Submitted for publication by JJ.
I have been following this blog for a few weeks now. A friend told me about it and after looking at the GWOP site I found it a welcome change. I have watched the show and feel that it is pretty much like any other Reality Show: a little slot of time where I get to peek into the lives of someone else and get a glimpse (not the real picture) of what their lives are about. Jon and Kate Plus 8 is enjoyable because the kids are so cute. I admire anyone who can handle eight kids and not want to jump off a building at the end of the day! I don’t feel that it is up to me to worry about the relationship between Jon and Kate because I know, “it’s a Reality Show” and there are camera crews in the house! Who knows, except their closest friends and family what they are really like! Just like Flipping Out or The Lohans, or Tori and Dean, if there wasn’t drama, no one would watch!
What I don’t get is why the viewers are so passionate about Jon and Kate Plus 8! On this blog I have read posts where the writers are almost coming to blows with those who feel the opposite opinion about the show. Name calling, insults, putdowns, accusations all about a Reality Show! This makes no sense to me! The passion these readers feel is unbelievable to me. I know most of the viewers are women and from the posts that I have read, educated ,concerned, caring women. I wish I could harness that passion and concern for causes that would unite us.
I live in Southern California. Do you know that in November California will be the highest taxed state in the Country? I am passionate about the fact that I may not be able to retire here because I can’t afford it! I am passionate about the fact that my 22 year old son will not be able to buy a house here. I am passionate about the fact that I am in the Insurance business and talk to people every day, middle income people, who do not have Health Insurance for their children. I am passionate about the fact that our kids do not know how to use the library or an encyclopedia or write an original term paper or spell correctly because they are on the computer or texting on their phone all day. I am passionate about the fact that our children have no “real heroes” anymore because they are impressed by athletes and rappers because they drive cars whose monthly note is more than most people’s mortgage.
What I wish is that I could harness all the passion from readers on both sides of the GWOP blogs and get them involved in something that truly affects the lives of their own families, not a Reality Tv family. The Gosselins are set. They will have all the money they need to take care of their family in a style they would never have dreamed of. They no longer have the worries and concerns that we do and that’s the “reality”.
125 comments:
Can we not have passion for several things at one time? Many of us do have passion for things you mentioned but still enjoy discussing these issues.
I understand where you are coming from, but I'm passionate about children. I have an elementary education degree although I've been a SAHM for awhile for my 3 children. I agree that some people are nitpicking every single thing about the show, but my concern lies in the fact the younger children are the breadwinners for the family. Exploiting these young children for million dollar homes is not right. I am passionate about that.
Also, I wrongly assumed that since the show is on THE LEARNING CHANNEL, that it wouldn't be like other reality shows that are on MTV, etc... where one would completely expect the drama. I don't need to learn how to use my children to make big bucks. I did enjoy the early shows where the family seemed a lot more real. J&K folding laundry together after the kids were in bed. Shopping trips on a budget. Most of us can appreciate that.
Im curious why the people who are so concerned about the Gosselins being exploited do not care one bit about the poor Roloff kids or Rev Runs kids. Why didnt anyone speak up for the Hogan kids, or the Osbourne kids. Why all the outrage for the Gosselins if its all about exploited kids? Everything claimed about the Gosselins can be claimed ten fold about the Roloffs especially.
Irresponsible father - check
Mean wife - check
Free trips - check
Big McMansion - check
Almost dead kid - check
Where is the Roloffs without Pity site?
Don't forget the Harris Sextuplets. Figure 8 started airing a show about them last week. In fact, it's on tonight (Discovery Health).
Oh, by the way, Diamond Harris doesn't put her 5 year olds in booster seats and straps three to a seatbelt, cramming them all in a pick-up truck. Where's the outrage, there? Or are you going to wait until Figure 8 gets footage of her slamming on the breaks and the kid's heads hitting the windshield?
"Passion" for children's rights are pretty selective, it seems, and don't apply to everyone. Just families who's Mom rubs people the wrong way, I guess.
Damn straight, mcb.
I have been pointing that out forever. When the news broke about the Harris kids gwop went wild about how they would put J+K to shame because they are such nice people?
Huh?
I thought all the bs over there was supposed to be about the kids...Obviously on planet GWOP it's okay to "exploit" your kids as long as you kiss public ass while you do it.
Just look at how well the Osbourne and Hogan kids turned out. Drugs and jail. In fact, alot of children who have been on tv have turned out to have serious problems - some ending very tragically. Someone should have advocated for them!
"Just families who's Mom rubs people the wrong way, I guess.
I agree. I really think this is behind at least 90-95% of the hysteria that we see in relation to the Gosselin kids.
Mrsref, Just my opinion, but I think comparing the Osbourne/Hogan families to the Roloff/Harris/Gosselin families is kind of apples and oranges. The Osbournes, for example, led such very different lives way before their show ever aired. In the case of the Osbournes, also, I think some of their drug problems can be possibly traced to genetics in that their father has battled addiction for years. I also think the kids probably kept company with a particular crowd where drug use was pretty prevalent. The Hogans - ew - I can't even discuss them without feeling slimy all over.
I am not saying there will be no impact whatsoever to the Gosselin children in having been on a reality show. I don't think any of us have a crystal ball and can say what will happen. I just don't think they need to be advocated for in the manner you seem to suggest.
I don't remember Sharon Osbourne, Amy Roloff or Rev Run jetting off to speaking engagements to beg money from unsuspecting fans and churchgoers. Yes, Matt and Amy Roloff do give inspirational talks but they ARE an inspiration. They have overcome physical limitations to give their family the best life they can. Besides, these women do not compare to the bitch that Kate is.
mcb said:
"Passion" for children's rights are pretty selective, it seems, and don't apply to everyone. Just families who's Mom rubs people the wrong way, I guess.
"nail on head" here...perfectly illustrated!
I don't remember Sharon Osbourne, Amy Roloff or Rev Run jetting off to speaking engagements to beg money from unsuspecting fans and churchgoers.
I'm not sure what this has to do with advocating for the children? Are you saying the Gosselin kids are going to end up on drugs because their parents give talks at churches and supposedly accept contributions?
Thank you for proving my point. It doesnt matter that the Roloff kids live in a garbage dump and that their father blows money like water, leaving the entire family to have to live in 2 rooms. The kids are rude and lazy. Yep 2 different standards on "child exploitation" because one mother isnt as "bitchy" as the other. That point is very debateable anyway, Ive seen Amy be downright nasty.
Besides, these women do not compare to the bitch that Kate is.
Guinevere said:
"I'm not sure what this has to do with advocating for the children? Are you saying the Gosselin kids are going to end up on drugs because their parents give talks at churches and supposedly accept contributions?"
What I meant by my statement is that In addition to exploiting their children for money on television, the Gosselins take it further by begging at speaking engagements. Something these other families did not or do not do. Who said anything about the kids going on drugs, you have a way of picking and choosing what you want from these comments.
Really, how much time do you spend on this site? I get it, you don't see anything wrong with what the Gosselins are doing, I do. That's it, but you insist on picking things apart....oh I know, I should go back to GWOP....sorry don't have enough time to spend on websites devoted to a tv family all day long.
I've not watched all the shows in mention as they are likely on channels that I don't or rarely watch. I have only watched a handful of Little People Big World epi's, so I can't comment much about that.
Why people are in a tizzy about child exploitation is in large part due to the age of the children. Most of the other children mentioned are mostly teenage children and they have a bit of an understanding about what is going on and can speak up for themselves. Most teenagers I know can and do.
Also, the Harris family (I think that's who it is) has been shown in 1 epi?? I don't think anyone anywhere would complain much at all about the Gosselins if they had kept it to a much less number of shows. Now it's a working job for the family with filming happening 'almost year round' several days each week.
Isn't that like the kettle calling the pot black?
I agree with you JJ. I think most people just get so caught up in wanting to be right, and some just love to argue.
For a while I felt a little worried for the kids, what the effects of growing up on a weekly reality show would be. But I decided it's not for me to worry about, and I also don't worry about what they are saying or doing on GWOP.
So your claim is that the Roloffs do not get paid for their speeches? Are you 100% sure of that?
What I meant by my statement is that In addition to exploiting their children for money on television, the Gosselins take it further by begging at speaking engagements.
What I meant by my statement is that In addition to exploiting their children for money on television, the Gosselins take it further by begging at speaking engagements. Something these other families did not or do not do.
...and your point is?
Who said anything about the kids going on drugs
Mrsref did.
Really, how much time do you spend on this site?
Lately? Between 15-45 minutes a day, maybe. Why do you ask?
I get it, you don't see anything wrong with what the Gosselins are doing, I do. That's it, but you insist on picking things apart
You call it "picking things apart"; I call it "responding to other posts". It's actually sort of the point of having a comments feature. Maybe you'd be happier at some place where you don't have to deal with people who don't think exactly as you do?
sorry don't have enough time to spend on websites devoted to a tv family all day long.
Well, obviously not.
Anon 2:29 p.m. said
"....sorry don't have enough time to spend on websites devoted to a tv family all day long."
But you DO have enough time to come here and repeat the same 'talking points' that we have all already heard 6,000 times.
"What I wish is that I could harness all the passion from readers on both sides of the GWOP blogs and get them involved in something that truly affects the lives of their own families, not a Reality Tv family. The Gosselins are set. They will have all the money they need to take care of their family in a style they would never have dreamed of."
You make excellent points. I can't disagree with anything you said. I think for me and some others, this is just a fun place to come and talk about a show we all really like.
The issues you are addressing, such as lack of affortable health care, can seem overwhelming to those of us who already lead pretty busy lives (despite what the poster said above). I am not sure where to dig in and start helping on that one or other important issues other than to do my best to make educated decisions regarding the candidates I vote for and also give money (when I can) and time (when I can) to candidates and causes I think will benefit my family and community.
And while it may seem kind of silly, I don't make apologies for defending Kate when I smell misogyny or defending J&K when I see the nastiness and hypocrisy of the attacks directed at them. And I assure you, this is coming from someone who acknowledges their flaws and does not totally discount the possible effects of the cameras on their kids.
For some of us it's probably because it's easier to talk about TV shows than try to change the political landscape of California or the condition of our state's educational system or whatever.
I'm really tending to put the Roloffs and the Gosselins in the same basket these days. I think the Duggars are packing up to join them. They are supporting their families by putting their kids' lives on TV. They must think it's a reasonable trade-off. I have fears that it isn't. Am I so up in arms about that I need to contact anyone? I wouldn't even know where to start. What I do is not watch the episodes until at least 24 hours later since I signed an agreement that my DVR log can be accumulated and sent to Neilen. Yeah, they'll get the second tier counting but at least it isn't same day. If I watch a rerun it isn't on the DVR TV. Small thing I know.
I think this is a very well-written post with many good points. One thing that puzzles me is that I don't understand how "passion" (whether positive or negative) for J&K+8 is harnessed. History has shown that, unfortunately, it often takes tragedy to spur change. (Example: Amber Alerts and the various (insert child's name here) laws that were created after the murder of said child.) Therefore, in 10 years if the Gosselin children are "messed up", only then will someone say "We need laws so this doesn't happen again." As they say, hindsight is 20/20. Sadly, our society supports restoration after the fact rather than prevention beforehand.
(Note: I am not trying to posit an opinion on the issue of whether the Gosselin children are exploited or not. I just feel that the debate over that issue, presently, is a moot point (not that it shouldn't be discussed), because perceptions over whether they are exploited or not will only be positively rendered in the future.)
Oh please-- get a hobby!
Oh please-- get a hobby!
I hear some people enjoy stalking strangers. You mean a hobby like that?
Oooohh man, where do I start:
In fact, alot of children who have been on tv have turned out to have serious problems - some ending very tragically. Someone should have advocated for them!
What is done on GWOP or other anti-Gosselin sites is a far cry from advocacy. Yes, at one point they got on a "How you can help" kick (probably because they got so many comments (none that they actually approved) challenging them on this point. But really, what do they do to besides stage attacks on the parents and even the children. That's not advocacy. Thats entertainment under the guise of advocacy and concern.
Yes, Matt and Amy Roloff do give inspirational talks but they ARE an inspiration.
Really? Because I don't think that Matt Roloff's conduct is anything that I would call inspirational. In fact, he is much like Kate. Ever see him "supervise" his construction. He makes his own father do grunt work while making empty promises to him about how things are going to change. Yeah, thats really inspiring! But then again, he's a man. So its ok for him to be like that but God forbid a woman take control (and no, I'm not a big Kate fan but I'm just saying). Oh and don't even get me started on the free trips that they go on as well....
Really, how much time do you spend on this site?
Less time than it takes for Dew to write the novel, eh, recap of the week complete with irrelevant and ridiculous commentary and probably less time than Serena spends arguing the same point over and over (while rejecting posts that make her arguments look weak so it seems like the GWoP wins the debate...soooo annoyed about that).
you don't see anything wrong with what the Gosselins are doing, I do. That's it, but you insist on picking things apart
Uhhhh, have you BEEN to GWoP? Really...I cannot even contain my laughter....heres a typical post over there.... "Mady looked away from the camera for two seconds. This proves that she is being psychologically damaged by her parent's behavior" I can't even believe that someone would have the nerve to accuse this site of picking things apart when they come from over there.
and finally (I know, I'm getting windy)
What I wish is that I could harness all the passion from readers on both sides of the GWOP blogs and get them involved in something that truly affects the lives of their own families
Please don't assume that all of us spend most of our time blogging on the internet about a TV show. I literally work 60+ hours a week with children who have emotional/behavioral disorders and their families. I see the GROSSEST of abuse and can give you the true definition of exploitation. Literally, almost every waking moment of mine is spent with children...treating them, advocating for them, caring about them and giving them a voice. Can you say that?
