the reference and I'm sure it will be handled. If you're talking about "giving them enough rope," that isn't a joke about Kate being killed. It's a common expression.
Anonymous said...
"I would have dragged her into that water and forced her head into the sand for the crabs to eat."
comment of the week!?!LOL
This, my friend, is a far cry from "Give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves"
Thank you. Unfortunately keeping up with the blog is more than a full-time job and I have a real job and family.
The oafish comment was removed as soon as the mods got flak for it. Both blog entries and posts are read and moderated at GWoP, so somehow claiming that inappropriate things are just slipping through doesn't wash. These things get through because at least some of the mods are okay with a 4-year-old being called oafish or people joking about Kate being killed. It's only when they are called on it that the comments are redacted. To use a popular GWoP phrase, it's nothing but damage control - it's clear that the opinion is okay, but is only removed once the mods realize how bad it makes them look.
"I thought I had missed a published call to action by GWOP for its readers to attend speaking engagements. As you pointed out, there was one comment in one of the posts that mentions the possibility (not the certainty) of what the poster called "non-Gosselin" supportors attending a speaking engagement. I choose not to read anything more into that person's comment, but others can make their own choice about what it does or doesn't mean."
Uh, actually you did. You can find this "call to action" in the "How you can help" button to the right on the home page of Gwop.
"While you are at it show up at the church conventions that Jon & Kate speak at and inquire of them why they have no issues on how their children are being exploited."
It goes on to give the dates and locations of all of the Gosselin's upcoming speaking engagements.
It does say that it was submitted as a comment by an anonymous poster, but being that Serena posted it in that section of gwop, at least one mod is supporting it, and the fact that it hasn't been removed tells me that they all do.
Thank you. Unfortunately keeping up with the blog is more than a full-time job and I have a real job and family.
And when the truth slaps you in the face, you go with the old faithful "I have a life" defense.
I guess what Julie said is true. "Truth Breeds Hatred"
LOL. Truth is an absolute defense in this case. Would you be willing to sit at the laptop moderating hundreds of comments a day? Well maybe you are, but I'm not.
Anon, we all have lives,jobs, hobbies, families, friends....it's not impossible for one to have a life and actually know what one is talking about before posting in a condescending manner...
If you're talking about "giving them enough rope," that isn't a joke about Kate being killed. It's a common expression.
As if we needed that clarification. But then again, aren't we all tied of up in a room somewhere chained to a laptop, unemployed and spending all of our welfare money on keeping this daggon internet connection open so we can still "git to bloggin." We di'nt no dat wuz a comun esspression. Thanks for educating us.
I wasn't rude to you at first but then you had to throw in your "Thank you but I have a life comment." No sarcasm there, right?
If you didn't know it was there, admit it and move on...save the jabs and feeble attempts to make yourself look good. You're job and family obviously doesn't stop you from coming here and posting comments which means that there is at least some portion of your day spent on the internet.
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