Wednesday, November 12, 2008

Sound Off



Why do you watch Jon and Kate Plus 8? Love it or hate it, what keeps you coming back every week?

On another blog I saw someone post this question:

"Perhaps some of the Kate sheeple could enlighten us as to purpose of this show now."

So for those of you that catch yourselves baaing once an awhile and a yearning for a good wool winter coat, maybe you would like to take a stab at explaining what you feel the purpose of the show is.

170 comments:

Mom to 1 said...

I watch because all the kids are precious and adorable and I love watching them grow up.
In terms of the free perks, the kids are getting opportunities that I never received when growing up, so why would I care how they get them? I am the mother of a seven year old daughter. My husband and I both work full time so we can pay the mortgage, get groceries, clothes, etc. My daughter is happy and healthy. Who could want more? The Gosselin kids are happy and healthy. Who am I to complain about their free perks?
I don't always agree with Kate. But, I always don't always agree with how my best friends, my SIL, or how my mother raises their kids. Would I criticize them to other people (or to their face)? Never in a million years. Because, I am not perfect. So, I enjoy Jon and Kate + 8 with all of their imperfections and if that makes me a "sheeple" BAAAAA!

kimber said...

Why does there have to be a "purpose" for this show? It's entertaining, it's fun, it's a glimpse into the life of a family with two sets of multiples. When I found out this show existed I didn't think, "oh, good, now I'll be able to watch a show about a family raising twins and sextuplets so that when I have my twins and sextuplets I'll know what to do."

The show is on the learning channel, and the audience gets to discover how this very unique family deals with raising their children, but I don't watch it to learn anything, I don't watch it because I think Jon and Kate or the kids are going to teach me anything, I watch it because it's fun and funny and entertaining and I like the people, which is the same reason I watch any show that I watch.

Kikibee said...

I wasn't aware that tv shows were required to have a particular purpose. I watch because the kids are cute and I enjoy watching with my daughter.

I can't imagine watching a show that I dislike, featuring people I can't stand, all the while taking notes on the sponsors so I can write to tell them how much I disapprove of the show. And then writing the millionth post about "greedy grasping disgusting KON". (And why is it always capitalized like that?)

I think it's pretty funny that not only have they been unsuccessful in getting the Gs off the air, now the Hayes family has signed up for a show. Can't wait to see how it all plays out.

Kelley said...

I watch the show for the same reason I watch Bones, House and the Food Network. Because it's FUN! I don't really care if JOn and Kate are perfect parents, christian examples, or what ever else. I think they're doing their thing and getting paid to do it. I wish I could get TLC to film me sitting on my couch in my sweats and sniffling right now and then pay me. Seriously, TLC...come on in! I could use the cash!

Ceecee said...

Not being a sheeple (I am not a fan of Kate) maybe I shouldn't be answering the question but I think those kids are great and I enjoy watching them grow and seeing the changes in them over time.

Guinevere said...

I watch the show for its entertainment value. I find the family as a whole interesting and the kids adorable.

Maybe it's because I started watching later than some, but I didn't come to the show with a preconceived notion that it was supposed to be about anything, except about the Gosselin family and their daily lives.

Because of that, I find myself puzzled at the vehemence of some posters who seem to feel betrayed that the show is not about "normal" people any more. I mean, they had sextuplets and are on tv, so the Gosselins were never "normal". But some people seem very invested in the idea of the family as middle class or lower middle class, and I just don't understand why they CARE so much. I understand (even if I don't agree) with concerns about child exploitation. But the anger over how the family isn't "relatable" is a mystery to me. I've said it before, but if that were an issue for me, I'd just stop watching - I wouldn't feel the need to express my disappointment or anger or sense of betrayal.

I'm not trying to be critical here; it really is just a strange phenomenon to me.

amyf said...

Well, this has to be the most photogenic family in the world. I dislike Kate more and more with each episode, but I do really like seeing how the kids are growing up and becoming more articulate. And I'm not even a kid person (give me cats any day)! That being said, I do believe the kids (especially the twins) would be better off if the filming stopped - although I *would* like to see something like an annual update.

rosey in washington said...

Guinevere said

"But the anger over how the family isn't "relatable" is a mystery to me."

-----------

The reason that I am upset that the family isn't relatable is because they tell people that is their REASON for being on the air...to help people by letting them into their lives. And to be honest, I used to REALLY like the show when they were normal, when they lived day to day lives and went through the financial and family struggles just like everyone else (just with the challenge of having 8 kids). But now, they are not at all relatable in my opinion. All they do mostly is travel to awesome places and stay in high-end resorts for free in order to promote the resorts they are staying in.

No middle class family can relate to them anymore, they have changed...and the only reason it bugs me is because they claim to just be a "normal" family just with more children.

SamanthaNC said...

The reason that I am upset that the family isn't relatable is because they tell people that is their REASON for being on the air...to help people by letting them into their lives. And to be honest, I used to REALLY like the show when they were normal, when they lived day to day lives and went through the financial and family struggles just like everyone else (just with the challenge of having 8 kids).


I cannot understand this statement bc the reason you find them unrelatable is based on their financial status- which changed bc of all of us including you watching the show, hence it became a very popular money maker for tlc, and as a result the g's make more money. . . . did you expect them to turn the exta income down? "No thanks tlc! I know we're one of your most popular shows but we dont want to become unrelatable no matter how much it will benefit our family, so you just pay us the bare minimum and keep your money." I don't think so!

Nina Bell said...

I just enjoy the show. The kids are cute and getting more adorable by the day. I was actually initially attracted by the way Jon and Kate let all their faults hang out there. But I do think it is seeing the kids grow up that keeps me coming back.

The purpose of the show is entertainment. What other purpose could there be? I could care less what Jon and Kate's purpose for doing the show was. That does not affect my reason for watching it.

marci said...

Well, since this question was "brought over" here I'll answer...it's entertainment, plain and simple. If it wasn't entertaining it wouldn't be doing as well as it is and TLC wouldn't be repeating the format (Duggars, Hayes).

I guess TLC is REALLY worried about all this "exploitation" talk, huh? ;)

I think the original poster of this question "over there" wasn't asking for some kind of intelligent response, however. I don't think they give anyone who doesn't agree with them any credit for intelligence, i.e. "sheeple".

At this point I could care less about trying to impress on anyone my reasons for watching this show....I like it...others don't.

The show I like is still on the air and thriving, and more of the same format are being made for my future entertainment despite redundant snarkiness and misguided letter writing.

Game over.

GLO said...

I watch the show because I enjoy the children and the interaction between Jon and Kate, even though they are not perfect and don't treat each other the as well as they should sometimes. I find them both to be quite humorous at times, and I find it to be refreshing that they do not put on this perfect persona for the world to view, unlike others in the public spotlight (e.g. Duggars).

The purpose of this show is the same as any other show on T.V. and that is entertainment, plain and simple. Many of the posters at GWOP must find watching the show and then nitpicking and pearl clutching over it entertaining, since they spend so much time doing it, so the show is serving it's purpose.

Tricia said...

Why does there have to be a purpose for the show? I watch The Hills, and I'm aware of no specific purpose for that show.

It entertains, it's the most watched show on TLC, it makes money, plain and simple.

And the reason that it's different from the Roloffs, the Hayes, the Duggars, is because no one wants to watch the same show over and over. They edit each show differently so people are watching different things.

Lizabeth said...

Tricia, I love The Hills!

As for why I watch, I think there are three main reasons...

1) I enjoy watching the kids grow-- seeing the specials in the past (yes, when Kate was working 12 hour shifts as a nurse and Jon worked 50ish hour weeks) gave me a glimpse into a crazy world I do not think I will ever experience. I love how funny and sweet the kids can be, and appreciate that while Jon and Kate may not do things the way *I* would, they must be doing something right to have kids that are as generally well behaved and charming.

2) I love reality TV in general for the psychological, 'people watching' reasons... there is something intriguing to me about seeing a slice of a persons life.

3) Escapism-- like some have said in the past, its almost a relaxing experience seeing the chaos then turning off my TV to a quiet house. I enjoy the fact that we can see these kids as they grow, then shut off the TV and get back to our lives. Its kinda like I am with my nephew-- I love him, spend tons of time with him and enjoy listening to his 13 month old gibberish, then I hand him back over to my brother and sister in law and get back by my actual life.

Daisy said...

I agree with the entertainment factor. My daughter and I watch together so it's something that keeps us bonded. It's something for us to look forward to on Monday's.

Samantha and Marci, love your sense of humor!

Sarah said...

Why can't people just be happy for this family??? I don't understand people!!! The Gosselins been blessed with the opportunity to travel and share their lives with everyone. Just because they have these opportunities doesn't make them unrelateable, they still deall with the same everyday issues any family with children does, their issues are just multiplied. As for all the negative comments, when people have to criticize a family for having opportunities, it becomes envy and the root of envy is JEALOUSY. Be happy for other people for goodness sake!!!

SamanthaNC said...

Tricia and lizabeth-

I love The Hills too.... my husband makes fun of me for watching lol.

I just immediatley loved J&K, the kids are precious, I relate to their relationship, I don't like the way Kate talks to Jon (frequently) but I do relate to their back and forth bickering. They interact they way a typical family does I think, life isn't all sunshine and roses but they love each other. This sounds corny but the Gosselins have become so familiar to me that I enjoy having it on in the background of whatever I'm doing. As far as a purpose it's the same with any show- it's entertaining!

iluvobx said...

SamanthaNC said...
The reason that I am upset that the family isn't relatable is because they tell people that is their REASON for being on the air...to help people by letting them into their lives. And to be honest, I used to REALLY like the show when they were normal, when they lived day to day lives and went through the financial and family struggles just like everyone else (just with the challenge of having 8 kids).


I cannot understand this statement bc the reason you find them unrelatable is based on their financial status- which changed bc of all of us including you watching the show, hence it became a very popular money maker for tlc, and as a result the g's make more money. . . . did you expect them to turn the exta income down? "No thanks tlc! I know we're one of your most popular shows but we dont want to become unrelatable no matter how much it will benefit our family, so you just pay us the bare minimum and keep your money." I don't think so!

--------
SamanthaNC, I understand the point that Rosey was making just fine. This show has changed drastically since it started. The children do not have friends. You can argue that we ONLY see 22 minutes per week but they are filmed much more than that. If they had friends, we would see them playing with the tups and most of all, the children would mention their friends name.
The show has changed. They are right, IF it were not for the endless trips that the average American family couldn't afford, what would the show be about? The tups are still very cute and I really enjoyed seeing Mady smile. In the end, it will be the children that will suffer.

I have come to admire the Duggars and what they stand for. They are very straight forward with their views but they biggest thing....they are tolerate of different views. They have friends, they have real jobs! They are debt free and they built their own house and NOT once did they ask the state of Arkansas to help. Maybe Kate and family need to go visit the Duggars and LEARN from them. The Duggars have the room as they had the Bates' family visit. That would be very interesting.