And that leads me to why this bothers me...because of people making ridiculous, unfair accusations about people they haven't met when real trauma is occurring every day. My passion is not about the show but about child protection and when someone makes wild accusations that are unfounded it takes the focus away from children who actually need the attention.
JJ -
I've thought about your post all day. I still scratch my head at why or how Kate Gosselin became the latest Omirosa on the blogosphere.
The people on the Gwopper sight bug me because of their hypocrisy and their potential for inciting violence.
Describing that does not seem like a waste of time.
The Duggars horrify me. People like to talk about how Kate doesnt raise her kids, well how about Michelle? Each of the older kids are responsible for the care of a younger sibling. How is that right? Why no outcry about the fact that the Duggar kids are essentially slave labor? They built that house, they cook, and clean, they raise their siblings. Bob and Michelle are too busy making more babies.
I think the Duggars are packing up to join them.
Anya: I don't know what manner you are suggesting I advocate for the kids. I just wish the show would stop. I am not someone who is calling for boycotts, calling CPS, etc, I was just responding to someone who asked where the outrage was about the Hogans, Osbournes etc. And Gueniviere, I NEVER said the Gosselins kids were going to be on drugs!!!!!!!! I said that is where the Hogans, Osbournes, Olsens, etc. ended up. The difference I see is that the Hogan and Osbourne kids are living off the fame of their parents. The Gosselin parents are living off the fame and cuteness of their kids. If it is was J&K show, who would watch.
I see is that the Hogan and Osbourne kids are living off the fame of their parents. The Gosselin parents are living off the fame and cuteness of their kids.
The Hogans and Osbournes are kids who never had limits or boundaries placed on them. There was no discipline in these homes and anything the kids did was ok.
The Gosselins do discipline their children (much to the dismay of GWoP...or I should say delight because no matter what the parents do, it will be termed as abuse).
Ms Ref, ending this television show is not going to save the lives of any children, not even the Gosselins (not that I'm saying they need saving). If Kate is such a horrible parent, it stands to reason that she would be this way with or without cameras (for the record, I think the Gosselins do a pretty good job, but like all of us are imperfect).
The crazies at GWoP want the show canceled because, well, who knows. They are unstable, ridiculous people who think that attacking and belittling people is righteous and justified. Be careful who you get your information from.
The Gosselin children are minors. Minors who are in 50+ episodes of a television show per year.
Children are protected by law when they appear in scripted television shows, i.e. compensation/protection of assets, hours per day allowed to work, conditions of filming, etc.
The Gosselin children have no such protection, presumably because reality television is a relatively new phenomenon and no reality show has ever featured children to this extent. Or to put it another way - a law hasn't been necessary until now.
As an attorney and a mom of 4 young children, I worry for those children. That they will not reap any financial benefit as they would if this show were scripted. That their parents will keep it all. Also that the hours and conditions that they work are not in their best interest.
And until the law is changed to protect children in reality series, I think it is incumbent upon *society* to demand some deeper scrutiny of this particular show. Neither the parents nor the production company or TLC appear to be doing that.
stephanie,
Is there not a better way to do this?
MCB mentioned that because Kate rubs some of us the wrong way is why we feel the way we do about the show. YOU BET!!! She rubs me the wrong way in the way she treats her husband, her friends and family. Yes, it is her bitchiness along with her sense of entitlement that makes her stand out in a negative manner. In the beginning, she captured our hearts while trying to shop for her large family on a small budget, we fell in love with her children and felt for her husband that was away from home 10 hours a day. This is the Kate Gosselin we wanted to watch. But no more. She's changed right before our eyes, as the children's grow so do her expectations. You're damn right that she rubs me the wrong way. Absolutely!
Another thing that I don't understand, why don't they update their website? They have used their website in recent weeks to send messages to their fans but nothing is updated. According to their website, Kate is still pregnant on bed rest in the hospital. The children do not have college funds. If they want the support of their adoring fans by sending them messages, why can't they update simple facts?
Anya says we dont have a crystal ball to see what happens. EXACTLY!!! Why not err on the side of safety and send in a few experts and let them be the judge. Let them decide if the filming is too much for the children. If their opinion is that there is nothing wrong, so be it. You would think Jon and Kate Gosselin, Figure 8 and TLC would welcome this type of involvement.
To anonymous who asked me if there is a "better way to do this".
If you mean is there a better way than society demanding deeper scrutiny of this show - I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
Wouldn't it be great if the show/companies behind Jon and Kate Plus 8 were also the ones that advocated state legislatures to pass laws to give children in reality shows the same protections afforded to children in scripted series?
I don't see why ANYONE wouldn't want the Gosselin children to be afforded the same rights that kids on Disney Channel are given, i.e. mandatory hours off camera every day. Mandatory hours of school. Mandatory financial compensation put into trust that their parents do not have legal access to.
Why on earth would anyone be against that?
In the beginning, she captured our hearts while trying to shop for her large family on a small budget, we fell in love with her children and felt for her husband that was away from home 10 hours a day. This is the Kate Gosselin we wanted to watch. But no more.
Who, may I ask, is "we?" I wonder because it seems like GWoPpers and other anti-Gosselin folks often speak in plural rather than singular, and I can't figure out if they are talking about the entire viewing audience, or just themselves and the people that they know think like they do. A poster above implies that no one would watch a show just about J&K, and I don't agree. I've seen it said many times that "we" are not interested in seeing J&K, we just want to see the kids, that "we" are beginning to catch on/see the truth/question the Gosselins/whatever. I guess I just don't understand some peoples' need to imply that they are speaking for everyone (or for a group), when in fact they are only speaking for themselves. It strikes me as a conscious or unconscious rhetorical tactic meant to frame the discussion the way the poster wants it framed and to shut down disagreement.
Speaking for myself, I don't require Kate to be poor and scrimping for every dime, or Jon to be working himself to death, in order to enjoy the show.
Stephanie, on general principle I don't object to legislation protecting children on reality shows, limiting their hours and making sure they get some of the proceeds from the show. Though I would point out that they are being supported by the proceeds right now, and bring up again the child who works on their parents' farm as an example. I don't think I've seen that tackled by the oppositon - should children who are "forced" to work on the family farm (and thus help support the family) be protected by legislation limiting their work hours and setting aside part of the proceeds in trust for them? How about kids who are given an excessive number of chores, such as the Duggar children are apparently (I don't watch that show) given? I'm not talking about the fact that they are on TV, but just the fact that they are being made to "work" - should they be compensated and protected? What is the difference?
I just think it's a slippery slope to get state agencies involved in such things, and I don't see it as coming from a place of general concern for such children, but rather a specific dislike for the Gosselins and a desire to hurt and undermine them.
Well, that should be the death knell for the series. It is the everyman/everywoman facade that keeps people interested in the family.
I think you underestimate the stupidity of their fans.
Guinevere, I think that quote was especially for you.
Stephanie, the problem is that it would be fine if the posters at GWoP did just what you mentioned. But we all know, that's not the case. They're NOT just advocating for the children. They're harassing and stalking the family, giving out private information of relatives not even on the show, seeking out disgruntled sisters and sisters of sister-in-laws of the Gosselin family to get material to gossip about on their blog, driving by their home with cameras, calling, e-mailing and harassing anyone associated with the family, bombarding newspapers and magazines when they write articles not critical enough for their tastes. It's just beyond bizarre.
And why don't the Gosselin's update their web site? Take a look at today's new blog posting and see what people who defend the Gosselins go through. Why should they update anything if they're going to be hacked and harassed by some extremely damaged individuals?
Nomoredrama: I don't think the Gosselin kids need saving. I do however think that they would have a more relaxed mother if the cameras and crew were not in their home and if her life was truly her own. She has complained on screen that the lights bother her, the crew makes her house too crowded and on and on. On at least one occasion, the kids were just shuffled off to the basement to alieviate the situation. If Kate and/or Jon were having a bad day, they would not have to be subjected to hours of filming that obviously exacerbate an already stressed out parent. Do you not think J&K just add to their own stress level?
King Arthur "Well, that should be the death knell for the series. It is the everyman/everywoman facade that keeps people interested in the family.
I think you underestimate the stupidity of their fans."
I read that post on GWOP, too. I think they OVERestimate the relevancy and importance of their commentary.
MCB mentioned that because Kate rubs some of us the wrong way is why we feel the way we do about the show. YOU BET!!!
Normal people tend to change the channel when this phenomenon occurs. That's why God created cable with hundreds of channels so that when a show or a person starring on the show rubs you the wrong way, you can CHANGE THE CHANNEL.
Oh, and Stephanie, my apologies earlier. You didn't ask about the website being updated. The "brave" soul who condones stalking and harassing Kate because she just doesn't like her, (and who posted as "anonymous," of course) did.
To be fair, people who "support" (and I use that term loosely) the Gosselins sometimes use "we" and "us" too. I think people speaking in the plural form is just a personal thing, not an indication of a certain opinion.
I am a lurker and occasional poster on this board. This board claims to be balanced, but I really do not see this. This board loves to call the GWOP posters "crazy" and "stalkers". I have seen more of that here than fans being called "sheeple" on GWOP.
No offense, but if you want to call out Jodi's sister or the other "insiders" for giving out information about the Gosselins, then apply the same criticism for "Former Gwop Fan". I akin her rantings to a witch who has been banned by her coven.
This "secret" board is just that secret - private. The information she speaks of is not on the public GWOP board. For her to divulge what is posted there is just like the insiders posting what they know.
I don't know if this secret board exists, even if it is run by the same mods that run GWOP - obviously they know to maintain a separation between the two. Whatever is discussed on the "secret" board, the members are comfortable with it, I am not saying they are right, but that's the whole point of having a private board.
If the supposed personal information discussed on the secret board were posted here - obviously some people would be offended because they are not comfortable with that type of information. That is different.
Personally, I like the show. I think the kids are cute and what they say is funny. The "wild horses" episode had one scene where Aaden gets up from his nap with a big smile on his face goes to the back of the television to put on his glasses and for some reason, that was very endearing to me. It felt real. But the show has gotten so far from that. It is not a show about a family trying to raise 2 set of multiples.
I (I am speaking for myself), cannot relate to the tummy tucks, the hair plugs, the Gymboree fashion show, vacations, etc.
I am not a hater or jealous, I just think, especially in today's economy, can anyone relate?
Maybe what offends me is the work ethic I was raised in.
This family has been blessed with so many things, yet I don't see the willingness to give back, I just see the entitlement of wanting more and wondering when it will stop.
I read both boards and I do not feel the fervent nature on GWOP that I do here. I previously commented and was told that I was making "excuses" and "rationalizing". Well, the same can be said for Guinevere's posts.
Not that she doesn't have the right to feel that way. But I am not looking for that on a board that claims to be balanced.
I have yet to see the addressess, private information, etc. displayed on GWOP.
Now, if there is a secret message board where this information is displayed, then please make the distinction.
Finn,
Balanced was intended to mean that everyone gets their say. That I just don't post opinions that are the same as mine. A discussion. I try to post almost all comments unless they reveal something that they shouldn't or are abusive. I will post an article with an opinion that differs from my own. That is what balanced means to me. Now you know that I can not determine who posts here and what they say.
Mea Culp, Nina.
I read both boards and I do not feel the fervent nature on GWOP that I do here. I previously commented and was told that I was making "excuses" and "rationalizing". Well, the same can be said for Guinevere's posts.
Can you give me an example? I think it's natural to rationalize one's opinion at least a bit, but I don't think I'm excessively guilty of it.
To be fair, in regards to this board being "balanced", that was the blog owner's intent, but it's really only something that can be accomplished if people submit blog entries and comments that provide balance. Unlike the GWoP board, which as far as I know does not claim to be balanced, where opposing opinions are simply more often than not just not posted.
I obviously don't agree that this site is more fervent in nature than GWoP. I am not aware of anyone here tracking down people IRL, having face to face meetings with disgruntled relatives of inlaws of the Gosselins, or contacting any organization (IRS, CPS, churches that the Gosselins speak at, the Washington Post, the National Enquirer, vendors who advertise, what have you) and haranguing them. Those things are a better indicator of fervency to me, because they go beyond simply posting on this blog (which is all that I do). GWoP claims to be devoted to advocacy, which suggests a certain degree of action, whereas I think this site is pretty much limited to discussions and opinions.
For the record, because I feel like I'm starting to be held up as a poster child for anti-GWoP/pro-Gosselin sentiment: I don't feel that fervently about the show or the other site. Probably 80% of the time my posts are not coming from an emotional place. Occasionally, I get snippy in response to someone else's snippiness, but I swear I'm not over here making little Serena and Fiona and Eeyore dolls and sticking pins in them. I don't care *that* much.
Comment:
In the beginning, she captured our hearts while trying to shop for her large family on a small budget, we fell in love with her children and felt for her husband that was away from home 10 hours a day. This is the Kate Gosselin we wanted to watch. But no more.
Your Reply:
Who, may I ask, is "we?" I wonder because it seems like GWoPpers and other anti-Gosselin folks often speak in plural rather than singular, and I can't figure out if they are talking about the entire viewing audience, or just themselves and the people that they know think like they do. A poster above implies that no one would watch a show just about J&K, and I don't agree.