The show is no longer what it was and needs to be moved to the Travel Channel and not on TLC. JMO
As for it being the ost popular show on TLC, please check the ratings. They have been declining in recent weeks. As for me watching it, it depends if there is another show on or not. Plus the tups are still adorable.

marci said...

Samantha, Tricia, lisbeth,

Okay...confession time...I am 41 and have watched MTV since its inception. That means I've been watching the Real World and it's spin offs, including Laguna Beach and The Hills, for over 20 years now!!!!

My hubby keeps saying, "Aren't you too old for MTV?" And I'm like, "Uh, no. Speak for yourself."

Besides, it's a good way to keep on top of what my son will be talking about in the next few years.

Sure, it gets trashy, but I'm loyal to MTV.



Daisy,

Thanks for your kind thoughts...and be sure and join the fun!

SamanthaNC said...

iluvobx-

You liked it in the beginning. Okay, so to be clear then you feel that they should turn down the opportunities that tlc has offered them and their children? That makes no sense. I cant help but feel that this all comes back to jealousy, again just my opinion. It is not in any way reasonable to expect that their lives wouldnt change as the show gained popularity. If you cant "relate" to them fine, but why complain about it?

marci said...

Samantha,

I agree with you. There's plenty of stuff I don't relate to on television. That's the stuff I don't watch, know nothing about, and have no opinion to share beyond pressing the channel changing button on my remote.

I'm really over the posters who say they can't "relate" to the Gosselins now (or never could) but keep watching and keep complaining. They obviously find being annoyed a form of entertainment, otherwise why would they continue to watch and then go on line and wallow in their misery with other like-minded masochists?

MonicaW42 said...

Marci, you can never be to old for MTV :)

About the show: I watch it to see the kids. It is a show.

I disagree with an earlier comment about the kids having "no" friends. No one can say that. Unless you are directly in their lives you can't say that for sure. Just because friends are not filmed does not mean they do not have any. Maybe some parents will not allow their children on camera or it could be a contractual issue with show itself. There is to much that can be left open to speculation.

And for all the people that get jealous over the perks they get, I feel for them when the kids all turn driving age at the same time!!! I would hate that insurance bill.

SamanthaNC said...

Marci-

Glad I'm not the only one that that finds the whole thing a bit strange ;)

MommyZinger said...

I watch the show because:

I am a mom of three young children and can relate a little. Watching the show makes my life seem easy peasy. And my oldest is the same age as the sextuplets.

Jon and Kate bickering is entertaining.

The kids are cute.

I wish I had never gone to "that site" because now my mind is poisoned. I watch the show with hater glasses on and know what they will complain about. I hate to say it but that may be another reason I watch the show - to see what the anti-G's will bitch about.

scarfoot said...

If I wanted to watch things that relate to my life, I'd be kind of bored! Ha!

I watch because the children are just so darn cute. They have cute personalities. After a long day, an episode full of toddler chatter, big grins, and cute play makes my day brighter.

I really am getting to the point that I could care less about Jon and Kate. I don't watch because of them. I don't really care if they are rich or not. If I'm going to worry about people relating to people, I guess I need to lose some of my friends - I have a few friends that I have little to nothing in common with. It makes life more interesting. Do we have to make everything all about ourselves?

I'm no "sheeple," I don't see them as perfect. But to the naysayers, I say BAH.

Jamie said...

I started watching this show because at that time i just had my 1 and only daughter. I had them 'brand new mom worries' I thought to myself "If this woman can handle 8 everyday I should have no problem taking care 1. As corney as it sounds I really watched for the inspiration and encouragement. Now I watch because the kids are so freakin cute!! *Alexis and Leah are my favorites.* I enjoy watching them grow up and change every week. Also I REALLY am hoping after they do decide to end the show they do a yearly update til they are 18. I would have no problem watching this family for the next 13 years.

nc resident said...

The strangest phenomenon is see are the great lengths the people that dislike Kate go to, in some blogs. The recaps I've seen are not appropriate and some of the threads and comments are not much better. It seems as though you either hate Kate or love her. Kate being part of the show seems to attract the most attention at times. The kids however are extremely cute and always have been. There are a few middle road viewers, IMO.
Equally strange is the people who love her and how most negative comments regarding her, even if they are within reason are met with comments of being jealous or a hater.
I started out liking the show alot. Kates treatment of Jon was offensive to me, but, she is not my wife. TLC however, claims that this interaction is the part of the appeal of the show. For the average viewer it is what it is, the trips however seem to send it over the top for alot of people. They are not alone on the trips however. The Roloff's did alot these things (trips)IE RV trip, Bahamas, as well, including a pool installation show. You can see that pool company advertised on their personal website. Even a large home remodel, I think alot of negative comments over the trips and remodel started the season for them with Matt going to Iraq, great show btw. Less focus on the remodel. So I realize TLC=viewers=ratings=promotional spots=perks=sales to companies.
My issue with them is not over what they have financially, but how they have got it, or how they hide it. The coupon show with the kids in bed, a friend comes over to watch them, Kate spends 250, usually only 150. Okay then their website shows where Giant Foods donated $5000 in food, a parking space, $5000 in Gerber Baby Food.
Laundry, smoke and mirrors again. She does it puts it in a basket, another folds it, someone else irons it, yet another puts it away. Washing powders gratis as well. I could exhaust myself with typing alot of the other inconsistancies.
Finally, I do not feel they schemed or planned to have the sextuplets. I do feel after they were born the wheels began to turn on making money off of this. They have been less than honest regarding finances to churches and people they took donations from. Most of these people never receive any thanks on the show, kinda strange if the show depicts their life. The premise IMO is how anyone or everyone can add to the Gosselin treasury. I do not think if anyone one of us met Jon and Kate on the street they would be friendly or someone that you would identify with.
Jon and Kate say the show is their life and their life is the show, maybe thats the premise.

lulubae said...

I posted this on another thread a while back but I felt it appropriate for this one.

You know, if people are so upset that the Gosselins are no longer "relatable" because they have more money or live in a bigger house, then I guess they don't watch:

1. The Duggars show - I guess you can't relate unless you have 17 or 18 kids and a huge house with 8 washers and driers.

2. Little People Big World - you can't relate because you are not yourself a little person with challenges associated to that, live in a big house with many acres of land.

3. Any celebrity reality show - you can't relate because you yourself are not a celebrity, do not live in a mansion, get photographed everywhere you go, get fancy clothes, etc. etc.

4. Any type of documentary programming - because you can't relate to living in the wild, other country, don't have an alternative lifestyle, etc.

It's just ridiculous really. I don't relate to the Gosselins at all. I'm not Anglo or Asian, don't have 8 kids (actually don't have ANY children), live in an apt. in front of the beach (so no cold weather for me), I have a dog, I hold a doctorate degree. And yet, I watch the show. It is interesting to me.

If relatability is your reason for tuning in to a show, then I guess you must not watch a lot of tv.
I watch this show cause its fun. I don't need to defend it any more than that. Usually when I something is on the tv that I don't like, I just change the channel. Simple as that.

FIONA said...

I love it as much as I hate it!

I love watching the kids interact, grow up. That was the draw for me.

It is fun to watch knowing what the GWoPPers are going to freak on.

Jon and Kate, in my opinion are slugs, and I think the network makes sure that we see that. Some may call it editing, but I truly think Jon and Kate are about as unsophisticated and classless as they come.

That being said, I never miss a show.

FIONA said...

The reason that I am upset that the family isn't relatable is because they tell people that is their REASON for being on the air...to help people by letting them into their lives. And to be honest, I used to REALLY like the show when they were normal, when they lived day to day lives and went through the financial and family struggles just like everyone else (just with the challenge of having 8 kids).


I cannot understand this statement bc the reason you find them unrelatable is based on their financial status- which changed bc of all of us including you watching the show, hence it became a very popular money maker for tlc, and as a result the g's make more money. . .


----

I understand what this poster is saying...yes, the G's have more money, but they CHOSE to change. The premise of the show could still be there. Raising the kids at home, juggling soccer and ballet lessons etc. The G's made themselves unrealateable.

FIONA said...

You liked it in the beginning. Okay, so to be clear then you feel that they should turn down the opportunities that tlc has offered them and their children? That makes no sense. I cant help but feel that this all comes back to jealousy, again just my opinion. It is not in any way reasonable to expect that their lives wouldnt change as the show gained popularity. If you cant "relate" to them fine, but why complain about it?

November 13, 2008 7:28 AM

----
Not all opportunities are good ones.

SamanthaNC said...

Not all opportunities are good ones.

That's true. However, I don't feel that they should be condemned for having a bigger house (which = more space for the kids) or taking these amazing trips (which = awesome experiences and memories for the kids) Nor for having financial security and getting to stay home with the children- Those are the opportunities I was speaking of.

FIONA said...

I think for me is the gluttonous factor that the G's have embraced ever so well.

They just haven't handled it well IMO.

nc resident said...

Bigger homes can be found far less than the 1.3 million listing price of the "home" if thats it. Bigger home doesn't need to have acreage and a horse barn, or a spot for the film crew. Memories, I question how much the little ones will remember when they are 30, don't need to be made in exotic vacation spots. Many of mine as a young boy were of a rusted coffee can, dirt, hand dug worms and fishing in an old farm pond. I hope they do remember, since that justifies the trips according to J&K. Not to be argumentative the last statement shows the premise of the show, maybe, financial security. Wonder what these young ones will do when and if they have to work. What lessons will stay at home parents show them about working for a living.

Nina Bell said...

Bigger homes can be found far less than the 1.3 million listing price of the "home" if thats it. Bigger home doesn't need to have acreage and a horse barn, or a spot for the film crew.

I am sorry, I really don't understand what you are getting at here. Are they to buy a house that fits our needs or our expectations of what they should live in?

Did anyone help you choose your current home?

LoriNJ1970 said...

I stopped watching the show quite a few months ago. But, after reading the comments about the last episode I'm kind of curious.

When I did watch I watched for the kids. I found Kate's sarcastic humor amusing. This is the first couple years. I don't know exactly when but something changed about the show. I'm not talking their nice vacations or freebies. Anyway, I found other things to do on Mondays at 8 pm.

lulubae said...

ncresident:

Doesn't Oprah have like 17 houses? She's not married, doesn't have any children, so why don't people harp on her? Where people choose to live is their business, the same way it is your business where you live. In the end, why do you watch then? If you don't like the home, don't like the trips, the clothes, the cameras? I just don't understand! You watch to torture yourself or to torture others?

I'm aware this may come across as confrontational or harsh but I just CANNOT see myself telling anyone whether or not the house they purchased is appropriate by MY standards. That's ridiculous.

MoreCowbell said...

For the same reason I watch anything else. I LIKE IT. Since when should anyone have to justify WHY they enjoy a particular television show to a bunch of petty, bitter, condescending trolls?

Or maybe I should word it this way, "Perhaps some of the Kate Haters could enlighten us as to the purpose of GWoP's existence, now." I mean, it's obvious the show isn't going anywhere, so their supposed "mission" is falling flat on its face. In fact, Monday nights have now been christened "Big Family Night" on TLC with the Roloffs, Gosselins, Duggars and the new family (Hayes?) joining the crowd. Oh, and claims of "advocacy" is not the correct answer to my question unless they are also stalking and harassing the other TLC families who are also "pimping their kids for money." Anyone seen the Roloff house lately? That "renovation" is turning their home into a McMansion. And why not? It's their money.

You know what? Whoever posted that original question can bite me. Period. No one should have to justify their lives to the likes of GWoP.

SamanthaNC said...

I feel like I'm going in circles here but since I'm home sick, why not?

Why in the world do they need to "justify" these trips? Or there home? They don't! You act as if these things are sinful. I'm glad that simple things brought you joy as a child, simple things bring them joy too and I'm glad- but whether the tups remember disney or Hawaii or not doesn't matter- They had fun at the time. We took our daughter who was 4 then to Disney last summer. Will she remember? Maybe, maybe not. But she had a blast!

I'm not trying to be rude but the cost of their home or their acreage and barn is no business of mine or yours and they dont have to settle for what's "good enough" by your standards.

iluvobx said...

SamanthaNC said...
iluvobx-

You liked it in the beginning. Okay, so to be clear then you feel that they should turn down the opportunities that tlc has offered them and their children? That makes no sense. I cant help but feel that this all comes back to jealousy, again just my opinion. It is not in any way reasonable to expect that their lives wouldnt change as the show gained popularity. If you cant "relate" to them fine, but why complain about it?
----
SamanthaNC, please read what I wrote.

I do not believe I complained about them. What I believe is that due to TLC and others, the Gosselins are now something that they were not before. That is not jealousy..that is just a FACT. I have stated in the past that I would not turn down a free vacation but I would not beg for it or feel I was entitled to it.

Children DO mention friends. They talk about them period. They play with them, they ask IF they can come over, etc. Children will share toys better, etc, when they have friends over or they visit a friends home. J&K themselves have mentioned about the tups NOT being around children their own age as they don't need others as they have each other. Listen to the episode about the first day of pre-school.

Decision made today make an impact on the future...good, bad or otherwise. J&K have made the decision to make their livihood off of their children. They have said that themselves.

Jealous? No way! I am very happy with my lot in life. Thank you. The best place I have ever been was Bora Bora. I have been 5 times to Hawaii, I have visited Canada, Fuji and 26 other states including Alaska. Lived in D.C and lived in a foreign country....so what should I be jealous about?

BTW, I do not hate Kate nor Jon. I don't always agree with what Kate does but that is her decision and her family. I just stated a fact: the show has changed drastically since it started.

As for relating to them, I have never had anything in common with J&K but I enjoyed the earlier shows where they were trying to cope with all the major changes in their life.

Nina Bell said...

Morecowbell,

I have certainly missed you. You must come around more often. If I remember right, I think I Love My Kids asked that question. I could be wrong but I don't want to go back and look. And you are right, when I read the post "What is the Premise of the show now?", I though well what is the premise of GWoP?

Also, someone sent me an angry comment last night because I took that question from GWoP. Well the last I looked, it was a public blog.

merryway said...

I didn't start watching the show until early this year. I had been without cable for the last 5 years and was out of the loop on a LOT of stuff. I thought it was a look at the life of a struggling mom. I felt like a lot of mom's I've read who say “I can't hardly manage with x but she does it with eight.” They were doing ordinary everyday things. So I thought the draw was a television support group for moms. I really liked that because most of my friend's children are already grown. I can understand how some don't like it anymore if that's the reason they were watching it. I hate it when the networks do stuff to my favorite shows. The difference is this these are real people not actors.
The last episodes seemed like “the making of celebrities”. Now, they have fully arrived I'm not sure what the premise might be other than seeing the adorable kids enjoy their amazing life. They seem to be a Camelot of a certain group, but I don't know who their biggest audience is. I would think the kids would draw in just about everyone.
I watch because of the kids and all the Kate stuff. I do enjoy the mom moments that I identify with her. I've enjoyed the last shows because of Kate's successes as a woman and a mother. I also watch to keep up with the drama in the blogging world. I would have hated to have not seen some of these scenarios unfold.

Quiltart said...

I have watched from the beginning, mostly because the children are so adorable. Without a doubt, IMHO, the Gosselins are the most photogenic family on TV!

I've watched the attitudes of bloggers change as the family has become more financially secure. Complaining about the fact that both parents are now at home or about the price of their new house should be of no concern to viewers, except to say that this young family has had the good fortune to become financially secure because of the show. As far as I'm concerned, they were handed the chance of a lifetime by TLC and they went with it. More power to them!

This does not mean that J&K don't love their children... It is obvious to me that they do and that the children love them...

IMHO, The people who complain about every little detail of the Gosselin's life are very transparent about covering their jealousy because the Gosselins HAVE made a more financially secure life for themselves.

Why it should matter so much to someone who doesn't even know them, I have not been able to figure out... and I strongly feel that child advocacy has nothing
to do with it....

Even before the current huge remodel of the Roloff's house, they had remodeled their kitchen, put in a swimming pool and done many upgrades on the farm.
The Duggars mega-house was finished with TLC's help and furnished by TLC. No one comments on the multi new washing machines in their laundry room.

Mama Michelle is calm and patient with the children, because her only jurisdiction is to take care of the newest baby. They rest of her children take care of the others and the house.

My point.. and I do have one... is that I watch Jon & Kate because it's entertainment and it's fun to watch their family grow. They have chosen their lifestyle, just as the Roloffs and Duggars have and it's not up to us to condemn them for making their own choices.

MoreCowbell said...

Also, someone sent me an angry comment last night because I took that question from GWoP. Well the last I looked, it was a public blog.

NO DOUBT. Once you post it, it is fodder for public consumption and you have to be able to handle being called out by people that may not agree with you. If you can't hang with the big dogs....

I have certainly missed you. You must come around more often.

Heh. Didn't mean to stay away. I've just been swamped with work. But, I'm still reading! ;)

peanutbutterjellytime said...

My children and I watch the show to see the kids. I have seven children. My youngest set of twin boys are three weeks old, and my oldest daughter is nine. All my in-laws and my family are a big help to me. I don't know what I would do without them. I have a hard time understanding why Kate and Jon don't involve their family. My oldest daughter likes Mady and Cara, but she says that the mom (Kate) is mean to Mady. I don't always agree with the way Kate does things, and I think she should try and find out what is really causing Mady's bad behavior.
I just hope that when the little girls get to be Mady's age, they don't act like her with meltdown's.

Guinevere said...

My oldest daughter likes Mady and Cara, but she says that the mom (Kate) is mean to Mady.

Really? I'm surprised, because whatever Kate's flaws, I think she's unusually patient with Mady and accepting of Mady's moodiness. She seems to understand her or at least accept Mady's personality for what it is, even if she wants her to work on some areas.

FIONA said...

I totally agree NC resident.

peanutbutterjellytime said...

Guinvere,

You wouldn't be surprised if you knew me. I am very laid back and easy going with my children. I am the opposite of Kate. I can see why my daughter says that Kate is mean to Mady. I would handle Mady in a completely different way. But, each to his own. :)

FIONA said...

PBJ time,

It is interesting how children pick up on Kate's abruptness and coldness.

I was watching a webisode the other day at work and a co-worker walked by, set down, and said within 3 minutes, "Gawd she is a bitch"..."what are you watching"

He had never seen or heard of the show. It made me laugh because it wasn't even one of Kate's worst moments.

nc resident said...

Nina, that question might be better asked to the churches that booked them to speak. Collected offerings because they claimed to be in need. Flew them first class and booked them in the best hotels. That has been my theme. I think moderate living is required IF your living comes from donations from others less fortunate, like it did for them. So question, when will we see this house featured on a show? Think they will have a Power Point display at the next church they speak at, showing this new home? Wonder where the film crew stays? Should I have a say in what they buy NO, but I hope we have heard the last of the needy Gosselin story. If this house airs on the TV show I would be willing to bet the ratings would drop. Nina maybe I'm an old goat, contrary at times but I think they moved there to show everyone where they are now. A look at us mentality, bragger rights, back to the same place they began. I do have alot of respect for the people here as both sides are allowed to be posted, and the insults are not.

aap said...

Samanthanc -

taking these amazing trips (which = awesome experiences and memories for the kids)

I think most childhood experts agree that children remember and cherish quality (and I did say quality and not quantity) time with their parents vs. big extravagant trips. Also, if the trips are one after another, the trips no longer become special. Juest because something is offered to you for free doesn't necessarily mean you should take it.

If you consider the complainants some viewers have about the show turning into one big travelogue (which I agreed somewhat about too many trips or "special event days", though I loved the show they did at Legoland), they repeatly say that the show should return to it's roots of essentially showing the parents nurturing the children. I don't understand why that is so wrong?

SamanthaNC said...

Guin-

I agree, I admire how patient Kate is with Mady. I havent seen her treat Mady differently than the other children. If anything she seems like she may be more patient with Mady bc Mady seems to need it.

nc resident said...

Guinevere since Im usually disagreable I had to add this. Your last post was right on I think. Kate tries to give Mady her space and not confront her that might make things worse, birthday episode. I seriously wish the meltdowns were not shown, I said in another thread growing pains.

FIONA said...

I don't call it patience, I call it the path of least resistance.

Up until the Lego epi, we never saw Kate "deal" with Mady.

Guinevere said...

It is interesting how children pick up on Kate's abruptness and coldness.

I was watching a webisode the other day at work and a co-worker walked by, set down, and said within 3 minutes, "Gawd she is a bitch"..."what are you watching"

He had never seen or heard of the show. It made me laugh because it wasn't even one of Kate's worst moments.


I understand that some people have that perception, but it's really not universal. Even if PBJ's daughter doesn't like Kate, that doesn't mean all kids don't. Her own kids seem quite fond of her.

If anything she seems like she may be more patient with Mady bc Mady seems to need it.

Yeah, that's how it seems to me, as well. She accepts Mady the way she is (while of course still trying to instill proper discipline); I think that is the most loving gesture a parent can make.

Nina, that question might be better asked to the churches that booked them to speak. Collected offerings because they claimed to be in need. Flew them first class and booked them in the best hotels. That has been my theme. I think moderate living is required IF your living comes from donations from others less fortunate, like it did for them.

I feel like we're going around and around on this, but: how do you know what hotels the Gosselins were put up in? What class they flew? That all sounds like rumors and hearsay to me, and I don't think it's very responsible to keep spreading it.

And again, the "donations" were apparently in lieu of speaker fees, which appears to be a common practice regardless of the financial status of the speaker. I think you are misrepresenting them to continue to make it sound like the Gosselins were begging for money while living the high life. Anyway, I would guess that a much greater percentage of their "living" comes from the show, rather than any speaker fees they've collected (since I've never believed the $25K figure that has been floated).

I hope we have heard the last of the needy Gosselin story.

The only people I hear bringing up the needy Gosselin story these days is people who dislike the family.