Guinevere,
By fervent, I am referring to your
reply to this comment (and your stance on other topics). Honestly, the original comment was valid thought and your reply alludes to "don't speak for me" - someone earlier in the thread said pro-Gosselin posters do the same thing (speak in plural).
I don't know if this is even about Jon and Kate anymore. Both sides have such a fierce stance to be "right".
Just a question - would you watch the show no matter what?
For me, even though I don't have multiples, I know that that many children is expensive and stressful for the average joe.
I can see why people would send money or toilet paper or what not to help them out.
If you add on the story of "we resorted to looking in our couch for spare change to pay our mortgage." then I would think there would be a lot of people out of the kindness of their hearts would say - I am going to forgo my daily Starbucks to help you out and sadly even those who really can't afford to have as well.
Well, whether or not you or others believe this to be true. None of that was true. Jon and Kate Gosselin were never that destitute.
Now, if they had admitted this from the very beginning, then I am sure there would be some who would still watch the show and give.
But for the most part, most people do not know this.
I am not a hater nor jealous. I have to keep repeating this because it is the common reply to those who are not pro- Gosselin.
Someone said re: legislation to protect children in television: "I just think it's a slippery slope to get state agencies involved in such things, and I don't see it as coming from a place of general concern for such children, but rather a specific dislike for the Gosselins and a desire to hurt and undermine them."
I don't like or dislike the Gosselins. I am an attorney and I happen to care a great deal about children's rights because I'm also a mom. Children in this country are protected by child labor laws - this is not communist China.
We have laws regarding when, how long and under what condition children can work. Children in scripted television and movies are afforded an additional layer of protection in the form of state laws governing their treatment.
Because reality televion is a relatively new genre, and because state legislatures have yet to address the situation concerning children who work in this genre, laws must be passed to protect children working in reality television. So that they are are afforded equal protection under the law as children working in scripted media.
The Gosselin parents are gaining huge amounts of money from this venture and are clearly not operating in the children's best interest to agree to do FIFTY episodes this next season. FIFTY. With no legal protection from either the state of PA or the state of NC (where they are moving)for the children regarding working conditions/hours/compensation. None.
Who is going to demand that laws are passed to protect the children? TLC? Jon and Kate? Figure 8 Films? Oprah? I think that is why the GWoP website is not without its merits.
There must be laws to protect children and since there are currently none, the public should demand them.
And like I said - it's not about how I feel about Kate and Jon. I don't know them - they are characters on a television show as far as I'm concerned. But they made the choice to participate in that show - their children did not.
And those same children who did not choose are not being protected by the law like their counterparts on the Disney Channel, PBS, Nickelodeon, CBS, etc. And they should be.
All of the GWoP cult lingered here to spread their hate...I guess they have nothing better to do then look up Jon and Kate articles on an hourly basis....However, the picture of them is precious.
http://blogs.nypost.com/popwrap/archives/2008/08/jon_kate_hawaii.html
Anon 8:47 a.m. said:
"EXACTLY!!! Why not err on the side of safety and send in a few experts and let them be the judge. Let them decide if the filming is too much for the children. If their opinion is that there is nothing wrong, so be it. You would think Jon and Kate Gosselin, Figure 8 and TLC would welcome this type of involvement.
How do you KNOW this hasn't already occured? Because it hasn't been shown on TV or because Aunt Jodi's sister hasn't confirmed it for you???
King Arthur said....
"I think you underestimate the stupidity of their fans.
XXX, I think that quote was especially for you."
So K.A., you think resorting to name calling is an appropriate and mature response to someone who doesn't agree with your opinion regarding a reality TV show?
Juvenile and pretty pathetic.
Finn,
I would like to say that I am not a sheeple or pro Gosselin. There are probably quite a few things that we agree and disagree on. I am on the bubble on some things. What I do know is that I disagree with the method which many people are choosing to advocate for the changes that they think are necessary. I also do enjoy the show. I also think that Guinevere is getting a raw deal here. She can put her thoughts into words better than most and I think that can rub people the wrong way who have a different opinion.
Finn,
I would like to say that I am not a sheeple or pro Gosselin. There are probably quite a few things that we agree and disagree on. I am on the bubble on some things. What I do know is that I disagree with the method which many people are choosing to advocate for the changes that they think are necessary. I also do enjoy the show. I also think that Guinevere is getting a raw deal here. She can put her thoughts into words better than most and I think that can rub people the wrong way who have a different opinion.
Funny, I hear over and over again from GWoPers and others that John and Kate have no work ethic, don't have jobs....are lazy...
Yet in the same breath you say "the children are forced to work....no reprieve...this is horrendous" and on, and on...
Uh, am I missing something but if playing with one another, going on fun trips, and gettign free things is endless and grueling "work" for the children then how can you argue that the parents (who are on the same show, going here and there for speaking engagements and are responsible for the health, safety, and welfare of their children) are also not "working."
You can't have it both ways. It's either work or it isn't. Period.
Stephanie...
I think your heart is in the right place. You are well educated and you know the law.
But can you tell me this...if we were to bring this matter to court, how could you ever prove beyond a reasonable doubt that what these specific children are doing is work. We don't have ACTUAL facts about how the show is filmed. Further, there is no research (yet) that applies to children featured on reality television shows in the social service or psych community.
Much as people state that the show has no boundaries and shows every aspect of the children's life...do we ever see Mady and Cara's room? How about Jon and Kate. Are the twins filmed bathing or sleeping? No. There are boundaries set and, as the kids get older, maybe this is why there is more trips (and yes, I realize trips are more interesting then home shows).
Who is going to demand that laws are passed to protect the children? TLC? Jon and Kate? Figure 8 Films? Oprah? I think that is why the GWoP website is not without its merits.
And this is kind of where you lose me. I don't see the merit in ripping the parents apart, grossly exaggerating every parenting moment to fit their "abuse" agenda and then, to top of off, ripping on the kids in the name of an "agenda." GWoP is not in existence to advocate for these kids. They exist for their own entertainment and to see how many hits they can get on their blog.
Jodi's "sister" Julie has posted a new comment at GWoP (under the name The Truth Will Set You Free in response to that tacky horse picture thread): "....it may be edited, but they use what you give them. my sis is in TV PR world and has a good friend that works for TLC. per her friend, the show makes kate look MILD as compared to "real life". i guess she is a real bi&chand her controlling ways go far beyond her family. i really used to like the show, but the more i hear and see on tv, the less and less i can seem to tolerate her."
Am I reading this correctly?! If I am, it appears that not only is Julie Jodi's sister, but she also happens to have ANOTHER sister in TV PR who has a friend that works at TLC that happens to think Kate is a real b*tch. Gosh, this woman is amazingly well-connected. How handy.
I wonder - do you think she also happens to have an uncle who went to grade school with a kid who played on a basball team with a FedEx guy who once made a delivery to the Gosselins and thought Kate didn't smile enough?!
I thought GWOP already had all the experts working for them??
Why not err on the side of safety and send in a few experts and let them be the judge
Stephanie the attorney:
You wrote:
"I think that is why the GWoP website is not without its merits."
May I ask your thoughts about all of the vulgar and derogatory posts about the Gosselin children and their parents on the GwoP blog?
Obviously, I think that those posts dilute their credibility.
But I"m honestly interested in your thoughts.
I'm not really a pro/anti-Gosselin. I just think that the tactics of GwoP reveal their true motives which isn't to advocate for legislation to protect kids who participate in reality tv, but instead to bring down the Gosselin family.
There is a difference.
Precisely! When you have the moderators calling the parents names such as disgusting pigs, it kinda makes it hard to believe they really just care about the kids. Disgusting pigs is more a name Id use to describe someone who calls companies trying to find out who owns various blogs etc....
I'm not really a pro/anti-Gosselin. I just think that the tactics of GwoP reveal their true motives which isn't to advocate for legislation to protect kids who participate in reality tv, but instead to bring down the Gosselin family.
There is a difference.
Really, in that sense aren't the people from GwoP exploiting those kids in the name of supposedly changing the law about reality tv when their real deal is to bring down the Gosselins?
Regarding the comment posted at directed at Guinevere.
There has been a lot of name calling directed towards the moderators of GWOP and some of its posters.
Actually, I dislike the "tattling" that I have seen on this board.
Something will be posted over there and someone will copy and paste the post here and dissect it. When I try and find the original post - because to try and undestand its context one should see it in its original form to see posts that come before and after, etc. - it has already been removed. So please let the mods over there deal with there own people.
Now getting back to the name calling, to truly be fair, there should be no name calling. If that's not the case - then be thick skinned about it.
To touch on the "analyzing". If anyone thinks that Kate or Jon's behavior is normal then please state your reasons. I think at the very least they are both "off kilter". I am no expert but if we give up a belief in basic shared characteristics, motives and behavior, sociology and psychology become worthless fields of study.
I don't think every action shown should be picked apart either. I kind of see where they (anti Gosselin sentiment) are coming from. I don't need any further "proof" that Jon and Kate are being deceptive. Each little tidbit that is dug up from their past just reinforces my belief. The evidence is out there.
Yet, there are still a lot of people who find them to do no wrong and the people who question are just haters, jealous, crazy.
Last night I heard a commentator on the Olympics talk about the leader of the Chinese girls team. They said she was taken from her home at age 3 and taught gymnastics. He related that at one point she asked to stop doing gymnastics and come home and her parents would not allow it reminding her of what gymnastics could do for their family and their entire country. It made me think of this show, of course, the kids have not been taken from their parents but I think they have gotten on a treadmill (the parents) that they can't get off. Face it, without the tups there would be no show, without the show, there would be none of the material things this family has grown to love and expect.
And while I will concede that Jon and Kate are "working" how many 3 or 4 or 7 year olds in this country work.
Finn said - "Actually, I dislike the "tattling" that I have seen on this board.
Something will be posted over there and someone will copy and paste the post here and dissect it. When I try and find the original post - because to try and undestand its context one should see it in its original form to see posts that come before and after, etc. - it has already been removed. So please let the mods over there deal with there own people."
Finn - I think you might be misunderstanding the point of some of the cross posting. I don't think it has anything to do with "tattling."
I think it's people trying to actually have a dialogue about some of the comments. Unfortunatley, it's not possible to have a real dialogue at GWoP because there are so many comments the moderators refuse to publish And I don't mean nasty comments (they allow a lot of those through, as long as they're directed towards Kate). I mean just comments that disagree with or question something posted there. I think many people cross post and comment here because the purpose of the blog is stated to provide balance to the discussion. To have balance you have to allow dialogue and different opinions. Since that type of dialogue is very restricted at GWoP people look elsewhere. I don't think it's "tattling" at all.
Finn & mrsref --
You are some of the first people that i've heard describe your dislike of the Gosselin parents
*without resorting to diagnosing them with psychiatric conditions having never met them
*without referring to the mother as the b-word
*without referring to the father as lacking his man parts
As a matter of fact, you've not said that those people who see things differently from you have bad marriages or were raised in dysfunctional homes.
Can you see at least part of my point that the endless sniping at every single thing that these people do makes others suspicious of the supposed agenda of advocating for these kids?
(I'm not rhetorically asking this question ... )
Do you have the same objection to all child actors? I realize that their wages are protected with trusts and that there are certain restrictions on the amount of hours that they work, but in many of the families the parents are the managers, agents, and publicists taking their piece of their child's earnings.
When I try and find the original post - because to try and undestand its context one should see it in its original form to see posts that come before and after, etc. - it has already been removed. So please let the mods over there deal with there own people.
Well, that confuses me because the posts there are already moderated. So a mod would have to remove it after another mod approved it - is that what you are saying happens?
I don't see what is wrong with taking posts from GWoP and "dissecting" or analyzing or commenting on them here. Are you saying you think it's morally wrong? Or just unfair because things are taken out of context? I could point out that Kate's behavior is frequently taken out of context and twisted by anti-Gosselin posters.
I can't agree that I or anyone who posts here regularly is more "fervent" than your average GWoPper. I was just on the Princess Marie Chantal board and saw this post that had been brought over from GWoP:
"This is completely outrageous!!! I can't believe they come on week after week telling complete lies about absolutely everything!!! It is CRAZY to me that this woman has found a big money network to go along with her delusional whims..she should be rotting in an obscure corner of PA completely alone with no kids or husband ever. Seriously, she was goof looking for like five minutes and used that time to ensnare a low self esteem man to assist her and enable her ludicrous and unethical desires. Then she lost her looks, became a total shrew, abuses exploits her kids from the day they are born, lies every time she opens her mouth, hoodwinks honest people out of their hard earned money, and yet the money train flows on faster and faster. What a sad commentary on our society that we let this happen."
I'd challenge anyone to find a post here that even comes close to that level of vitriol. I could probably find a dozen on GWoP in a couple of minutes.
Just a question - would you watch the show no matter what?
I was going to answer this, but I realized I didn't understand your question. I thought you were asking, would I watch if it weren't for the controversy? The answer to that is yes. I enjoy the show. But if you meant something else, please clarify.
Finn - I think you might be misunderstanding the point of some of the cross posting. I don't think it has anything to do with "tattling."
The situation that I am referring to is this: Apparently, a poster had e-mailed the Pastor of one the churches were the Gosselins were going to speak and asked "nicely" how he could explain why they were chosen to speak.
The poster went onto say that a week went by and no response - so she e-mailed again.
She then received a terse response regarding how "Jon and Kate were inline with the teachings of his church"
Then another poster e-mailed the pastor as well. Apparently on the Church site itself it states "be prepared to give a love offering."
That was cut and posted over here and then the discussion was about how "dangerous" these people were, etc. etc.