If this house airs on the TV show I would be willing to bet the ratings would drop. Nina maybe I'm an old goat, contrary at times but I think they moved there to show everyone where they are now. A look at us mentality, bragger rights, back to the same place they began.

I just don't know why that would be anyone's interpretation. If someone you know buys a nice car, do you assume they have bought it purely to spite you? With all due respect, when people say things like this is does sound like envy and insecurity to me - "they think they are better than us!" I just don't know how else to interpret such an extreme view of the choices the Gosselins have made.

If you consider the complainants some viewers have about the show turning into one big travelogue (which I agreed somewhat about too many trips or "special event days", though I loved the show they did at Legoland), they repeatly say that the show should return to it's roots of essentially showing the parents nurturing the children. I don't understand why that is so wrong?

I think the show still shows the parents nurturing the children. In any case, I don't believe it's "wrong" to want the show to return to its roots, just unrealistic. It doesn't seem like a right/wrong issue to me. It's an artistic choice, in a sense, and you can like it or not like it, but it seems weird to me to be angry about it. It's sort of like - maybe you really like a particular writer, and he writes mysteries. You really enjoy his mysteries. But then he starts writing sci-fi. You don't like sci-fi. You're not interested in reading these books. So don't. Don't watch J&K+8. I can understand maybe lamenting a little bit a show that you enjoyed and that you no longer enjoy, because it's changed, but anything more than that - anger or framing it as moral issue - I think that points to overinvestment.

aap said...

I like watching all types of reality shows - from Project Runway to Real World/Road Rule challenges to Amazing Race. I find it funny what people would do to be on tv - some have a purpose and some are just totally gratuitous.

I try to stick more towards the "quality" reality shows vs. the all-in-all train wrecks (Flavor of Love, anyone?) Most are pretty transparent and even though they say it's a peek at their life, it's pretty easy to see it's not - The Hills, Kim K show, anything Paris Hilton. TLC definitely never had the reputation of doing "scripted" reality along those lines.

When Jon and Kate came on, it was definitely interesting to see how these parents handled the challenges they were faced. My kids are about their age, so it was like seeing what motherhood on speed looked like. Plus, ocassionally I would like to quote some favorite Kate lines to my husband, as a way of saying "see, I don't look so crazy compared to her, do I?" (I still quote I have eyes everywhere when he tries to interfer when we are trying to organize something with the kids.) My kids love to watch the show, and it is something we do together. My kids get at kick out of their kids, and I enjoy watching and talking to my kids about the tv show, which is one of the reasons I still watch.

The fact is, the show has changed. Life is better for the Gosselin's but I'm not sure that makes for a better television show. I keep hoping that Figure 8 and TLC will see that like anything, moderation is better. We need less commercials masked as reality entertainment, and more genunine moments of the Gosselins actually relating with their kids.

MrsRef said...

Although you feel Kate is patient with Mady, I question the wisdom of putting her whole "Mady Dramatic" life on the tv for all to see. Kids have it hard enough without having all of their hissy fits, bad moods, etc. shown on tv daily. What is the motivation/rationalization for doing this? Does it serve to make Kate look more like a martyr to have to deal with this everyday? I know that I would not want my bad moods and "ugliness" shown to the whole world.

SamanthaNC said...

aap

Juest because something is offered to you for free doesn't necessarily mean you should take it.

Well it is being filmed and aired on television which makes tlc money- tlc isnt exactly giving them a "freebie" out of the goodness of their hearts here. TLC does it because it benefits them. If this is their work it's not really free now is it?

indianprincess said...

I started watching the show because of Jon and Kate. I thought how they treated each other was funny and liked the comments they made on the couch interviews. The children to me was a bonus. I enjoy them going to different places better than staying at home. I guess I don't have a problem with families in general having success and for the Gosselins to get free perks and trips, the power to them. When I first came to these blogs I would get so upset with what people were saying about the Gosselins but over time I realized these so called exploitation adovates need entertainment too and that's what they enjoy doing by tearing down a family they don't even know by watching a show they hate. Whatever floats your boat I guess.

SamanthaNC said...

Fiona,
The fact that you don' like Kate doesn't make her a bad mother. Also you might not "see" everything that goes on. The twins arent on camera as much as the other children presumably bc they dont want to be. Which would lead me to believe that Jon and Kate might spare Mady from having her punishments aired on television. For example in Hawaii when Mady couldnt make cookies bc of her attitude we didnt see Mady at all, only Kate explaining why Mady wasn't there.

aap said...

Guinvere -

I'm going to assume that your comment in reponse to my post is directed to the public at large, and not me personally. However, several of your comments have stated that you seem to think that I am angry, bitter or overinvested in this show. I'm not, and I wrote a more detailed response on why I started watching the show and continue to do so, which will hopefully put this "hatred" you think I have of the Gosselins to rest.

As for what I would like to see in future episodes, it could be summed up like this - less manufactured moments and more genuine ones with the family. I don't think that is unrealistic at all.

aap said...

Samanthanc -

Are you implying that TLC makes the decisions, and Jon and Kate are not able to turn down a trip? All I was saying is that just because you can go on all of these trips doesn't necessarily mean they should.

indianprincess said...

Half the time I wonder if I'm watching the same episode as other people. Other than the children getting older and more perks I haven't seen a real change in the family as a whole. Maybe I'm blinded by the Gosselin greed.. lol

Guinevere said...

I'm going to assume that your comment in reponse to my post is directed to the public at large, and not me personally. However, several of your comments have stated that you seem to think that I am angry, bitter or overinvested in this show. I'm not, and I wrote a more detailed response on why I started watching the show and continue to do so, which will hopefully put this "hatred" you think I have of the Gosselins to rest.

I think it's overinvestment to expect the show to be exactly what you want it to be. Maybe you think you are speaking for others as well as yourself - and no doubt you are, since I've seen plenty that agree with you. But there are also plenty of people who like the show the way it is. I guess I don't understand framing it as a right/wrong issue. I do understand and respect your reasons for continuing to watch, but I don't understand continually complaining (and I'm not specifically referring to you, but to the general habits of some posters) that the show is not the same as it was and that it should go back to being what it was in the early days.

SamanthaNC said...

AAP-

This was my statement:

Well it is being filmed and aired on television which makes tlc money- tlc isnt exactly giving them a "freebie" out of the goodness of their hearts here. TLC does it because it benefits them. If this is their work it's not really free now is it?

How in the world could you misconstrue that to mean that J&k have no power and tlc makes the decisions??? Clearly my point as I stated in the last sentence is that in my opinion they arent freebies. They are essentially working for these trips as I pointed out they are being filmed and turned into episodes which makes tlc $$$. Not sure how I can make myself more clear than that.

SamanthaNC said...

aap-

I meant to ask in my last post- why shouldnt they take these trips? Besides the fact that they are "Free" that is.

MrsRef said...

samanthainnc: While it was nice that Mady's punishment wasn't shown on tv, it still was discussed as was her attitude. Her carrying on and such is being sold for anyone and everyone to see for years to come. I for one am glad that my childish moments were not recorded for posterity. She may grow out of this stage but it will live on in reruns. Sad

SamanthaNC said...

mrsref- that comment was to a poster who made the statement that Kate hasn't dealt with Mady's behavioral problems until recently-I was pointing out that perhaps they merely werent aired.

Guinevere said...

While it was nice that Mady's punishment wasn't shown on tv, it still was discussed as was her attitude. Her carrying on and such is being sold for anyone and everyone to see for years to come. I for one am glad that my childish moments were not recorded for posterity. She may grow out of this stage but it will live on in reruns. Sad

I might agree if I thought that any of Mady's behavior was egregiously bad or out of the range of normal childhood behavior. I don't. I guess I just can't see being that embarrassed about being seen acting the way Mady has been seen acting on the show.

In contrast, there are reality shows - some of the sleazier ones - that really show the participants acting in ways that are so embarrassing I cringe thinking about it. I don't watch "Flavor of Love" but I am aware that in one episode, one of the women drunkenly defecated on the stairs. I mean, really. Yes, she's an adult, and thus more responsible for her choices than Mady. But THAT'S embarrassing. And I can't help but think that these shows often take advantage of people with substance abuse and/or mental problems, and show them in a very unflattering light. I find that more exploitative than anything that's been done to Mady Gosselin.

Saint said...

I started watching because I was on bed rest just when J&K+8 was a marathon, so I could get a season (or two) in one weekend.

I gave up after I saw every episode, developed a hatred for Kate and extreme sympathy for Mady, and was allowed off bedrest.

I started watching again after hearing about Aunt Jodi and finding GWoP and Truth Breeds Hatred. Then I followed Penn Mommy; then came to read over here almost exclusively when those blogs were shut down at the same time. I follow the show now so that the posts here make sense to me.

And I feel better with the changes this season. And the kids are really cute. It's an attractive family.

aap said...

Guinevere -

this was taking from the original post - Why do you watch Jon and Kate Plus 8? Love it or hate it, what keeps you coming back every week?

I understand that some people like the way the show is - I thought to purpose of this post was to discuss our personal views on that?

FIONA said...

Guin,

You make a great devil's advocate. I mean that in a nice, resectful way.


Samantha,

You are right, just because I don't like Kate does not necessarily mean she is a bad mother. I think she is not a great mother because I don't think nurturing is innate to her as it is in other mothers.

I think Kate is who Kate is, weather she had 2 kids or 8 kids, she would still most likely be harsh and chilly.

Saint said...

It is interesting how children pick up on Kate's abruptness and coldness.

I sometimes watch with my children. My two oldest think Kate is mean, too. My son just calls her "that nasty mother." They don't understand what being a mother of young kids is like. I was crankier myself when I had to organize the family because they were younger. I think as the kids get older, Kate will mellow more and more. Kids see the relationship from a kids' perspective. But having been a mother of little ones, I have a better balanced perspective than my teens. I'm not excusing Kate's mistakes. I think she needs to calm down, too. I HAVE seen her much calmer lately.

I NEVER appreciated my own folks like I did when I had babies underfoot!

FIONA said...

I guess I just can't see being that embarrassed about being seen acting the way Mady has been seen acting on the show.
---

You can't see how Mady would be embarrassed by some of the footage taken of her? Come on, that kid is probably teased to death!

"Mady Dramatic, Mady Dramatic"

Guinevere said...

this was taking from the original post - Why do you watch Jon and Kate Plus 8? Love it or hate it, what keeps you coming back every week?

I understand that some people like the way the show is - I thought to purpose of this post was to discuss our personal views on that?


I just don't understand framing it in terms of "right" and "wrong" - I'm not saying you can't think that the show was better before, but I don't see it as a moral issue. You can see it that way, of course - I'm not saying you can't - I'm just disagreeing with that interpretation, and yeah, I do see it as a bit overinvested. (But to clarify, I don't think being "overinvested" in a TV show/book/movie/whatever is the worst thing in the world. I think it's pretty normal, and I've definitely been there - I've gotten so MAD about certain people winning Survivor or The Amazing Race. I think the degree to which some Gosselin haters take their overinvestment is really wrong and creepy, but I'm not talking about that level here.)

FIONA said...

I don't watch "Flavor of Love" but I am aware that in one episode, one of the women drunkenly defecated on the stairs. I mean, really. Yes, she's an adult, and thus more responsible for her choices than Mady. But THAT'S embarrassing. And I can't help but think that these shows often take advantage of people with substance abuse and/or mental problems, and show them in a very unflattering light. I find that more exploitative than anything that's been done to Mady Gosselin.

November 13, 2008 12:43 PM

---
So totally different. Those people sign a contract, they are adults and they know they will be filmed.

Look at the people on Celebrity Rehab....they know full well they are going to be filmed going thru withdrawl. I don't think it is exploitive when you do it to yourself.

FIONA said...

Well, I think we are just as overinvested, but in a different way.

aap said...

Well it is being filmed and aired on television which makes tlc money- tlc isnt exactly giving them a "freebie" out of the goodness of their hearts here. TLC does it because it benefits them. If this is their work it's not really free now is it?

I read this to be the main benafactor here to be TLC, and if something is going to make TLC money, the Gosselins have to do it whether they want to or not because it is their "job"? After all, wouldn't their "boss" have the final word?

Jon and Kate get paid the same amount to go to the park or just staying at home as they do to go to Hawaii. Are you telling me that the Gosselins aren't receiving more benefits from going to Hawaii?

Back to the original point. You said taking these amazing trips (which = awesome experiences and memories for the kids) I don't agree. I think just spending some quality time with their parents is going to equal cherished memories for their kids, and something they will treasure much more than any trip. And most of the information I have read seems to back this theory up.

So in answer to this question I meant to ask in my last post- why shouldnt they take these trips? Besides the fact that they are "Free" that is.

They can take all the trips they want. I just think the reason the Gosselins show has turned into a travlogue is because they were offered all these trips for free. I think if the Gosselins has to pay a portion of the cost out of their own pocket they would not be going. So, based on my comment above, I think that just because they are offered a free trip doesn't mean they should necessarily take it. I think they will make the most awesome experiences at home with their family.

Guinevere said...

Look at the people on Celebrity Rehab....they know full well they are going to be filmed going thru withdrawl. I don't think it is exploitive when you do it to yourself.

I absolutely think it's exploitative to take advantage of someone like Gary Busey, who appears to be brain-damaged or mentally ill or both. People who are that messed up aren't qualified to give informed consent and sign contracts. I suppose these people are not officially under conservatorship and thus they can do what they want, but that doesn't make it right. My point is that someone like Gary Busey doesn't, IMO, have the ability to give informed consent any more than Mady, and the way he presents himself to the world is truly sad and embarrassing, which, IMO, is not at all the case with Mady - she is just a kid acting like a kid.

aap said...

Guinvere -

I guess I am not reading my post as stating what is right and wrong. I thought I was just giving my opinion of what I thought was right and wrong. The only thing i stated as a fact is that the show has changed, which is something that I think we can all agree with.

FIONA said...

Look at the people on Celebrity Rehab....they know full well they are going to be filmed going thru withdrawl. I don't think it is exploitive when you do it to yourself.

I absolutely think it's exploitative to take advantage of someone like Gary Busey, who appears to be brain-damaged or mentally ill or both. People who are that messed up aren't qualified to give informed consent and sign contracts. I suppose these people are not officially under conservatorship and thus they can do what they want, but that doesn't make it right. My point is that someone like Gary Busey doesn't, IMO, have the ability to give informed consent any more than Mady, and the way he presents himself to the world is truly sad and embarrassing, which, IMO, is not at all the case with Mady - she is just a kid acting like a kid.

November 13, 2008 1:17 PM

----

Gary Busey is a kook, and he was prior to his accident as well. He can still drive, read a contract, and thus is competant. He is just as wacked out as the guy from Guns and Roses. If they want to be on TV, go for it.

SamanthaNC said...

aap-

You may and will read my post however you choose. But as the owner of actual intentions I will again one last, yes last time, emphasize my actual point which was NOT that tlc is in control of what they do and they don't get a say- the trip isnt free, they are working by being filmed for a television series. Period. And yes aap- memories can be made of many simple things, as I do with my own child daily- however the fact that you view a trip as a freebie doesnt mean it isnt a fun experience/memory for the family.

MrsRef said...

That; the whole point, it is being DONE to Mady Gosselin. She is 8 and can't give informed consent for this to be aired. Her parents, who are supposed to protect her, are allowing AND profiting from this to be shown. Kids are cruel and most certainly would tease that poor child over what is shown.

Guinevere said...

You can't see how Mady would be embarrassed by some of the footage taken of her? Come on, that kid is probably teased to death!

Kids get teased. I've said before, but if she acts like that at school, then the kids already know what she's like. If she doesn't, it's an indication that she's capable of controlling her behavior, and maybe some peer pressure will inspire her to do so. I don't mean that to be harsh; I just don't see being labeled a drama queen by your peers as the be-all and end-all of existence.

I think they will make the most awesome experiences at home with their family.

I think that being together as a family is the key - whether at home or on vacation. It would be one thing if we were weighing J&K's opportunity to go on fabulous trips without the kids v. spending time with their children. But the whole family is experiencing it and "making memories" together; I don't see why being at home is innately superior.

Besides, I'm starting to think that the "travelogue" comparison is an exaggeration. The twins are in school and the sextuplets are in pre-school now, so I doubt they'll be going on week-long trips in the near future. They went on a summer vacation to NC and then to Hawaii for the vow renewal. The other "trips" that get thrown in there are either day trips like Sight and Sound or overnight trips to NYC for promotion. I don't think they are going to continue to be the Traveling Gosselins throughout the school year - unless they decide to take their kids out of school and homeschool them.


I guess I am not reading my post as stating what is right and wrong. I thought I was just giving my opinion of what I thought was right and wrong. The only thing i stated as a fact is that the show has changed, which is something that I think we can all agree with.

I don't mean to over-parse your words - I may have misinterpreted them. I was just going by the word "wrong" and the word "should" (that the show should return to its roots), which IMO frames it as a moral issue, and I just don't see it that way.

Gary Busey is a kook, and he was prior to his accident as well. He can still drive, read a contract, and thus is competant. He is just as wacked out as the guy from Guns and Roses. If they want to be on TV, go for it.

Being able to drive and read does not mean that someone is actually competent to make the decision to be on TV. From what I've seen (and I don't watch the show, so I've only seen clips), Mr. Busey behaves very strangely, and his strangeness is served up to make him a figure of fun. I don't think that is right.

FIONA said...

Being able to drive and read does not mean that someone is actually competent to make the decision to be on TV. From what I've seen (and I don't watch the show, so I've only seen clips), Mr. Busey behaves very strangely, and his strangeness is served up to make him a figure of fun. I don't think that is right.

November 13, 2008 1:41 PM

---
Seems like you have more compassion for Gary Busey than you do for Mady Gosselin.

Still Anon said...

I love the kids and I think they are a family trying to stay together. I like Kate in spite of her foibles. I get Jon and Kate's black humor. I like that they are honest about their vanities and short comings. I think Jon being able to stay home and take care of the kids is great, better that than working and commuting and being miserable. I say they get what they can get out of this and then become normal again.

Guinevere said...

Seems like you have more compassion for Gary Busey than you do for Mady Gosselin.

Not at all. I like Mady very much and have compassion for her. I just don't believe that anything she's been shown on TV doing is that big a deal, and I think the horrific teasing some imagine her being subject to is overstated.

FIONA said...

Let's chat in 10 years....:)

MrsRef said...

I disagree. Kids tease each other horribly and now that we have the internet and other ways to communicate I think it is much worse. Some kids can brush it off and some kids can't. Parents are to be the protectors of their children and again, Mady's parents are chosing to air their dirty laundry on tv and sell it to the highest bidder. I am 50 years old and still can remember the weird kid, smelly kids, crying kid etc from grade school. It doesn't go away. There was a kid in my son's class who went out with several guns to do God knows what because he was teased, even by the teachers. Fortunately he was caught before harm was done but teasing can be very harmful.

nc resident said...

If the trips are advertisements and the Gosselins can't refuse them maybe the long time claim of these kids being actors is correct. It cant be both realty and situation drama can it. The realty show claim keeps the kids from unions and exempt from the child actor laws. Better keep the trip requirement under your hat, it could change the rules regarding these "child actors".

nc resident said...

Guinevere didnt Kate herself say or Jon that Madys school friends saw some episodes and she was teased? or at least because of her appearance on the show.

NannyofTwins said...

I absolutely adored the newest episode and two of my favorite parts included Mady.

One was after the hula dancing lesson when she was so proud of herself and was lovingly hugging Kate afterwards.

The second one was when Jon took Mady and Cara up in the water elevator. Mady was scared of the water pushing her so she was screaming for her Daddy and to see him pick her up and carry her the rest of the way was very sweet IMO.

It was nice to see those sweet little moments with Mady.

the bakers wife said...

i watch because i have watched from the very beginning, when i heard "surviving twins and sextuplets" i thought o my! i was intrigued. They are an interesting family with adorable kids. I love how they just love their kids, have faith in God, and dont put on an act. if jon and kate can do it with 8 kiddos i sure can do it with 3 (3yr old and 5month twins). some days i am so overwhelmed i want to pull my hair out, then i think wow it could be crazier! love watching the kids grow up, and jon and kate make me laugh so hard they are so cute together and sometimes remind me of my husband and I.

merryway said...

I have to laugh at Gary Busey. The Soup clips are hilarious.

aap said...

samanthanc -

You do know the trip was paid for by the hotel and not TLC don't you?

MrsRef said...

Please allow me to put a disclaimer before I get pounced on. I did not say that any of the Gosselin children will be roaming the streets armed with weapons. The story I related was true. It happened in 2002 and I can provide newspaper accounts if necessary. No one knows how someone internalizes teasing and it does have lifelong effects. I feel sorry for Gary Busey and the others on those shows. I totally believe they are so intent on reclaiming their "fame" that they will do almost anything. It is pathetic that so many shows like that are popping up.

aap said...

Guin -

But the whole family is experiencing it and "making memories" together;

Except when you are sent to you room and can't participate in activites with the rest of the family.

I don't see why being at home is innately superior. Some people work long hours to provide the "right" lifestyle for their family, others struggle to save money to take their kids on vacation to Disney World, and some people buy their kids what ever they want to make them happy. However, time and time again, we hear people (psychologists, family therapists, etc.) say (based on their own experiences and research), that the one thing kids want is their parents. All of the toys and fancy vacations really can't compare to the memories they have of their parents setting time aside to do something special with them.

A Mom-ynous said...

Honestly, I am a fan of biographical stories...be it a dramatized version (the more truthful, the less dramatized the better).

So I like "slice of life".

Whether the folks are creating their own situations (today we have to do _____) to them being placed in situations (a contest on Survivor, a temptation on Biggest loser, or a day at a theme park, zoo or Hawaii on J&K)--

I like to watch unscripted as it happens television.

Most of the scripting in these shows is a "planning" outline or an effect of editing. For the most part folks aren't told what to say or when to say it.