I could not go back to see the chain of these posts because they had already been deleted. So in all fairness, there could be no "balanced" discussion.
Now what I received was the abbreviated version here and the REALLY nasty version over at Marie Chantal.
Personally, if the original poster asked the Pastor nicely, I don't think she deserved a nasty response. On the second hand, the second poster had the right to question the "demand" ("be prepared" is a demand, not a give if you want to request, IMO).
Pastors are human too. They are not beyond reproach. The pastor's blog was posted and I saw some of the dissenting posts. One - which had been posted months ago had to do with the "pregnant man" and his opinion about "unnatural birth" one comment was - "You are against this but you advocate Kate Gosselin?" - "what do you really believe" - another valid question. yet all of these comments were deleted. That I believe to be hypocritical.
I read on this board that the pastor was sent a "nice" e-mail and he responded to that one.
The Monsignor of my Parish drove a Trans Am (I am dating myself - a child of the 80s). No one questioned where his money was coming from. It turned out he was embezzling so much $ from not only the Parish but the archdiocese. These questions are allowed to be asked. there is no way Jon and Kate even need love offerings. and to be told to "be prepared" to give one - what kind of pastor would do that - his congregation is in rural pa - jon and kate have more money than probably his whole congregation will ever see in their lifetimes. yet, I bet after hearing the sob story, they will dig even deeper to augment their love offering.
That's what I meant by "tattling" - so and so said this - she's crazy, etc. they need to get a life blah blah. Let the mods over there deal with that. If you all come to a consensus that they are crazy - let them all be crazy together. No need bring it over here.
Do you have the same objection to all child actors?
No - to a point. I will tell you why - their business is regulated and for the most part aren't shown getting dressed or going to the bathroom. (that doesn't mean that they are completely safe either)
You know show business in general is exploitive - my DH's profession is on the outer fringes of entertainment - the bottom line is the bottom line. If these parents (of all child actors) aren't their children's number one advocates, no one will be.
from what i have seen, Jon and Kate are not seeing the whole picture - they are just dazzled by all of the things being dangled in front of them. IMO.
Not that I could ever really relate to them, but I used to watch for the kids and I don't even get that anymore. This week was all about the packing for the trip, the hunt for property, the vacation at the beach. No, "I am going to give back" or "I know Kevin and Jodi would have enjoyed coming along..." The pretense of "we are just a normal family" is starting to wear. Did you know the first house in VA was listed at 1.9 Million? I live in North. CA and that would only buy a house like the one they have now in a really good school district, but that is a lot of money. It puts the whole "I am exhausted" and the cries for "more space" into a different perspective. (are you still to prepared to give a love offering?)
I just paid Chevron $837 for my gas bill, so I know I can't.
Linda said...
Finn & mrsref --
"You are some of the first people that i've heard describe your dislike of the Gosselin parents without resorting to...."
Here, here! I completely agree.
It goes to show that mature adults can have a civil discussion even with strongly held opposing views. Refreshing indeed.
Guinevere,
The quote you pasted makes me sick to my stomach. I could never never imagine hating another human being as this person does....Ok, maybe if someone killed somebody I loved. That's about the only situation that I could think of that would inspire such RAGE. The fact that this poster doesn't know Kate IRL and still possesses this level of intensity of feeling is just unreal. And sad. And scary.
Finn - Thanks for your thoughtful response; I appreciate that you took the time. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, as I don't see a problem with the situation you described.
Based on my experience I assume whoever copied that post over here and commented did so because to give any sort of dissenting opinion on that situation (e-mailing the pastor at all, commenting on the e-mail tone, etc.) would not have been published at the GWoP site. They just don't allow questioning of themselves and what they're doing and why they're doing it and how they're doing it. It's unfortunate if that sometimes makes it hard for people to follow (though I think that's the exception, as they don't seem to change posts over there too often -- in fact they've made a point to say several times that they CAN'T edit posts, so it's a bit strange that you say the posts were edited or deleted). But I still don't see a problem with it. I'd rather the discussion take place -- and that includes the discussion of the GWoP board itself, as many people have some real concerns about it and the possible consequences of some of their content and behavior.
And with as much respect as I can muster, the mods over there are part of the problem and I flat-out don't trust them to "deal with it." JMHO.
Well, that confuses me because the posts there are already moderated. So a mod would have to remove it after another mod approved it - is that what you are saying happens?
Yes - I went back to GWOP and hit the "contact us" button and described the situation. One of the mods responded they had posted the original post, but then a deluge of posts followed (negative) so they decided to get rid of the "offending" post.
There was another topic on Christianity - sort of "I don't get the Christian connection, because they don't act Christian". It was well written, not judgemental, not preachy, a lot of people commented on it, but eventually it was pulled because it got a lot of negative comments. Let me clarify - "pending comments".
I don't see what is wrong with taking posts from GWoP and "dissecting" or analyzing or commenting on them here. Are you saying you think it's morally wrong? Or just unfair because things are taken out of context?
taken out of context. If you can't view the "coversation" in its entirety, it is not a balanced discussion.
...fervent
I am referring to when someone comments if it is anti-Gosselin the comment gets jumped on (quickly) I might add.
The tone of GWOP is definitely anti- Gosselin. But their "posters" are a united front. They rarely attack each other. You know what you are getting into when you go there. But if you notice, 9 times out 10, if there is an article about the Gosselins, most of the comments you will see are about how "inspirational" they are. I would never post on one of those sites. Regarding the child advocacy part - that is one of their "reasons" but there are others that I think are pretty well thought out.
I had to think back when I was told that I was "making excuses" and "rationalizing" and I realized that I wasn't even stating an opinion. I asked Former Gwop Fan to provided a link or elaborate where she had found the "personal" information (addressess of Jon's mother, etc) on the GWOP site - that's where she stated they could be found - on the site. Then she clarified that it was a message board "attached" to the GWOP site. I told her that I was a registered member of that board as well, and I couldn't find what she was speaking of . I asked again to provide a link - that's when she said I was rationalizing and making excuses. It was my own way of asking for "proof". Now she states the personal information can be found on a private message board that can only be accessed by invitation only that she is a member of.
I e-mailed one of the mods and while she agreed that she and other former members of TWOP would meet (like in a private chat room) and still continue to do so. GWOP was an offshoot of that. I didn't press her, because the impression I got was that she formed a friend ship with these other people and what they discuss in private is their own business. I did not like the fact that it was originally alluded that this was happening on GWOP (the public board)when it clearly was not.
Just a question - would you watch the show no matter what?
What I meant by this is there are some people whose defense of Kate and the show know no boundaries.
These things I find to be true (for argument's sake, let's not debate my "sources" for now.)
- Kate and Jon were never destitute. (Jon's father has always supported them - befor his death).
- Kate felt the need to appeal to the public because she felt she should not have to use "her" money for expenses.
- Kate protested the loss of their state provided nurse when the tup's turned one because she felt it was "society's responsibility" to raise her kids. Her reasoning "society" knows the "danger" of fertility drugs, so since the tups were the outcome they are responsible for taking care of them.
-Kate disowned her parents her Father's Church donated items to the tups that did not match and were not to her liking. When called on her behavior - she cut them off.
- Kate made her sister choose between a relationship with her or her parents. The sister chose her parents. She cut her off too.
- Kate has stated "no one makes money off my kids except me" - which is understandable to a sense but this applies to Beth and Jodi who were offered monetary compensation for their participation and Kate chose to cut them off as well to prevent this.
- Kate, even though the trips are of no cost to her, refuses TLC, Figure 8, which ever, to cover the costs of her helpers. Allowing the helpers to accompany them is enough compensation. (I am referring to the earlier helpers - WDW, etc. Jenny is a paid employee brought in to take Beth and Jodi's place who was asked to sign a confidentiality agreement.)
- Jon never lost his job because of insurance issues. He simply just stopped showing up.
- Jon's subsequent job was obtained when Kate asked the Lt. Gov. of PA to find him a job.
- The tups have college accounts - set up by the state of PA - now they are managed by a private entity "Upromise".
- Despite all of the money the Gosselins have made from the show, they continue to do speaking engagements that book for a $25000and or still command "love offerings"
Now let's say all of these points were "exposed" or proven to you in way that that you indeed believed all of this to be true.
Would you still watch the show?
I was just curious because I feel that the true "sheeple" still would.
If you believed any of the things I mentioned then apply those feelings to the post that Guinevere posted (the outrageous lies). Maybe then you can put yourself in the shoes of those who are galled that this deception goes on every week.
Anon 9:33Pm
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, as I don't see a problem with the situation you described.
Sorry could you please clarify, I talked about a lot of things (sorry I went on a tangent) what part did you mean?
Really, I am not a crazy cat lady. I have kids, not 8 though. I am not a perfect parent (shhh I let my kids drink soda). I work shift work so I am just winding down at the computer and not obsessing about this stuff. Actually, my "aha" moments come late at night when I am watching the show and the things that are mentioned contradict something that was shown or said last week. And I am not "LOOKING" for things either.
Thanks for taking the time to read.
Finn...
You don't find it a little creepy that these people scour the web for personal details about the family, know information (like name of Kate's parents....NEVER mentioned on the show) and say things like "Joely, look me up in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years....I'll never change my name" or something.
I don't remember who said they were offended by GWoP posters being referred to as "crazy" or "stalker" but I'm sorry...what is going on really getting dangerously close to the border of harassment. Contacting the pastor the churches the Gosselins are speaking at? This unsuspecting pastor probably got his inbox flooded with angry messages from GWoP members. But let's get up in arms because he only gives a two line reply. The fact that he replied at all was nice enough.
****Linda****** After doing more research...I know understand what you posted on my blog and thoroughly agree with you!
nomoredrama said: "And this is kind of where you lose me. I don't see the merit in ripping the parents apart, grossly exaggerating every parenting moment to fit their "abuse" agenda and then, to top of off, ripping on the kids in the name of an "agenda." GWoP is not in existence to advocate for these kids. They exist for their own entertainment and to see how many hits they can get on their blog"
I agree with you that I do not like the tone of that website. I don't have any involvement with that website other than I've read it a few times.
It's not my taste or style to rip someone up personally. It's just not.
But the reality is there needs to be a vehicle to get public sentiment that the children deserve legal protection just as other child actors in scripted media are afforded.
And I just don't know how that is done to be perfectly honest.
And to the poster who asked about how we would prove in a court of law they weren't being treated well - that's not the issue. You are right that Jon and Kate, TLC and Figure 8 could be abiding by child labor laws and laws regarding child actors - we'll never know. But if there *were* such laws on the books the concern that they wouldn't follow them would be ameliorated.
:)
Id like one person to explain to me how looking up Kates mothers employers website and seeing that her pic has been removed (which indicates multiple visits to the site if they knew it used to be there) is not stalking. There is just no excuse for it. The obsession one person in particular has for Joel makes my stomach turn, and yeah she said for him to look her up in FIVE years. You know, when he is 9. Creepy doesnt begin to describe it.
You don't find it a little creepy that these people scour the web for personal details about the family, know information (like name of Kate's parents....NEVER mentioned on the show) and say things like "Joely, look me up in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years....I'll never change my name" or something.
The fact that its private or secret does not change the fact that its disturbing for them to 1. have the information on family members to begin with. 2. distribute it to even one person, let alone the 100 people who have access to the secret board. There is nothing good that can come about from these people harassing family members and pastors and companies listed on "competing" blogs. Its insanity.
This "secret" board is just that secret - private. The information she speaks of is not on the public GWOP board. For her to divulge what is posted there is just like the insiders posting what they know.
Finn -
I know that you make a distinction between what is posted on the private message board and what is posted on the blog.
In the matter of the family's address, I do not make a distinction because I believe it may have been that information posted on their private board which led to the eventual post on the blog of the infamous picture.
I also agree with fgf who (more or less) said that when she read the posts on the private board that were even more derogatory about the kids then the one that were posted on the blog that maybe the stated agenda or "advocating" for these kids wasn't the real purpose.
I think that she was within her rights to change her perspective about the GwoP blog and it's private message board just as those who change their views on supporting J&K to now questioning them are within their rights.
My concerns are that the potential is there for someone to be hurt.
I also don't object to the kind of cross posting that has been discussed here. GwoP is very heavily moderated. Recently, there are more posts that offer an opposing view but in general there are very few dissenting posts that make it through their vetting process.
nomoredrama --
It's more than a little scary isn't it?
While some claim that Finn has managed to bring the other side's view to the table without the name calling and belittling that a majority of the GWoP defenders who have visited here resort to, I beg to differ:
I akin her rantings to a witch who has been banned by her coven.
Wow. Passive aggressive, much? Basically calling someone a "witch," while surrounding it with so much filler that unintelligent "sheeple" such as ourselves will never figure it out? Nice. Plus, then you ONCE AGAIN bring up the fact that you asked for proof of certain allegations made about the "private" board and did not get it, even though the last time you asked for the proof (that certain posts exist), it was explained to you that it was a private board, so a link would do no good....unless of course, you're a member of that board (which I have a sneaking suspicion, you are). Yet, you bring it up again, knowing full well what the answer would be. Passive aggressive beat down of the poster who "blew the Haters cover," accomplished.
Although I have to agree with the "coven" analysis of some of the people currently harassing the Gosselins. If the shoe fits....
I don't know if this secret board exists, even if it is run by the same mods that run GWOP
Oh, I think you do. I think you know that secret board QUITE well and are playing innocent. Becasue the last thing anyone who defends the existence of a "secret message board" would do is admit that it exists.
Jeeze. I think I just confused myself with this reply. Proof positive that beating this dead horse really goes nowhere. No one is changing their mind no matter how many manifestos Finn writes. Is that a requirement at GWoP by the way? Reply and argue over and over until the people you're trying to convince just give up and ignore you?
mcb -
Oopps. I didn't catch that post.
Point taken.
By the way Finn and mrsref -- you didn't answer my earlier question:
Can you see at least part of my point that the endless sniping at every single thing that these people do makes others suspicious of the supposed agenda of advocating for these kids?
Linda: I do see your point, it is valid. I personally try not to nit-pik every little thing. I am also not "personally advocating" for the kids, I just state my opinion on both boards. I don't have time to write letters, boycott, etc. I actually liked parts of the episodes this week - not so much the 2 million dollar house search but the wild horses and the lighthouse tour were interesting. I don't think I have made fun of the kids or Jon and Kate's appearance, manner of dress or whatever. I do, however, have a real problem with their church talks and love offerings. It infuriates me when preachers, lay people, whoever use the Lord's name to fill their own coffers. I have always been taught the Lord will supply your needs, not your wants. Just a personal problem I have. I do think the show should end - part of the problem is this family is so over-exposed. They are on two or three times a day, the all day marathons on holidays/Sundays and all night on Wednesday.
Finn - Great post, you have a way with words and there is a calm tone to your post.
The one thing I have noticed while looking at various boards devoted to the Gosselins. The "pro" Kate posters almost always use personal attacks. It's the same on here. One example is MCB, this poster basically accuses you of lying saying that you do not the "secret' board, whatever the hell that is.
I don't know the truth about the Gosselins, all I know is that by reading these threads, there are three posters that constantly pick apart posters, accusing them of coming from GWOP and of stalking the Gossleins.
Those posters MCB, Anya and Guinevere appear irrational and would rather argue their point than discuss the original blog in the thread.
Anon 8:53AM,
With all due respect, some of the people posting here have waited quite some time to be able to express their opinions. The reason you do not have posters questioning each other on GWoP because it is not allowed. I have only noticed people with opposing opinions being allowed to post recently. I really don’t want to hear the argument that the comments that were sent in to GWoP by disgruntled posters here were rude and disrespectful, because that just wasn’t true. That is their choice and the way the want to run their blog. Over here we allow for a discussion of both views and that is why you are seeing what you are seeing. It is the way we choose to run “are” blog. I wouldn’t say everything you see here is a personal attack. There have been some great discussions. Two different blogs, two different ways of handling things. In fact, your post appears somewhat of a personal attack also.
mrsref -
Personally, the supposed activists are the ones who scare me.
anon 8:53 -
How I read mcb's post is this. She is saying that if the board is so secret, finn may not even acknowledge it's existence because that would reveal the secret.
Also, pro-Kate supporters aren't the only ones who resort to name-calling.
One of the moderators of the other board visited here to tell me that I had a ... let me see ... I think that the delicate words she used were ...
pathetic existence.
and to (in an equally respectful way)
shut the (beep) up
The kind of name-calling and insulting you are referring to goes on in both sides.
That being said, calling MCB, Anya and Guinevere irrational is also name-calling. It may be high vocabularly name calling, but it is name calling.
Okay, I posted the comment about the emails to the pastor, so let me explain.
Here are the two comments I was speaking of in their entirety:
FIONA said...
Here's an interesting tidbit. The Gosselins are guests at the Cornerstone Christian Fellowship on Sept 14 in Glenside, Pa. Here's what the advert says on their website: "We are excited to be hosting the cast of "Jon and Kate Plus 8" on Sunday, September 14 at 10:00 am. Completing the requested information below will pre-register you for this event. We are asking only those within a 15 mile radius of the church to pre-register and attend, as there is limited seating available. Thank you for understanding. This event is free, but please come prepared to give in a love offering toward the Gosselin’s
____
I sent a lenghty email to the pastor of this church. I was asking him to counsel me on the attributes and inspiration that Jon and Kate being to their community and church. I was very respectful and told if I found myself very confused on this subject. I also mentioned why people in his congregation were expected to give money to a family who is on a very profitable tv show, where so many of their personal day to day needs, wants and desires where already being met above and beyond those in his church.
A week went by and I got no reponse. I emailed him again, stating my confusion and disappointment that a pastor would not have taken the time to answer my questions and address my concerns. Again, I was very respectful and courteous. I finally received a 2 line response in large font that Jon and Kate are in line with the teachings of the church, and God Bless you, Pastor .....
I was very shocked that a pastor could not speak to why they had chosen a certain guest. He did not know if I was a memeber of his church or community. I think he was very neglectful in his duties as a pastor, as well as not giving me any counseling or advice whatsoever. The whole thing was a shock. Makes me wonder if these pastors are getting a cut of the proceeds. I am not even joking. My father is an evagelical Baptist. He sits on the International Missionary Board. He rarley watches TV....but I asked him to watch this show a few times. He saw nothing remotley depicting CHristian values in this family and was most put off by Jon by not taking a "handle" on this family. After all, Kate should be submissive to here husband.
Maybe there is more going on in these rural Churches then we know....
sabrinasmom said...
Sorry, Fiona, your comment pissed me off so I e-mail the nice pastor as well...
"This event is free, but please come prepared to give in a love offering toward the Gosselin’s."
This is disgusting. Why should you dictate what your congregation be "prepared" to do. These people make more money than most of them. They are noting but a sham and for you to let them spread their propaganda is even more disgusting. Since you have told people that Jon and Kate Gosselin are "in line with the teachings of the church" it makes me wonder what kind of person YOU are Pastor Jason. God Bless YOU and have fun spending your share of the "love" offerings.
This pretty much covers every problem I have with gwop. They make assumptions about j+k based on 22 minutes of edited tv and of course, whatever they see online. They made an assumption about this pastor based on ONE EMAIL.
I seriously doubt that was the only email he recieved about this, probably some more vicious than others, and I would bet that they all got the same response.
And so what if GWOP deleted it? It should never have happened in the first place and the fact that they did post it shows that at least one of them supported it.
Those posters MCB, Anya and Guinevere appear irrational and would rather argue their point than discuss the original blog in the thread.
Is too much to ask that you actually bother to read my posts before commenting on them?
If you did you would see that I DID post a direct comment to JJ's post (on August 12th). It seems these blog entries often serve as a jumping off point for discussion. I don't think every post in the "Heading South" entry deals 100% with Monday night's show.
I have much respect for the other two posters you singled out, but I tend to stay away from accusing someone from coming from this site or that site. (Not that I haven't done it, but it's rare).
Have I accused some folks of stalking the Gosselin's? There have been several different incidents that have been brought up. Some of the actions have bordered on stalking in my opinion. Others just are just creepy or lack common sense.
I was hoping to respond to Finn's post regarding "what you continue to watch...if", because I thought the points she brought up were well-thought out and worth a discussion, but I guess I would considered off-topic, or irrational, or whatever name you want to call me.
Anya, you and Guinevere can come sit next to me at the "irrational bad kid's table." We'll take turns bringing in treats! Who's got some Monkey Munch?
These things I find to be true (for argument's sake, let's not debate my "sources" for now.)
Emphasizing my point, Finn lists all the things she "finds to be true" about Jon and Kate (which is quite a long list of GWoP talking points that we've all heard and most of which I could care less about) and that we're just going to have to trust her on her source. Wait a second, isn't that what she just criticized a poster (and basically called her a witch) for? Because she didn't provide adequate "proof" that the not so secret message board existed? Pot...kettle...black.
And regarding the list of things we're supposed to find so distasteful. Jon's dad supported them at first. Big deal. Lots of parents do that, especially if said parent was a dentist and well off, and his son and his wife were expecting six babies at one time. Any parent with means is going to do what Dr. Gosselin did. I also assume that in the first show, when they moved to their current home, that the down payment was probably inherited from Dr. Gosselin, who had passed away prior to that. Once again, big deal. I know plenty of parents that gave (or willed) their kids money, especially to help them out in buying a home.
Also, just the fact that you know that Jon "just stopped showing up" to work (information provided by the infamous Julie, no doubt) is WAY more information than a bunch of strangers on the Internet should be privy to. No doubt Julie is the source of most of those personal tidbits such as salary information. Who's getting paid and who isn't. Once again, intrusive as hell and you guys thinks it's okay to discuss this? WOW. Added to the fact that the person providing this information is a disgruntled sister of an in-law?
Personally, if I were Kate or Jon and I found out that my sister-in-law, who I trusted to care for my kids, had a sister basically providing the World Wide Web with personal and private family information that any whack job could use to bring harm to my kids? Well, she wouldn't see those kids until they were 18 and could legally seek out Aunt Jodi for themselves (and I LIKE Aunt Jodi and think the Gosselins kids NEED to see her and have a relationship with Kevin, Jodi and their cousins). But, if she can't control her sister and politely tell her to stop, then our relationship would be done.
Yes - I went back to GWOP and hit the "contact us" button and described the situation. One of the mods responded they had posted the original post, but then a deluge of posts followed (negative) so they decided to get rid of the "offending" post.
Hmm, that sounds like "damage control" to me.
...fervent
I am referring to when someone comments if it is anti-Gosselin the comment gets jumped on (quickly) I might add.
I would quibble with "jumped on" - I would say "disagreed with." Which, again, is a risk that one takes posting on a public message board. If GWoP was willing to put through pro-Gosselin comments, are you telling me people there wouldn't "jump on" the poster?
The tone of GWOP is definitely anti- Gosselin. But their "posters" are a united front. They rarely attack each other.
Well, again, the moderators don't allow much in the way of dissenting views. If everyone agrees, there is less reason to "attack" anyone.
Honestly, I think much of what you're talking about is a function of the fact that Nina Bell has chosen to let through almost all comments, even if they offer a dissenting view and even if they are hostile to specific posters. GWoP moderates comments much more heavily, so I don't think what you see is necessarily a reflection of the totality of comments that people make.
But if you notice, 9 times out 10, if there is an article about the Gosselins, most of the comments you will see are about how "inspirational" they are. I would never post on one of those sites.
I'm sorry, I'm not understanding you. I don't think I've seen much in the way here of people calling the Gosselins "inspirational". Are you talking about another site?
What I meant by this is there are some people whose defense of Kate and the show know no boundaries.
And there are people whose criticism of them and the show knows no boundaries. I really don't think any of the regular posters here are fervent defender. I know I have gone out of my way to say that I don't always like the Gosselins or everything they do. I think there's a discussion to be had about whether the show is exploitive. I respect the opinions of people who think it is exploitive, but there are very few posters I've seen that hold that opinion that seem reasonable to me in general. Most of the time they seem blinded by hatred for Kate Gosselin and obsessed with the brief shots of children going potty. By the way they go on, one would think that the show was called "Potty Time With the Gosselin Family" and consisted of 22 minutes each week of the sextuplets going to the bathroom.
These things I find to be true (for argument's sake, let's not debate my "sources" for now.)
- Kate and Jon were never destitute. (Jon's father has always supported them - befor his death).
See, I don't care about this one way or the other.
- Kate felt the need to appeal to the public because she felt she should not have to use "her" money for expenses.
I don't know if this is true or not. It sounds like an "interpretation" from a hater, but without sources, I can't comment on it.
- Kate protested the loss of their state provided nurse when the tup's turned one because she felt it was "society's responsibility" to raise her kids. Her reasoning "society" knows the "danger" of fertility drugs, so since the tups were the outcome they are responsible for taking care of them.
Same as above. Kate may have some issues with money, and some awkwardness with how she expresses herself, but this sounds over the top. If it's true, then I disagree with her. But I don't have to always agree with Kate to enjoy watching the show.
What I'm trying to say is that Kate's supposed sense of entitlement doesn't bother me the way it does some people. It's not that I admire it or rationalize it or make excuses for it - it just doesn't bother me that much.
-Kate disowned her parents her Father's Church donated items to the tups that did not match and were not to her liking. When called on her behavior - she cut them off.
Again, I don't know the facts. This sounds over the top and extreme, even for Kate. I lean towards thinking that there is more going on there than we're aware of. Finn, you point out that "context" is important, but it seems that a lot of the behavior you're referencing may be taken out of context. Because it doesn't just make Kate look rude or greedy or entitled - it makes her look pretty nutty. They have not shied away from showing Kate's bad side on TV, so if she were *this* irrational, I would think we'd know it by now.
- Kate made her sister choose between a relationship with her or her parents. The sister chose her parents. She cut her off too.
- Kate has stated "no one makes money off my kids except me" - which is understandable to a sense but this applies to Beth and Jodi who were offered monetary compensation for their participation and Kate chose to cut them off as well to prevent this.
- Kate, even though the trips are of no cost to her, refuses TLC, Figure 8, which ever, to cover the costs of her helpers. Allowing the helpers to accompany them is enough compensation. (I am referring to the earlier helpers - WDW, etc. Jenny is a paid employee brought in to take Beth and Jodi's place who was asked to sign a confidentiality agreement.)
Okay, there is not much point in me responding to these point by point - my response is pretty much the same. You "know" these things to be true, but you don't want to debate your sources. I *don't* know these things to be true. A lot of them don't pass the smell test for me - many seem like they might have a grain of truth to them, but then they've been put through the KateHaterator and twisted beyond recognition.
For instance, I can believe that there may have been some issues with Jodi, possibly even jealousy on Kate's part because of the people who revere Jodi as a maternal ideal online. I can't believe that Kate actually stated "no one makes money off my kids except me." That just doesn't even make sense, and it doesn't sound like Kate.