Being in their 4th year of filming documentary, they have gotten "better" at narrating as they go so it might seem scripted but it really isn't.

In any case, I enjoy learning about people's lives in any manner they are living it.

Nothing to do with being "fans" of the show or a "sheeple".

A Mom-ynous said...

"Memories, I question how much the little ones will remember when they are 30, don't need to be made in exotic vacation spots."

True--but it doesn't mean a child won't enjoy it.

My children have been to Europe and Hawaii. While they do remember Hawaii and not Europe b/c it was earlier, I wouldn't change the plans to have gone in the first place.

My theory--children are reared in those locales all day every day all year long. So my kids will appreciate something.

If I waited until they appreciated the cost to do that something--I'd not do anything for them until they earned their own money and could pay for it themselves.

That in and of itself is a ridiculous notion.

My daughter enjoys the tales of what it was like when she first saw the Mona Lisa: after much hunting and following the signs to find it in the Louvre, we got to her and my pint size art hunter couldn't see and said very loudly "Mommy---I can't see the Mona Lisa...these people are in the way!!!!"

Then when she was ready to leave the Louvre (at age 3), we had to keep her interested enough so that we could hit our second goal of seeing Venus De Milo. So we told her to let us know when she saw any "inappropriately attired" statues. (we used different words for our 3 year old).

She loves that story as well.

We love to include our children in our lives and don't believe in not letting them do things "b/c they won't appreciate it" or some other nonsense.

We plan within our budget and with our audience (the kids) in mind. We don't avoid locations--exotic, non-exotic, or any place in between--just b/c they are kids. We just plan the trip differently. They even make travel guides for it.

So as long as children aren't banned from the location we are visiting--the world is open to our adventures.

We create memories--but sometimes the memories are about both the parents and the children.

And you never know what a child will remember.

A Mom-ynous said...

"But the whole family is experiencing it and "making memories" together;

Except when you are sent to you room and can't participate in activites with the rest of the family."

Are you saying then--that children should not experience consequences for poor behavior on vacations?

1. The family shouldn't have to remain at home all the time in the off chance a child misbehaves.

2. As I told my then 4 year old at Disney--the naughty corner travels with us. As they get older and too old for the naugthy corner, removal of special privileges travels with us to.

To induldge a clearly misbehaving child with fun only reinforces the negative behavior.

Kelley said...

I don't get the financial jealousy either. I have a teeny house in a very expensive area and have no children(yet) but I find them relateable. My husband and I go on awesome vacations together, and we'll continue to when we have a kiddo. We save to do it, but we're not on tv and don't have a "Noteworthy" existance. If their family can be noteable and on tv and people give them things to promote their products, That's awesome.

I'll restate many people's sentiments, it's fun! And we should be happy that they've been fortunate. God bless them everyone.

Guinevere said...

I have to laugh at Gary Busey. The Soup clips are hilarious.

Well, I kind of laugh too. But then I feel guilty 'cause dude is NOT RIGHT in the head. I don't think I could stand to watch the whole show because it would make me squirm too much.

There was a kid in my son's class who went out with several guns to do God knows what because he was teased, even by the teachers.

IMO, no kid ever does something *that* drastic because he was teased. Far more likely that he was teased because he was weird, and he brought guns to school because he was weird. Correlation does not equal causation.

I think I saw someone say this on another thread today - with all of this talk about teasing, how about we put some of the responsibility on parents to teach their kids not to be unkind, instead of just accepting it as an inevitability? I mean, I understand that people's points are about Mady's meltdowns and getting teased for that, but I wonder - do those who are so concerned about teasing tell their kids never to stick out in any way? Never to be different? Never to march to the beat of their own drummer? Because that stuff will get you teased. I hate the idea that we have to live in fear of our kids being teased and that the only recourse we have is to create little conformist robots.

Guinevere didnt Kate herself say or Jon that Madys school friends saw some episodes and she was teased? or at least because of her appearance on the show.

They may have. But - there's teasing and then there's teasing. IMO, some people here are really losing perspective. Kids tease each other. Part of growing up is to learn not to tease and to learn to taking teasing with some equanimity. When teasing becomes actual bullying and abuse, then it's obviously a problem. But I don't assume that just because Mady's on TV, or because of the way she's depicted on TV, she is inevitably going to be a target for bullying and abuse. There are too many variables and it's another case where people are making huge assumptions about things they know nothing about.

Except when you are sent to you room and can't participate in activites with the rest of the family.

So what would you have done? Canceled the outing? Had Mady come and ruin it for everyone? I think they made the right choice there, though I'm sure it wasn't easy.

However, time and time again, we hear people (psychologists, family therapists, etc.) say (based on their own experiences and research), that the one thing kids want is their parents. All of the toys and fancy vacations really can't compare to the memories they have of their parents setting time aside to do something special with them.

But...they are. They are with them in Hawaii, they are spending time with them, they are doing things with them. That's what we're actually seeing. I feel like I'm missing something here; it's almost like you're making my point for me, and I don't think that is your intent.

MrsRef said...

Oh my dear Guinevere: That child indeed acted out because of the teasing as did his overweight friend and his friend who also did not fit in. The boy was in a couple of my son's classes and when I talked about with him, and he said the teasing extended to the faculty at the school. I never said he brought guns to school - they were walking down the street in our town. I will assume that you have never been the victim of teasing. My daughter was teased all thru grade school, middle school and high school. I personally heard it and saw the way it affected her. It was not until she was in college that she was able to get out from the turmoil it caused. I was teased as a kid too, partly because of my hair color (carrot tops are green by the way) and because I lived with my grandparents not my mother and father. It hurts and not everyone has the mental fortitude to overcome it without scars. And scars are not always visible. Yes I agree that parents should teach their children not to bully and tease but in reality that is not the case. Please do not underestimate the potential for these kids to be harmed in the long run.

Linda said...

fiona,

I can't help but notice that you seem to have had another transformation.

Not that you are not within your rights to do so, but it seems that something is different.

What's up?

indianprincess said...

Watching the show comes down to making a choice. You neither watch or you don't like Jon and Kate making the choice to do the show whatever the reasons are for still doing it. We can talk all we want why we all agree or disagree but it all comes down to what Jon and Kate decide because it's their family not ours. Jon and Kate are not perfect and no matter what they do or don't do someone will take offense to it and IMO is why I think the show is so popular because it creates drama.

aap said...

Guin -

Are the parents really there, focused on the kids or just getting them through one activity to the next? Just because the parents are there physically doesn't mean that there is a true child - parent connection.

Think of the whole family making cookies vs. Jon and Cara in the water (though I don't believe there has to be a 1-on-1 ratio for this to happen. It's just the first example that came to me.) A parent was there for both events however I don't really think the cookie making with the chef is going to be what Cara remembers and when the younger kids think of Hawaii I doubt they'll remember it at all.

My guess is Cara's going to remember the time her father took to teach her something. Fortunately, they don't need to travel to Hawaii for something like that to happen again.

scarfoot said...

I'm curious what people think of shows like "Super Nanny" or "Nanny 911." In both of those shows, children with behavior problems are issues. Are those shows acceptable in regards to placing a child's issues in the spotlight? Are those children going to be teased mercilessly? Just curious about what people thought.

kimber said...

scarfoot said...
I'm curious what people think of shows like "Super Nanny" or "Nanny 911." In both of those shows, children with behavior problems are issues. Are those shows acceptable in regards to placing a child's issues in the spotlight? Are those children going to be teased mercilessly? Just curious about what people thought.

---

Good point. I've seen a few episodes of those shows and the kids are terrors. I automatically thought they'd be teased for being shown on tv in that negative light, while the kids on J&K+8, who are mostly shown in a positive light, are shown as cute kids who are sometimes naughty but often beautiful and adorable. Would they be teased? It's not something that I think will be an issue for any of the 8.

aap said...

Actually, the more I think of Jon and Cara in the water, I think about Mady playing on the beach with the 2 kids she just met. So even though Jon and Cara are there doing something together, if he's leaving every 5 minutes to make sure Mady doesn't walk away with strangers, then I don't think that is a positive memory Cara will have at all.

kimber said...

aap said...
Actually, the more I think of Jon and Cara in the water, I think about Mady playing on the beach with the 2 kids she just met. So even though Jon and Cara are there doing something together, if he's leaving every 5 minutes to make sure Mady doesn't walk away with strangers, then I don't think that is a positive memory Cara will have at all.

----

Jon didn't have to go check on Mady on the beach every 5 minutes. You do realize Mady was left with a camera crew and producer while Cara and Jon were in the water, the same way we see Cara in the water with a camera man and another person while Jon brought Mady to shore, right?

Kelley said...

I don't call it patience, I call it the path of least resistance.

Up until the Lego epi, we never saw Kate "deal" with Mady

So, Mady needs privacy but it's ok to discepline her publicly? You don't think that is a private parenting issue?

Kelley said...

Linda said...
fiona,

I can't help but notice that you seem to have had another transformation.

Not that you are not within your rights to do so, but it seems that something is different.

What's up?

November 13, 2008 6:59 PM

What IS up?

MrsRef said...

Kimber: I think Nanny 911 and Supernanny are wrong also. I don't understand the need to put it all out there on tv. A big difference is that an episode of Super Nanny will be on for one hour, and maybe be re-run once during the season. Jon & kate are on every day several times a day in my cable market plus they are selling dvd's. Colin's bathroom issues, Mady's meltdowns, the comments directed at Joel are preserved forever and sold by their parents. I don't see how the 8 will be immune from teasing and ridicule unless they live in a bubble.

michelle said...

I honestly do not see a "purpose" in this show. Unlike with the show, Little People, Big World.
With this show, Matt and Amy, are both advocates for "little" children in helping them to either find good homes (being adopted) or in getting medical care. In the episode where Matt went to Iraq, to help these kids who were "little" and in desparate (sp)need of medical care. That episode was great! Now that is much more "rewarding" to watch and even "entertaining" than watching the Gosselins go on all these outings and trips.

Remember, Just my opinion.

Guinevere said...

Oh my dear Guinevere: That child indeed acted out because of the teasing as did his overweight friend and his friend who also did not fit in. The boy was in a couple of my son's classes and when I talked about with him, and he said the teasing extended to the faculty at the school. I never said he brought guns to school - they were walking down the street in our town.

Well, you definitely implied that he had some sinister intent, and that is just not normal behavior that is solely the result of teasing. If it was, kids would be shooting up schools all the time (and they aren't; the reason these things make such big news is because they are rare, though not rare enough). I remember after Columbine, there were those that wanted to make it seem like these were poor, tormented boys who had been teased and bullied so much that they finally snapped. The truth was quite a bit different and quite a bit more complex. They were very sick kids.

I will assume that you have never been the victim of teasing.

Why would you assume that?

My daughter was teased all thru grade school, middle school and high school. I personally heard it and saw the way it affected her.

But...she wasn't on a TV show? I thought it was only being on a TV show that caused teasing?