- Jon never lost his job because of insurance issues. He simply just stopped showing up.
- Jon's subsequent job was obtained when Kate asked the Lt. Gov. of PA to find him a job.
I don't know this to be true and I don't care if it is. I'm not sure what exactly it proves if it is true, except that Jon is kind of unmotivated.
- The tups have college accounts - set up by the state of PA - now they are managed by a private entity "Upromise".
Are people really arguing whether there are college accounts or not? I don't understand why this is an issue of such great fascination. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Why does anyone care?
- Despite all of the money the Gosselins have made from the show, they continue to do speaking engagements that book for a $25000and or still command "love offerings"
I don't find that figure credible. I don't care about the "love offerings". If people want to give J&K money, that's their business. I wouldn't give them money, but that's just me.
Now let's say all of these points were "exposed" or proven to you in way that that you indeed believed all of this to be true. Would you still watch the show?
Okay, again, I don't care about the money stuff. If the interpersonal stuff with Jodi and Kate's father were proven to be true EXACTLY as you've stated, with no mitigating circumstances or context to explain such seemingly irrational behavior, I don't think I could enjoy the show. I would wonder about Jon and Figure 8 exploiting a woman who would clearly be very mentally ill. The behavior you are describing - the things that you "know" she has said, verbatim - that is not the behavior of a normal, mentally healthy person. It would disturb me to watch the show then. It wouldn't make me hate Kate, but it would make me sad, that no one is helping her and that her kids, who seem so happy now, are going to have to see her irrational behavior growing up.
If you believed any of the things I mentioned then apply those feelings to the post that Guinevere posted (the outrageous lies). Maybe then you can put yourself in the shoes of those who are galled that this deception goes on every week.
I'm sorry, I'm not getting your point here. Are you saying that the person who talked about wanting to see Kate "rotting" and alone is justified in despising a total stranger if any or all of these "facts" are true? Sorry, I don't agree. Such hatred for someone who has never done anything to you is unjustified and inhumane, IMO. I mean, I can see maybe hating Osama bin Laden or someone like that that much (not that I think it's right or not right; I can just understand it better). But I don't think Kate Gosselin=Osama bin Laden. Nothing she has done justifies the vitriol, IMO. Even if you believe every bad thing you've heard about her. There is just no reason to hate someone so much who hasn't done anything to you, just because she is obnoxious and irrational (assuming she is).
You don't find it a little creepy that these people scour the web for personal details about the family, know information (like name of Kate's parents....NEVER mentioned on the show) and say things like "Joely, look me up in 5 years, 10 years, 20 years....I'll never change my name" or something.
I don't read GWOP with a fine-tooth comb. I have never seen the comment about Joel. Yes, that would be gross. In regards to the information - why would someone go out of their way to find out this information? IMO I think it's just for the need to be "right" I think people want to find out from Kate's Mom herself all the things that have been floating around. To be honest, maybe I just don't know how to find out these things, I don't know their address. I read that board, I read this board, but I don't necessarily agree with everything that is posted there or here.
secret board I am not a member of the secret board. Like I said I pressed for more information about it. I asked Former GWOP Fan about it, I asked the mods over at GWOP about it. I cannont comment on whether it is "right" or "wrong" because I have never seen what is posted there. I still stand by my opinion that if it is by invitation only - then it is contained within their own membership. I cannot speculate on what those memberw will or will not do with the information that they have.
I akin her rantings to a witch who has been banned by her coven.
This was meant to be tongue in cheek. I was alluding to the undercurrent of "secret society" information. Aunt Jodi's sister gets criticized for providing "inside" information but FGF, who admits she was a member of the "secret" board now has sour grapes and is treated as a "whistle blower". It just reminded me of the movie "the Craft".
it was explained to you that it was a private board, so a link would do no good....unless of course, you're a member of that board (which I have a sneaking suspicion, you are)
You can believe me or not, I am not a member of this board. When I pressed for a link, I was thinking more in terms of asking for an "invitation" to this board to see first hand.
here is the e-mail dated July 29th:
finn dodd to serenaleighbell, sharla.smith
show details Jul 29 Reply
Does Gosselins Without Pity have a Private Message Board I could please be invited to? Thank you!
fervent
So I basically got called a liar among other things, but it's all good. I laid out what I don't like about the show. The kids are cute. But it isn't about the "normalness" of the family. Some of things Jon and Kate have done are just wrong. I am not accusing them of child abuse, exploitation maybe, but if it all came crashing down? Would their lives be ruined? No, because they could get jobs to support their family, just like everyone else.
These things I find to be true (for argument's sake, let's not debate my "sources" for now.)
Emphasizing my point, Finn lists all the things she "finds to be true" about Jon and Kate (which is quite a long list of GWoP talking points that we've all heard and most of which I could care less about) and that we're just going to have to trust her on her source. Wait a second, isn't that what she just criticized a poster (and basically called her a witch) for? Because she didn't provide adequate "proof" that the not so secret message board existed? Pot...kettle...black.
And regarding the list of things we're supposed to find so distasteful. Jon's dad supported them at first.
I was trying to list the reasons why I have an issue with the show. I am not trying to convert anyone. These points have been exposed and proven to a point to ME. If you chose not to agree, I am not arguing. I did not call FGF a witch for not providing "proof", I was making the distinction that Aunt Jodi's sister is criticized for providing insider information that is basically Anti-Gosselin and when FGF provides insider information about GWOP she is treated like a whistle blower - a crusader for exposing GWOP. Most of what I believe comes from the Aunt Jodi's sister's blog. She has already proven that she is Jodi's sister, she explains what she posted has come from Jodi and what Jodi is comfortable with sharing. Jodi still wanted to preserve a relationship with her family. I believe Jodi's sister when she explains that she was angry for the way her sister was treated. The part about the nurse is from an article that can be found here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1400462/posts
Now, not everything is 100% verifiable, but one has to draw the line at what to believe and what not to believe. This is proof enough for me.
In regards to Jon's father supporting them, no there is nothing wrong with that, but if you go from church to church to ask for handouts telling the congregation that you had to "look for coins in your couch to pay your mortgage" when your father is supporting you, I believe that to be wrong.
If someone has lied once, everytime you have a conversation with him or her would you pay attention to what was said?
Like I said, I am not trying to convert anyone. The answer really would be just to stop watching. I admit though, I think the kids are cute, I just wish Jon and Kate would be forthcoming about the money issues, because it is a big part of the show.
The one thing I have noticed while looking at various boards devoted to the Gosselins. The "pro" Kate posters almost always use personal attacks.
Just saying it doesn't make it so. I think there are people on both sides who make personal attacks. I've been called "stupid" among other things, on this board.
When people feel passionate about something, it's not surprising that the other side gets demonized to some degree. In my (admittedly biased) experience, the GWoPpers are much more passionate and personal in their opinions than the pro-Gosselin posters here, and as a result they tend to go for the ad hominem attacks more often. But I don't expect you to see it the same way.
For myself, I've made an effort lately not to call people out by name (I may have done so earlier in the blog; I can't remember). I don't think much good can come of it, and it is rude. But I won't back down from calling certain behaviors crazy, nutty, stalkerish, overinvested and disrespecting of personal boundaries. These behaviors aren't practiced by all of the posters at GWoP, I don't think (I haven't read comments there in a long time). But saying you want to see Kate "rot", looking up personal info on the web about her mother (who has never even been on the show!), etc. - to me these things so clearly go beyond the bounds of appropriate behavior. I don't feel that I'm attacking anyone by saying that; I'm just speaking the truth as I see it. (Yes, "crazy" and "nutty" are perjorative, and, well, unkind terms, but I prefer them to actual clinical terms. I'm not a doctor, I don't play one on TV, and I dislike Internet Diagnosis Syndrome (IDS), whereby people with no training diagnose various television personalities with various mental illnesses based on what they see on TV.)
I don't know the truth about the Gosselins, all I know is that by reading these threads, there are three posters that constantly pick apart posters, accusing them of coming from GWOP and of stalking the Gossleins.
See, I get the feeling that when I'm being told that I "pick apart" posts, the subtext is, "You're questioning me and I don't have a rational answer to your questions and I don't like it and therefore it's your fault." You have the right to your opinions. You don't have the right to not have your opinions questioned. I'm sorry you don't like it, but that's the way it is.
I don't know that I've accused people of coming from GWoP, but I do assume that most of the anti-Gosselin posters who post here at least read GWoP. I don't know what's wrong with that assumption. It's not like I'm saying you're with the KGB and you've come to spy on us.
I do get mildly annoyed with the occasional poster who posts her points and tries to play all coy when someone brings up GWoP, "What's GWoP? Me, I just fell of of a turnip truck; I don't know anything about any GWoP." Like the poster called "etownmom" (I think that was her handle) that Nina Bell exposed the other day. I suppose someone *might* come here and having never been to GWoP just happen to spout the complete GWoP party line, but I think in most cases it's unlikely. In any case, like I said, I don't know why accusing someone of coming here from GWoP is a bad thing.
Those posters MCB, Anya and Guinevere appear irrational and would rather argue their point than discuss the original blog in the thread.
I know I'm not irrational. MCB certainly doesn't appear irrational. And Anya, if anything, I think tries to be very welcoming and reasonable about seeing the other side, so I think it's quite unfair of you to call her irrational.
I'm not going to go back and analyze all of our responses to each blog entry to see if what you say is true, but speaking for myself I don't think I post responses unrelated to blog entries, unless they are responses to earlier posts in the thread. I don't think there's anything wrong with allowing the discussion to grow in an organic way, but if Nina Bell has a problem with it, she can let us know. I doubt she does, as I haven't found her to be rigid or rule-bound at all.
I know I'm not irrational. MCB certainly doesn't appear irrational. And Anya, if anything, I think tries to be very welcoming and reasonable about seeing the other side, so I think it's quite unfair of you to call her irrational.
Totally agree here. Anya is a LOT sweeter than I am! Guinevere's posts are articulate and rational, so I was kind of jazzed to be lumped in the same group with them, actually.
Finn has sent me copies of some e-mails that were exchanged between a moderator at GWoP and herself. They clearly indicate that she is not a member of their private board. So we can put that issue to rest.
Aw, back at ya, mcb! We can be like an axis of evil, or something? (Wait, do you need four for an axis? I'm bad at geometry...)
I'm somebody that really enjoyed this show despite being constantly being mocked by my husband for watching something that billions of people do every day - parent.
I recently stopped watching the show. Why? Not because I think Kate is an abuser or needs CPS called or anything of that nature. I always thought that she was not always appropriate (making fun of her husband in front of her children, describing one child in very kind terms and another not so much), but at the end of the day none of us are perfect, and at the end of the day I would be lying if I said I was always respectful of my hubby or patient.
But then there was the gum incident. I was very upset seeing her child crying for his bear and her screaming at him. I was thinking under what possible circumstance I would ever do that. If i was unbelievably stressed? I just lost my job? Somebody close to me had just died? Then I realized, nope, I would NEVER EVER do that. And there's no excuse for why Kate did it either.
So basically, Anon 12:56, you did what most rational people do when they see something they don't like. They turned off the show. Wow. What a concept! I also didn't like the "Beargate" incident, or the entire hairplug episode.
I wish more people did what you did, rather than work each other up into a frenzy on the Internet.
Anon 12:56 p.m. said...
But then there was the gum incident. I was very upset seeing her child crying for his bear and her screaming at him. I was thinking under what possible circumstance I would ever do that. If i was unbelievably stressed? I just lost my job? Somebody close to me had just died? Then I realized, nope, I would NEVER EVER do that. And there's no excuse for why Kate did it either.
It's funny you bring it up as I just happened to catch this scene again just yesterday. I came home from work, flipped on the TV and happened to be on TLC. As I was putting things away, I noticed that this was the end of "Mady's Day". All seemed fine until Kate spotted the gum and then...well we all know what happened after that. Not pretty. I am not going to defend or excuse Kate on this one other than to say that I don't think she was "screaming". It doesn't matter in my book because she acted totally unreasonable. Collin did not *do* anything wrong and threatening to throw out the bear (which I don't think she really intended to do) was mean and uncalled for.
In trying to rack my brain to see if I ever did anything similar to my then 3 or 4 year-old, (she's 16 now), I honestly can't remember one way or another. I do know, however, that there are many moments as a parent where I have said things or acted in such a way I wish I could take back. And these incidents have happened for a variety of reasons, but yeah, being stressed is usually one of my button pushers.
This is the worst I have seen Kate act. I am sorry, I just don't see anything particularly concerning with all the other "gates". Such as: Knobgate" (when I finally saw it after reading about it, I was stunned because I couldn't see what the big deal was), Cupcakegate (another non-issue as far as I am concerned) or Icecreamgate (ohmygawd, have you ever spent 6+ hours at Disneyland with toddlers? I have with just one kid and EVERYONE is in a bad mood by the end of the day).
So, I am willing to let this one go as I haven't seen anything approaching it since. I applaud you for making the right decision for you, however. There are many many shows out there and if a person or character bugs you, just move on. That's the sane response. That's why I stopped watching "The Real World". Ok, granted I was probably falling out of their demographic, but you get my point - it wasn't enjoyable to watch these people anymore and so I turned it off.
Somewhere in all this is the truth.
And until "60 minutes", "20/20". or "Dateline" does a story on Joh and Kate and the 8, we'll never know.
Okay, I saw that episode and I still do not see what the fuss is about.
She was not "screaming", at least by my standards and did anyone stop to think that if she didn't care about joel(or was it collin?) and his comfort item she wouldn't have been so stressed about getting it clean? If she's such a cold hearted bitch like she's been made out to be over this she'd have just thrown it away and been done with it. Yeah, maybe she got a little too upset over the gum but she's a little anal. We know that.
And I'm sorry but Jodi has to take a little bit of responsibility here. She gave 6 3 year olds gum. I know there are those who disagree with me on this but I think that was a bad idea. My kids don't even know what gum is. Maybe Jodi's cool with that but has she ever met Kate? She knew she would have a cow if it got on their things.
I just think all the gates (cupcake-gate, gum-gate) are just blown completely out of proportion and used to make kate look like an ogre.
Fanny said...
"If she's such a cold hearted bitch like she's been made out to be over this she'd have just thrown it away and been done with it."
Good point. I hadn't considered it from that perspective before. I'll admit to throwing away toys or accidentally losing items of my daughter's that were getting yucky or falling apart because I didn't have the time or expertise to restore it. Not that I would tell her to her face. ("Hmm, not sure where that item went honey.")
Ok, now I will probably be lumped in the ogre category with Kate. Oh well, I know I love my daughter and do my best by her. I don't need to *prove* it to the world and neither does Kate in my book.
Oh yes, there are things I said or did raising my children that I wish I could take back. All said in the heat of the moment or under stressful conditions.
And as long as the "coven of witches" comparison was made for my benefit, let me say that there was no "excommunication" from the Super Seekret Message Board." One day, I simply had enough. There was no fight, no proclamation that "you are a bunch of lunatics and I'm outta here." No fight and no "banishment." I simply stopped going to the board and deleted it from my bookmarks. In fact, my last day there was the day one of them posted about a "new" blog called "Gosselins Don't Need our Pity." They were feeling pretty smug and self important about this lonely little blog and had a good laugh about it. I checked out the link, decided that THIS place was more to my liking and I left for good and it felt GREAT. It felt GREAT to get them out of my system and I don't regret blowing their cover one bit. Shrug. Sorry. What's right is right and I know that I did the right thing by exposing their hypocrisy. If that makes me a witch, so be it. It's all good. My conscious is clear.
Guinevere spoke of context in regards to Finn's list of GWoP talking points regarding KateHate. "She's cut her poor parents out of her life." Well, if Finn had given you the full story, in context, would it sound as bad? If Finn had mentioned that Julie told them that Kate's father was a horrible control freak (obviously, Kate has inherited a bit of this) and that only ONE of his five children (the youngest daughter) will have anything to do with him right now?
Context is quite important, but is very often ignored to make a point to swing people to your side of the story.
What's right is right and I know that I did the right thing by exposing their hypocrisy. If that makes me a witch, so be it. It's all good. My conscious is clear.
Apply the same explanation to why Julie decided to come forward. It appears she has gained nothing but contempt here.
Guinevere spoke of context in regards to Finn's list of GWoP talking points regarding KateHate. "She's cut her poor parents out of her life." Well, if Finn had given you the full story, in context, would it sound as bad?
I never said I hated Kate. The things I listed were items that have been brought up that I have issues with. If you go back to one of my first posts regarding the parents I explained that having one set of estranged parents can be understood - not everyone has great parents, but both? The common denominator is Jon and Kate. I certainly did not refer to Kate's parents as "poor" - as if they had nothing to do with the estrangment.
Context is quite important, but is very often ignored to make a point to swing people to your side of the story.
I don't have a "my" side to the story - this is only one person's opinion, I am not trying to convert anyone.
If Finn had mentioned that Julie told them that Kate's father was a horrible control freak (obviously, Kate has inherited a bit of this) and that only ONE of his five children (the youngest daughter) will have anything to do with him right now?
Which "them" are you referring to? I did not know this (about Kate's father). When I mentioned Kate's parents I was thinking more in line with the parents and their church did a lot for Kate but since they were not to her liking - she turned them away (the items), if someone is truly needy do they not accept any item being given to them?
One difference. My conscious clearing didn't involve telling family secrets involving children and fueling the feeding frenzy of a group of people just chomping at the bit for every nugget of juicy information to use to ruin the parents of those children. Julie has. Oh, I could have named names. I could have told which posters were the most offensive, or which ones made fun of a tup's appearance, or which one gloated about how many magazines she's contacted to get them to write a hatchet piece on the family, or how many agencies she's called to get them to investigate the family. Or which poster digs into the personal business of Gosselin family members and posts that information for the rest of the board to read and take note of, or which poster drove by the Gosselin house and took a picture of the sign and then posted it, or the one who posted satellite photos of the Gosselin neighborhood and home. I could have done it. But I did not. Not stooping to those levels was more important than providing juicy gossip or "proof."
I also could have elaborated on some of the stuff Julie said about Kate's father, but that would have put me in her territory and I don't want that, either. Do we really need to know all this stuff? no. I don't think so. I don't need to know some of the list of information you posted about Kate, and like a couple others said today, I don't care about a lot of it, either.
Regarding the suggestion that Julie post her personal info as proof, I say no. I don't want to know Julie's personal information any more than I wanted to know Kate and Jon's parents and siblings private information.
to ruin the parents of those children
For me what Julie has revealed is just an inside look as to what type of people Jon and Kate truly are. Their modus operandi, if you will.
For argument's sake - let say "ALL TRUTHS ARE REVEALED" - hypothetically every awful possible thing said is revealed to be true. Jon and Kate lose the show, the sponsorship, all the material things - would they really be "ruined"?
I think they would survive and their family would be supported by two able bodied parents who were always able to do this in the first place.
Fanny said:
"She was not "screaming", at least by my standards and did anyone stop to think that if she didn't care about joel(or was it collin?) and his comfort item she wouldn't have been so stressed about getting it clean? If she's such a cold hearted bitch like she's been made out to be over this she'd have just thrown it away and been done with it."
She was not screaming by your standards? I'd hate to be around when you're screaming! She didn't have to follow through on her threats to throw away Collin's comfort item to be a cold hearted bitch, sorry the threat alone was cold hearted enough. Collin was terrified of his mother at that moment and for what reason? What did he do wrong? Why was he being punished? What was Kate's reasoning behind throwing away her son's most treasured possession? Because she's too exhausted to bark special cleaning instructions to her volunteer staff that do her laundry? Are we to believe her excuse during her couch interview, "People just don't realize the hours upon hours I spend with stain removal".
Nothing made up here folks, nothing to pick apart, although I am sure you will.
I wrote my post "unleash the passion" because I was hoping that someone would feel the way I did and maybe we could start a discussion about the things we are passionate about in our own lives! Instead it turned into a display of backstabbing, name calling and pettiness, just the thing I was trying to avoid! Yes, we have opinions about the Gosselins good and bad, but come on people, it's a tv show for God's sake! Like I said I wish I could get some of the passion you feel for the Gosselins (either pro or con) and put it towards something constructive in the lives of your own families!
I have to agree with 10:15 pm. Not one of Kate's better moments. And for JJ, what makes you think that many of the people on these sites are not doing constructive things with their families? You can't do both? Maybe you should start a blog about your passions and we will come over and discuss ours.
To JJ:
I thought your post was very well written and everybody should take a moment to read it and reflect on it. We all have our opinions - strongly held ones apparently - but, what we *think* is really irrelevant (a point I wish the folks on the other board would understand). We (on this board and other Gosselin related boards)are not doing anything "grand" here. We are posting on a message board about a reality TV show.
But, you know what, I think that's fine. It's called diversion and we all need it. There are always a number of things one could be doing to better spend one's time. I wish I could become more involved in some of the causes you mentioned. I won't bore you with excuses, but I assure you the hour or so a day I spend on this blog and other sites (usually, intermittently, and at work, ssshh -- don't tell), aren't keeping me from pursuing some great civic good.
As for the tone of the posts, I am somewhat of a message board "newbie", but from I have heard, the discussion here is not particularly extreme in terms of name calling, etc. Or is it? Maybe those with more experience will chime in and set me straight.
I also agree with 10:15 pm. I'm not sure how you define screaming - I've never raised my voice that high in my entire life (and Collin wasn't the only one to endure it - Aaden and Mady were on the receiving end as well). IMO, I don't think she cared about the comfort item at all - she cared about the 90 seconds of stain removal she had to perform. She said it herself on the couch (though for her it turned from 90 seconds to hours and hours). Also, she treated Aunt Jodi horribly. Even if she shouldn't have given them gum (which I didn't see as a problem because most three year olds can handle gum just fine), this woman just took care of seven of your children all day long. If she had called me and said that I would have said, 'Okay, good luck with finding someone else to take all your children - I'm done'.
We all say things that we regret when we are stressed. I guess my big issue is that Kate seems to do it a lot and this was the worst I had seen of it(I concede this could be due to editing of the show). Also, I really just don't see that natural mothering instinct in her that most women have. I remember watching Collin throw Alexis onto the cement but Kate didn't pick her up to comfort her or ask her if she was okay. She just complained to the camera how loud Alexis is when she cries. Just not the kind of parenting style that I personally agree with, and why I don't think Kate is the supermom that other people do.
We all have our opinions - strongly held ones apparently - but, what we *think* is really irrelevant (a point I wish the folks on the other board would understand). We (on this board and other Gosselin related boards)are not doing anything "grand" here. We are posting on a message board about a reality TV show.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I sometimes feel compelled to defend the Gosselins when I think they are really being unfairly attacked out of a sense of justice, but I don't kid myself that it's JUSTICE, in some higher moral sense. The unfairness of many of the attacks just gets to me, and so I want to give a different perspective (even though I'm coming to realize it's liking beating one's head against a wall).
But mostly, this is entertainment for me - a diversion, as you say. I don't see what is wrong with that.
Also, I really just don't see that natural mothering instinct in her that most women have. I remember watching Collin throw Alexis onto the cement but Kate didn't pick her up to comfort her or ask her if she was okay. She just complained to the camera how loud Alexis is when she cries. Just not the kind of parenting style that I personally agree with, and why I don't think Kate is the supermom that other people do.
Can't there be some middle ground between lacking "mothering instinct" and being a "supermom"? I think the former is a rather ugly accusation, and one I don't agree with given how often I've seen her cuddling the kids. The latter is something I hear about a lot more from anti-Gosselin people than pro-Gosselin, oddly enough. Most "pro-Gosselin" people seem perfectly willing to admit that Kate has some issues that affect her performance as a parent, but we just keep getting told how perfect we think Kate is.
I just feel that saying Kate does not have a natural mothering instinct is very harsh. Culturally (and probably even biologically), we place a high value on women being maternal. I think it's okay that there's some variation there, but knowing that Kate wanted to have kids so badly, I wouldn't say she lacks maternal instincts. Rather, I'd suggest that with as many kids as she has, she's gotten somewhat inured to the kids pushing and shoving each other. And Alexis is loud (I hope she never changes!).
Gee anon, can we take it down a notch?
I said she wasn't screaming by my standards, I was giving an opinion, and you are entitled to yours.
I do think, however, that you missed my point. If she didn't care about Collin having his comfort item, would she have bothered to try to remove the gum? Why not just throw it away? She doesn't care about her kid's feelings anyway, right?
I never said I thought Kate was supermom. Ever. She's far from it. I just think it's unfair to say that any mother doesn't love her child, especially based on a 30 second clip of her getting stressed out.
And how do you know how much time she spends on stain removal?
’It felt GREAT to get them out of my system and I don't regret blowing their cover one bit. Shrug. Sorry. What's right is right and I know that I did the right thing by exposing their hypocrisy. If that makes me a witch, so be it. It's all good. My conscious is clear.’
Good for you! I agree with you. What are they discussing over there, their own business? National security? No, they’re collecting information on a family that is not their own. It’s not their business in the first place. It’s gossip; there’s nothing sacred about it.
Apply the same explanation to why Julie decided to come forward. It appears she has gained nothing but contempt here.
Not the same at all, in my mind. Whatever the secret board people are chatting about, it’s not business that belongs to them, it’s about the Gosselins. Julie is a family member who took her dispute outside of the family to absolute strangers. A very mixed group of strangers, with a wide range of motivations and goals. Is everything that’s posted there okay with her? I’ve never seen her object to any of the extremes. Wouldn’t it be a natural thing for her to try and moderate some of the craziness? Say ‘whoa’ to the drive-by’s in her sister’s neighborhood?
’You have the right to your opinions. You don't have the right to not have your opinions questioned. I'm sorry you don't like it, but that's the way it is.’
Hoo...rah. Can’t state strongly enough how much I support this statement. Someone should put it up in bronze over the entrance to the internet.
’Now, not everything is 100% verifiable, but one has to draw the line at what to believe and what not to believe. This is proof enough for me.’
What we’re talking about proving here is basically an opinion about the worth of another human being. I find it kind of sinister. Is that person a good person? Worth liking? Worth loving? As much ‘proof’ as the internet can pile up about one person, Kate Gosselin, there are still, and should be, people who will answer, yes, I like that person, I love that person, with all of her faults. Why are any of us trying to find the ultimate and final judgment on another human being? Isn't 'I like her,' or 'I don't like her,' enough for someone on tv that I've never even met? The internet can pile up a big load of ‘stuff’ about anybody, but I would hate to live in a world where some internet verdict is pronounced about some person, and that’s supposed to be the ‘Truth’.
Fanny said...
"And how do you know how much time she spends on stain removal?"
Good point. We don't know. Despite speculation from those who have no way of knowing other than what they have read on other blogs.