Look, I'm not saying that teasing doesn't cause emotional scars. Most of us (especially females) don't get through middle and high school unscathed. And yet, we do get through it. Maybe we're stronger for it. Maybe we never get over it. A lot depends on each of our individual personalities.

Also, there are just so many assumptions being made here...that Mady is teased about her behavior on the show; that the kids at school haven't ever seen her act dramatic. I can't help but wonder what people want. The show not to show Mady's behavior? The show to end? Maybe people think it would be better if Mady had never had sextuplet siblings; that makes her stand out, and standing out is a good way to get teased. Maybe J&K never should have gotten together and had kids, since being of mixed ethnicity might get them teased.

You can't live your life so scared. I really think the best thing that J&K can do is try to imbue their kids with healthy self-esteem and a sense of resiliency. The rest will take care of itself.

Tyra said...

Quote:
I think Nanny 911 and Supernanny are wrong also. I don't understand the need to put it all out there on tv. A big difference is that an episode of Super Nanny will be on for one hour, and maybe be re-run once during the season. Jon & kate are on every day several times a day in my cable market plus they are selling dvd's. Colin's bathroom issues, Mady's meltdowns, the comments directed at Joel are preserved forever and sold by their parents. I don't see how the 8 will be immune from teasing and ridicule unless they live in a bubble.

Collin's bathroom issues? Plural? Isn't that an exaggeration? And Mady's meltdowns would probably be like looking in the mirror for a healthy percentage of her peers.

I disagree with the assumption that the things you listed are of that much concern to kids. As far as I have seen, they are of consuming interest to many viewers of 'Jon & Kate Plus 8', but that demographic is the wrong crowd to be schoolyard bullies. (Well.. a few exceptions elsewhere come to mind.) I certainly don't think any of the school age crowd is blogging about the show, or re-watching it to come up with teasing ammunition.

As far as 'Supernanny' goes, I actually agree with you: I don't understand putting it all out there for public consumption. However, I do think that there are plenty of people, a lot of them on the young side, who understand it as part of their life experience: MySpace, Facebook involve too much sharing for my taste, but plenty of others have no problem with it. Reality TV isn't some weird phenom to them (and when can we get back to the way tv used to be?), it's the way tv is, and plenty of kids have grown up watching the various 'humiliations' of reality tv. And I think it will be even less of a big deal to the Gosselin kids' generation.

Guinevere said...

Are the parents really there, focused on the kids or just getting them through one activity to the next? Just because the parents are there physically doesn't mean that there is a true child - parent connection.

Do you really feel that you have the right to make a judgment about the quality of the child-parent connections in the Gosselin family, just by what you see on TV? I don't.

It just seems so critical - first, they aren't spending time with the kids, and then if they are, they aren't doing it the right way.

If you go back and watch the ending, on the boat - Kate urged Mady to get in the water and share the experience of seeing the sea turtles. I thought it was a really neat moment. I heard Kate say, "I'll go out with you", because she knew Mady was scared. I wish she would get credit for these moments. They aren't *that* rare. I do understand, to some degree, the criticisms of her as being snappish, or even "mean" - it's just that she's not like that all the time, or even most of the time, and I feel like all the times she's not just get ignored. I really feel that the kids will have good, lasting memories of this vacation, and those memories will include their parents.

Think of the whole family making cookies vs. Jon and Cara in the water (though I don't believe there has to be a 1-on-1 ratio for this to happen. It's just the first example that came to me.) A parent was there for both events however I don't really think the cookie making with the chef is going to be what Cara remembers and when the younger kids think of Hawaii I doubt they'll remember it at all.

Not every moment is going to be remembered, or has to be; it doesn't mean it's not fun at the time. It's not like they were working in a coal mine; they were decorating and eating cookies.

Actually, the more I think of Jon and Cara in the water, I think about Mady playing on the beach with the 2 kids she just met. So even though Jon and Cara are there doing something together, if he's leaving every 5 minutes to make sure Mady doesn't walk away with strangers, then I don't think that is a positive memory Cara will have at all.

aap, we're friends and all (I hope), but sometimes you are more depressing than a Bergman film. Do you always have to look for the worm in the apple? :-)

merryway said...

Well, I kind of laugh too. But then I feel guilty 'cause dude is NOT RIGHT in the head. I don't think I could stand to watch the whole show because it would make me squirm too much.

Guin, I get that it's a cheap shot. I always feel it's unfair when the Amish are parodied.

I'm glad you distinguished between teasing and bullying. I do think that Mady is going to be forever known as the “troubled one”. It's inevitable that some of the children will be given labels. I think it gives her more to overcome. Their famous childhood is something with which they'll all have to deal with in some way. Kate seems so protective of her children that I think that if Mady was being overly teased that she would do something to take care of it. I believe the rest of it just comes with the lifestyle they have chosen.

I wish she would get credit for these moments. They aren't *that* rare.

This bothers me also. I think Kate's bad moments stand out so much more. When I watched the Mem Day marathon eps, I was so shocked at what I thought she was. I remember I never thought I saw her playing with the kids or reading a book. I didn't remember her being affectionate with the boys. Now when I watch the reruns I see all that stuff. Since the show has been on so long, I don't get how the people who put this show under a microscope over and over could miss those moments they claim never happen.

Tyra said...

Quote:
Being able to drive and read does not mean that someone is actually competent to make the decision to be on TV. From what I've seen (and I don't watch the show, so I've only seen clips), Mr. Busey behaves very strangely, and his strangeness is served up to make him a figure of fun. I don't think that is right.

Side note on the 'Celebrity Rehab' show. I haven't seen much of this second season, but I have to admit that I found the first season mesmerizing. The ads and clips make it look like a freak show and there's plenty of weird acting up for the camera, but I really felt there was a lot of honest emotion and real compassion in the way the celebrities were presented on the show. I also felt like I got an understanding about addiction I'd never had before.

Lizabeth said...

Whoa... I work late and take the night off of checking this and suddenly 30 some comments is over 100! Way to go ya'll :).

Anyway, a couple things that caught my eye- sorry for not stating these directly to the OP but I can't remember who said what.

re: Mady being teased-- I believe this was mentioned in the People Magazine article- some kids teased her for the things they saw on the show. At the same time, though, I do agree that some teasing is normal-- if it wasn't the show, there is a good chance she would be teased anyway. And yes, I was teased growing up. A lot. Baptist pastor's daughter with 4 brothers = tons of boys laughing at anything I said or did. My mom always said there would be crowns in heaven for me after putting up with it all... but thats just to say that my childhood made me the person I am now, so as much as it sucked, I wouldn't change a thing.

re: "Memories" from childhood... I am seeing as I get older that I really do not remember things as they actually were. We did not have a video camera and rarely did pictures, so short of hearing stories from my parents it is tough to remember things that happened. Right now, with my nephew, I take lots of pictures and videos (as do my brother and SIL) so he can see how deeply loved and cherished he is-- and I plan to do the same with my own children one day.
I think the show enables Jon and Kate to actually share these memories more effectively. Of course many of us remember fondly the memories without expensive price tags, but who are we to judge whether the Gosselin kids will regret this upbringing?

MrsRef said...

Guinevere: I think you must have been one of the "mean" and popular girls in school who did the teasing and bullying. The way you pick apart anything that does not agree with the pro-gosselin stance here line by line is tiresome and annoying. Do you have to be that superior? That story happened in our community and it absolutely had to do with the way a young boy was teased and tormented by others. If you e-mail me, I will send you the numerous articles that came from it since you always seem to require "Proof" of anything written. Yes, there were some underlying issues but the teasing put him over the edge. The human spirit can only take so much. And Tyra, sorry I put a s on issues. It was not my intention to make it plural and exagerated.

SamanthaNC said...

mrsref:

May I suggest calming down? I think that Guin's point was that many children are teased- even for long periods of time without becoming violent and that it takes more underlying issues to go shoot up a school. Being bullied is no excuse. She brought up Columbine as an example and those kids killed innocent people who played no part in "bullying" them. You have to be serioiusly disturbed for bullying to have you whipping out the guns, you know? I think that that was her point- I dont think anyone here doubts that this boy was teased. But that luckily his reacton is a rare one.

Nina Bell said...

Mrs. Ref,

I understand your frustration. This site is definetely open to debate and Guin does like a good debate. I wonder if she was on the debate team in high school? I noticed AAP is very good at debating also and I mean that as a compliment.

That being said, I think it is important to remember that many people that read here see your point even though they do not post or respond. Just because Guin disagrees with you doesn't mean your message is not coming across. We average 1300 visitors a day on this site, so many people are seeing your point.

I appreciate the fact that you and others are here and we have the back and forth. I really don't think a blog where everyone says the same thing is that interesting. I listen and read everything that you and others say and have changed my mind on a few things because of it.

So thank you for participating and giving us your insight.

Weed said...

I’m not much on posting, I’d much rather just read but I wanted to add my 2 cents on the G-Show. I, like most others, really enjoyed the show when it began. Things started changing when they hit it “big”. It stopped focusing on the children and started being a Jon & Kate show. I don’t begrudge them the trips, free stuff…. But I really think now is the time to stop. You’ve received so much - isn’t it time to start focusing on the children; they seem to have gotten lost in this whole process. Yes – they get the benefits of going cool places and hopefully a nice savings account for all 8 for their future, but they’re getting older – they need more stability, less time in the spot light – they need to realize what a childhood is like without cameras and being separated from the rest of the “normal” people. Now is the time to call the show off – I’m sure they have enough saved and if not the parents both have careers to fall back on. They could even do a once a year special with updates on the kids. But Please – now is the time to stop, let the kids start to develop the normal life they so deserve ‘cause what they’re living now is not normal. I think eventually Jon and Kate would also enjoy a no-camera life. They might take longer to adjust – but in the long run I really think the family would benefit. They could reestablish the family relationships that got lost and actually start to enjoy life with those beautiful children ‘cause to be honest I don’t think they are enjoying their life. Don’t get me wrong – they like the freebies, but they’ve lost the simple joys of family life. Those little things are so much more important than free trips, free toys and clothes. Those little things are what kids remember. The trip to Hawaii will be remembered but playing in the snow and the back yard camping is what will be a bigger, more important memory. Jon and Kate – if you do read these blogs – I can only speak for myself – stop now and take the time to focus on the kids – they don’t need all the fancy things that this show is providing, they just need their Mom and Dad, food on the table, clothes on their backs and a roof over their head . Let them be “normal” kids and you focus on being the best parents you can be. When you started the show it was too capture the moments that you knew you’d be too busy to – you’ve captured them and more. You’ve given the children many memories – heck, you’ve got a few perks for yourself along the way but now is the time to step away. Those children need Mommy and Daddy much more then they need anymore trips and toys. The show isn’t what you intended it to be and hasn’t for a long time. Sorry for such a long post but it’s been building and I thought it was either now or never.