I'm not saying Kate does not sometimes exaggerate or that she handled the situation properly; I just don't like the "jump to conclusions" game. And so we come to:
"What was Kate's reasoning behind throwing away her son's most treasured possession?"
How the heck do we know this was her son's "most treasured possession."???? (Cue to the violin music).
I think Kate isn't the only one guiity of hyperbole.
Well we do know she gets a lot of help with her laundry - it's shown on the show. And I was just speaking about the bear with regard to stain removal. Ninety seconds - tops - to remove the gum from the bear.
I've never said I hate Kate and I don't see where anyone else did (why do people put words in other people's mouths?). And I don't think that saying she lacks mothering instinct is unduly harsh. Saying she's a horrible abusive mother is harsh. I'm just saying (and this is my opinion so don't jump all over me) that I don't see her hugging the children or comforting them very often, even when they are ill, and that sort of empathy is something I associate with motherly instinct. And I don't care how many children she has, that's no excuse (again, IMO). Having said that, I admit that I don't have enough insight into their household to know this for sure. I'm just saying that my opinion is based on what I've seen from the show. And I'm allowed to have an opinion on Kate because Jon and Kate decide to display their lives on TV in exchange for money and the potential adverse effects that may have on their children. Therefore they open themselves up to the consequences of that (the children do not however and should never have negative things written about them).
And for someone that just started looking at the various Jon and Kate sights in the last week, pro-Kate people are just as prone to personal attacks as anti-Kate people. One group is no better than the other (as I'm noticing from having people put words in my mouth).
Sorry - to clarify - I was told I said in my post that Kate doesn't love her child (not that I hate her).
I'm sorry anon, you didn't say anything about kate's love for her children, I think I've just seen too many comments using "gum-gate" to make that point.
I tend to get defensive when I feel like I'm being interrogated.
I'm just sayin.....
I see Kate hug her kids all the time. Then I see the haters criticize the way she has hugged her kids and insist that the child in question is afraid of her and that she is only doing it for "damage control".
I am not going to get into the "who is more prone to personal attacks" question again, but I will say unequivocally that I am better than people who stalk and harrass strangers. I'm just typing words on a blog. I'm not calling county records offices trying to find out where the Gosselins are building their new home. I'm not contacting the businesses that advertise on anti-Gosselin blogs and haranguing the person who picks up the phone, trying to get information about the blog owner's identity. I'm not going on anti-Gosselin blogs and telling lies to make the Gosselins look good (not that they'd get posted, anyway). Damn straight I am better than those people.
Well we do know she gets a lot of help with her laundry - it's shown on the show.
Who cares? I love that this point is featured as part of the J & K conspiracy..they're getting *gasp* help! So because they're getting help, they no longer have any responsibility, right? And she NEVER does laundry, or any other household chore. Even if they had a maid service that came in 2 times a week, just a day with 8 children, 6 of whom are pre-schoolers will require cleaning multiple times per day.
'm just saying (and this is my opinion so don't jump all over me) that I don't see her hugging the children or comforting them very often, even when they are ill, and that sort of empathy is something I associate with motherly instinct
I'm sorry, are we watching the same show? IMO, if anything is clear it is the love these parents have for these kids.
No, you are not saying she's "abusive" but you might as well be if you state that she lacks motherly instinct. If this is truly the opinion you hold (and confidentiality wasn't an issue) then I would love to take you on my job one day and introduce you to some women who actually do lack maternal instincts.
I do think Kate's reaction to the gum was ridiculous. I'd venture to say she over-reacted (IMO). Ummm, how many of us have not over reacted to something? No that doesn't excuse bad behavior but it explains on it....Kate is *gasp* a human being!!!! She's not perfect. But yet, somehow, because she supposedly has help in the home, people think she should always have a smile on her face, never be tired, never yell at the kids or Jon and never complain about anything...
Please!
Oh, and one more thing I've never raised my voice that high in my entire life
If that's true (and I'll take your word on it), that makes you the exception, not the rule.
I completely apologize Fanny if you felt as though you were being interrogated, because that was honestly not my intention. Of course I believe everyone is completely entitled to their opinion.
Maybe some insight as to why people are so hung up on 'gumgate'. That was the episode that actually drove me to search for Jon and Kate on the internet. Before that, I had seen things that I really hadn't agreed with but nothing that completely mortified me. Before that, I was uncomfortable with how they introduced their children in the opening of the show (is 'free-spirited, wild and controller' the nicest thing you can think of to describe your children - how about something like intelligent, adventurous, loves animals - more in line with the descriptions of the other children), giving your kids time outs for absolutely no reason and with no explanation (or making your one child that just got shoved hug the child that just hurt him or her), and not allowing your children to have fun in grass or dirt because being clean and avoiding stain removal is a much more important priority. But the gum incident was so over the line (IMO) that I was thinking, wow, why did she sign up for children (especially knowing that she would have multiples), when she so clearly doesn't want to deal with any of the harder parts of motherhood? She's organized yes, but do you really think she and her kids are going to look back and say, oh thank goodness I didn't have fun that day and stayed clean instead. That's why I am so surprised when people write in to Kate for tips on motherhood. Being an organized and anal mother myself, Kate is an example of what I don't aspire to be as a mother.
Does that mean that I am a 'hater' Gunevere? Again, I really enjoy having words put in my mouth. First of all, I don't hate anyone, let alone someone I don't know. All I said is that I don't see her hug her kids that often - not that she only does it for 'damage control'. I have no doubt there are some 'anti-Kate' people that have went way over the line, and have been on the GWOP blog once, where yes, I saw some people pick apart every single thing Kate does (which is ridiculous), however, there seems to be plenty of reasonable people there as well. I'm just saying there are extremes on both sides of the issue. This is the only blog I've written on and in the three posts I've written I've had words put in my mouth every single time. Which is why this will be my last post. It's annoying.
One more thing that I see from the pro-Kate people that is so inconsistent. I see that people say, 'omg, give her a break, she's got eight kids'. Then when the argument comes back that she gets tons and tons of help (not just one or two times a week), the response is 'of course she gets help, she has eight kids'. You can't have it both ways. You can't excuse her constant stress with the children when you know she has someone there helping her(including Jon who is home full time - what most women wouldn't give just to have an adult to vent to).
Finally, I have been around lots of children with FAS and other issues, nomoredrama, and so don't assume I have no experience with abuse. And again, I think abuse and lacking motherly instinct are COMPLETELY different, or else I would never had said that (you are entitled to think they are the same). I believe Kate does love her children very much, but needs some help dealing with her issues. And if she doesn't like being criticized, get off television!
Given that anonymous 9:19 is not coming back here I guess I won't be able to ask her for clarification on this statement:
Giving your kids time outs for absolutely no reason?
I wonder if there were specific incidents that she was talking about?
Or this statement:
(or making your one child that just got shoved hug the child that just hurt him or her)
I don't see those in the same way although I admit that I don't watch the show as intently as some. I've seen Kate tell the child who hit to give the child they hit a hug and to "say you're sorry."
We used to do that with our older son who was actually quite a hitter "back in the day" except would make him give a "soft touch" on the back.
Anon, don't feel bad, I think we're all guilty of comments like that from time to time. I know I am;-)
I get stressed and I don't have 8 kids. The fact that she has help doesn't factor in to my opinion of her. I feel like some are obsessed with what they have, and wouldn't have a problem with them otherwise.
Would anyone care that Kate acts like an ass if she didn't have all that help or all the free stuff she gets? I guess then she would have right to "plead 8". The rationale seems to be that with all those extra she has no reason to be stressed. I have a problem with that. If I had all the money in the world, I don't think the stress I can thank my kids for would be any less.
I don't worry so much about buying groceries or keeping the lights on. I worry about them getting sick, or hurt. I worry that maybe they aren't developing the way they should. When my youngest gets in one of his moods and doesn't want me to hold him, I worry that he's mad at me. He's 2.
Since becoming a parent I've found myself worrying about the most irrational things.
My point is, I don't think its right to assume that because she may not have the finacial worries, that her life is carefree and she shouldn't be excused from the meltdowns that all of us as parents have had at one time or another.
I hope you'll come back, anon. Differing opinions are what seperate us from them.
What the heck is wrong with that??
or making your one child that just got shoved hug the child that just hurt him or her
Fanny,
You articulated that very well. I think that help with cooking or laundry would lessen some stress but it wouldn't eliminate it.
Anonymous 3:14,
I don't understand it at all.
I don't really understand the whole "pleading 8" thing. If I knew a blind person who was a thief, I wouldn't say "Well, he's blind, so I give him a pass." (Note: I am not equating having 8 children to having a disability.) When I first heard that expression, I thought "pleading 8" referred to making excuses for trivial things, like "The kitchen's not clean, but I plead 8." I don't think the number of children one has is an excuse for rudeness or other unsavory behaviors. In a way, that phrase seems insulting to me because (IMO) it implies that J&K aren't capable of managing their family, and comes off as patronizing.
I agree with what you say BigSis88 but I would like to mention that it is a lot different having six of your 8 being the same age than just having 8 kids. I grew up in a time when most families were large and 8 children was the average. The older kids always helped with the younger ones. I do believe this family is not able to take advantage of that. Can you give an example when these parents have used the pleading 8 as an excuse for rudeness or other unsavory behavior. I am new to watching the show and have seem most of the repeats. I have seen Kate rude but I don't know if i have seen her excuse it for having 8 children. I could have missed it because I don't watch closely for those things.
I do think that having 8 kids who are all around the same age is a reason for the level of noise that happens in the family.
Growing up, our family was large. 8 kids of which two were twins. The level of noise was incredible at times.
As far as hitting goes, my oldest son was quite a hitter when he was a toddler. If I remember correctly it was curbed not "cured" when he was 4.
Interestingly our pediatrician told us that kids who have some language delay tend to hit or display other forms of physical aggression to communicate.
(Note: He is a very nice and well-mannered boy now. Thank you very much.)
But those toddler and pre-school years were hell. He would hit someone to get a toy. The poor little kid would drop their toy and clutch the hurt body part. My son would grab the toy and run. I'd hear a little one crying and think ... "Oh no. Who did he hit?" Time outs would be given and the toy would be return to the hurt child. He would be required to apologize and find something else to play with.
As a twin myself, I used to think ... "I can't imagine having two of him right now."
So can you imagine have a few of them? This is where I think that there is some merit to the position ..."of course they are under stress they have 8 kids."
I can't tell you the level of judgemental-ness that I received because of this. This stage went on from about the time he was 2 and started being curbed around 4. Some mothers would say that I gave him time outs for everything. Other mothers were angry (and rightly so) when their child had been hit more than once.
Most of all, I felt like it was "damned if I do and damned if I don't."
The "I plead 8" thing has been used by her defenders as an excuse for her to be rude. I think it has to do with the fact that we've all been frazzled by kids, or work, or just life in general, and some tend to get snappy during stressful times. I'm so guilty of this that it is ridiculous.
Kate has said it on the show before but I think it was in a different context.
As far as hitting goes, my oldest son was quite a hitter when he was a toddler. If I remember correctly it was curbed not "cured" when he was 4.
Heh. It could be worse. I was a biter, which my sister never lets me forget, more than 30 years later.
I will just clarify for anon that I only use "hater" in reference to people who only watch the show to rip on J&K. If that's not you, then I don't include you in that definition. Please don't assume that everything everyone says in a post (even if that post is in response to yours) relates directly to you. I mentioned the hugging criticism specifically because in the cupcake episode, Kate hugged Joel and got nothing but crap for it. Because even when Kate does something good, the haters make it into something bad.
I think the only time I've brought up "she has 8 kids!" is in response to anti-Gosselin posters who want to belittle Kate's efforts, insist that she's lazy, or give her "tips" on how to be more organized. Having 8 kids (and six the same age) isn't a "Get out of jail free" card, but at the same time, I don't think anyone here can claim that they know what it's like, so to blithely dismiss the difficulties strikes me as unkind and unfair.
Anon 8:22,
Like Fanny said, I was talking about "supporters" of J&K who "plead 8" whenever Kate is rude, snippy, etc. It comes off to me as a backhanded compliment, like "You're not that fat, considering you had 8 kids." Occasionally I will run across posters (not really on this site) who always counters a "negative" opinion of J&K with "Well, YOU don't know what it's like with 8 kids, blah, blah, blah..." and it makes me wonder (half-jokingly) if they would "plead 8" if J&K robbed banks.
Anon,
I am very sorry that you were offended by my post. I tend to argue passionately...it's my personality.
I also did not mean to imply that you had no experience with abuse. I was actually referring to your comment about her having no maternal instincts. I thought I was clear that I understood that you did not think the children were being abused.
I know perspective makes things different. I literally have had parents drop their children off in psych hospitals, change their phone number and refuse to have any more involvement with the child. I've met parents who LITERALLY cannot... I mean, CANNOT, with all of the help and treatment they are given spend one on one time with their child, say I love you, or even smile at their child. So, because of the things I've seen (and I guess experience shapes your view), Kate being anal and even somewhat obnoxious about order does not, in my mind, mean she lacks maternal instincts.
Further, my point about the help was that others act as if it's some conspiracy that she has help. All I was saying is that she has the right to be stressed, whether she has help or not. While I'm not diagnosing Kate, my opinion of what i see is a very anxious individual. From my clinical experience with those who are anxious (not diagnosing Kate, just conjecturing), I've found that their lives could be in perfect harmony and they'd still be anxious and stressed, waiting for the other shoe to drop.
I really hope you do come back...you can't have a discussion without dissenting points of view. Your view is welcome here. I truly apologize if I made you feel otherwise.
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