This is totally off point but I did buy the book last weekend and read it all on Friday night. I’ve heard Jon and Kate both say that in the beginning that there were 7 sacs and that the episode before Christmas when she starting bleeding and they performed an ultra-sound, it was down to 6. That was their turning point – when everything changed when they realized they could have lost all the babies. My point – in the book it doesn’t say anything about the original 7 sacs, Kate even goes on to say that after the ultra-sound, “Thank Goodness we have all 6, they’re still there” – not an exact quote. But the book never mentions the 7th and losing it. Does anyone else remember all the talks they gave and that being the first part of their speech?? I’m not completely losing it, am I? Thanks for letting me vent. I’m actually going to post this on both sites. Hopefully one will take pity on a poor first time poster.

A Mom-ynous said...

Re: the book and no mention of 7 sacs.

Different women grieve differently over the loss of a sac/embryo--miscarriage.

I have 3 kids, but I have 4 pregnancies. I was highly devestated over the loss of my 3rd pregnancy. Had I not taken a test, I would have just thought it was a very odd period. We wanted a third, and I was devestated over not having that. We were greenlighted and thankfully had a 4th pregnancy. I cannot imagine life without him. He is just a delight. Clearly, God wished for him to be there.

With his arrival, I no longer have the sense of loss over that miscarriage. I don't grieve at the anniversary of the loss. I don't mourn the due date of that pregnancy. I did all this when I was still pregnant with my 4th mind you. B/c I didn't wait enough time for psychological healing so the pregnancy was stressful b/c of that.

But once he was born healthy, that 3rd pregnancy was pretty much forgotten.

It doesn't make me sinister or horrible or a liar that the pregnancy existed. (not that I believe you think this of Kate).

But if I were to right a memoir on the blessings of my kids--the miscarriage doesn't quite fit into that mix. I might mention it maybe in speaking of the my 3rd live baby, but I just wasn't attached to it.

I do not know the road of infertility. The miscarriage fell within the usual statistical happenings. Just a fluke of nature that happens.

With Kate I can only presume she fails to mention the lost sac in the book, b/c she is focusing on the 6th healthy children that were born. She doesn't grieve the loss of that sac. I have not seen her in public--and perhaps she had her reasons for discussing it.

But when it came to writing about it, perhaps it just wasn't needed when the focus was on the positive outcome of her pregnancy.

I don't know.

But I wanted to share my perspective that I really only talk about my miscarriage--in moments like this, when folks are discussing that topic. And had that sac been a singleton, she would have been considered a miscarriage for that pregnancy.

Often (from what I hear) mothers of multiples do not necessarily mourn the absence of a baby or the absorption of a baby as much as they would have if it were their only baby that is lost so early in the pregnancy.

Of course once you have developing embryos and fetuses...the attachment grows and of course a loss later in pregnancy would be greater felt.

That is why I no longer mourn the miscarriage I did have. Aside from a plus sign--there wasn't any time to develop real attachment. Truthfully things were very off from the start. :( My son was conceived on my next cycle and I just cannot imagine life without him.

Some how, I was able to come to peace to know that mourning the loss would be not appreciating his existance.

For Kate--I feel that most people put her under a microscope like a politician to find inconsistencies in her stories. It is rather unfortunate b/c she is still a private citizen and doesn't have to disclose everything in proper order each and every time she opens her mouth.

FIONA said...

fiona,

I can't help but notice that you seem to have had another transformation.

Not that you are not within your rights to do so, but it seems that something is different.

What's up?

November 13, 2008 6:59 PM

---

Linda,

I have not a clue what you mean....

Weed said...

To A Mom-ynous said... , I don't think Kate had any sinster motives for not mentioning the sac nor do I think she's a liar or any thing along those lines - I made mention of this because it was such a turning point in her and Jon's life at the beginning of her pregnancy. When they lost the 7th, from what I'm understanding - and what I've seen them say on various programs - it made them put things into perspective, if that's even possible when faced with so many babies to look forward to :-) I just assumed that she would also mention that in the beginning of the book since it was such a pivotal time in their life. But it's her book, her life and she can write what she likes. I enjoyed the book and was just making a comment on what I thought would have been mentioned and was curious to see if anyone else had a thought on it.

FIONA said...

I don't call it patience, I call it the path of least resistance.

Up until the Lego epi, we never saw Kate "deal" with Mady

So, Mady needs privacy but it's ok to discepline her publicly? You don't think that is a private parenting issue?

November 13, 2008 8:05 PM

---
Yea Kelley, Mady does need privacy, and no I do not think she should be disciplined on air. Nor do I think her Mother or Father should discuss the fact that Mady has issues, "Mady Dramatic" on TV either.

If my opinions or thoughts bother you, please just skip over, OK?

FIONA said...

aap, we're friends and all (I hope), but sometimes you are more depressing than a Bergman film. Do you always have to look for the worm in the apple? :-)

November 14, 2008 12:02 AM

---

So funny!
Guin, can't you ever see the forest thru the trees! :)

dotsicle said...

weed, I enjoyed your post and agree with what you said.

Guinevere said:
"Look, I'm not saying that teasing doesn't cause emotional scars. Most of us (especially females) don't get through middle and high school unscathed. And yet, we do get through it. Maybe we're stronger for it. Maybe we never get over it. A lot depends on each of our individual personalities.

Also, there are just so many assumptions being made here...that Mady is teased about her behavior on the show; that the kids at school haven't ever seen her act dramatic. I can't help but wonder what people want. The show not to show Mady's behavior? The show to end? Maybe people think it would be better if Mady had never had sextuplet siblings; that makes her stand out, and standing out is a good way to get teased....."
I so agree with this. Anyone that is "different" gets teased and sometimes bullied.I got it through most of my school years, mostly because we moved a lot and I was always the "new kid". There were other reasons, too, but not necessary for this post. I wonder if it's just Mady being teased for her bad behavior or if Cara gets it too? We do see Cara throw tantrums, just not as often as we see or hear about Mady's. Mady is jealous of the tups' attention and has a "diva" personality. That will only continue to earn teasing until she learns to tone her behavior down. If she "suffers" in later years, it won't be because she was teased.

nc resident said...

Weed I saw what you saw but I think the 7th did not develop. It was there, then since it didnt develop I guess the term is that it was miscarried. This caused the bleeding, Kate said on a show this was it.

mrsref, I have felt as you did but was reluctant to say that. Im my opinion Quinevere does the following, with negative Gosselin posts. First she asks for proof, or tells you that you are making assumptions. Ignoring the fact that she is making an assumption by defending her comment without proof as well. Maybe only positive Gosselin assumption are allowed here. Then when clear cut proof exists she minimizes the evidence by rationalizing the Gosselins actions, or pointing okay, okay but does it matter or is it relevant or just by saying SO. On another thread she answered me, joking referred to Kate as a bitch something I never said.
Her in depth dissection of posts micro analyzes the post and in many case adds or infers more than theoriginal post. IE Mady was teased by children who watched the show. Thats all I said it was in People Magazine pointed out by another poster, I thought I heard it on a show. That is all I said. Then we got the there is teasing then there is teasing debate, what? The college fund issue is clear cut; they mislead or lied to people regarding that. It does exist, it was set up for the sextuplets and Cara and Mady as well. No answer on that proof. Then we get the going on circles comment which is true. We are going in circles because some have dug their heels in and refuse to admit negative comments regarding J&K are correct, even where given clear cut proof.

aap said...

Guin -

I take no offense at your comments. This whole conversation started because I don't believe the kids need to on extravagant trips for the family to have awesome memories. And if their life is turning into attending one special event or trip after another, which I agree is some what of a Kate-style exaggeration, well then they are going to have a different interpretation of what special is. When everything is special, sometimes nothing is. Sometimes less is more. That's all I'm saying. Sometimes I think twisting what I say to be negative has more to do with your interpretation of the underlying meaning you believe what I am saying vs. my actual intent, and unfortunately, I haven't found a way to get my point across successfully to you. The more I try to explain the bigger hole I seem to dig. But I'm going to try one more time.

If you go back and watch the ending, on the boat - Kate urged Mady to get in the water and share the experience of seeing the sea turtles. I thought it was a really neat moment. I heard Kate say, "I'll go out with you", because she knew Mady was scared.

That is a neat moment, and if this is something Kate consistently does, encouraging Mady to work on her fear by offering to do things with her, that's what Mady's going to remember, that her mom was there going through things with her, not specifically that it happened when they were in Hawaii. This is the point I am trying to get across - not a criticism of Jon and Kate's parenting skills. Can't you see the difference between that moment and just having the parents there when they made cookies? Because, from what I gather you are saying is, if the parents are there aren't they making memories? Are they making memories of this vacation - of course they are. Are they going to be their favorite memories? Who knows? Do you member every single trip you took with your family? Are your favorite memories with your family trips you took or the time your parents spent with you regardless of the location?

Are the parents really there, focused on the kids or just getting them through one activity to the next? Just because the parents are there physically doesn't mean that there is a true child - parent connection.

Do you really feel that you have the right to make a judgment about the quality of the child-parent connections in the Gosselin family, just by what you see on TV? I don't.


This is an example of you adding more meaning to my posts then are actually there. From your posts, I believe you are saying that just because Parents are present, the family is automatically making lasting memories with their family. I disagree with that theory, and that's why I said what I did. It has nothing to do specifically with Jon and Kate but families in general. Several of my comments I made were not specific to the Gosselins but about families in general that I applied to the Gosselins and are more comments then criticisms.



re: "Memories" from childhood... I am seeing as I get older that I really do not remember things as they actually were. We did not have a video camera and rarely did pictures, so short of hearing stories from my parents it is tough to remember things that happened. Right now, with my nephew, I take lots of pictures and videos (as do my brother and SIL) so he can see how deeply loved and cherished he is-- and I plan to do the same with my own children one day.

Actually, what the Gosselin kids will be seeing is someone else's viewpoint of their life, which isn't necessarily going to be their favorite memories. As for taking a ton of pictures and videos of everything your kids does, well, have you seriously thought of what you are going with all that stuff? Do you really think your kids are going to want to/have time to go through everything? (I scrapbook and take a TON of pictures - at least 250 per event - this is something that gets talked about a lot on scrap booking boards.) Even though you don't remember every single event you did, I'm sure there are special times with your that you still remember. Do you feel less loved and cherished than your nephew because of the lack of photos/videos?


It is rather unfortunate b/c she is still a private citizen and doesn't have to disclose everything in proper order each and every time she opens her mouth.

I think when Kate and Jon made the decision to air their life on TV, they stopped being private citizens. That's what happens when you are in the public eye, people want to know more about you and probably more than you want to give. This is unfortunate but true. Do you think Jennifer Ansiton wants to talk about Brad Pitt or Angelina Jolie, or that Joe Jonas wants to publicly explain why he broke up with Taylor Swift? I'm sure they don't, but since they chose to be a public figure, lack of privacy comes along with all the perks they receive as well.

GLO said...

Since we are discussing the possibility of teasing, I would like to point out that Kate (?) said in one episode (the cooking class one?) that Mady had a very easy time making friends, while Cara did not.
It seems reasonable to me to think that the one more likely to be teased and bullied would be Cara. Bullies tend to target the ones who are quieter and don't make a fuss, unlike Mady who would more than likely be sure to let the teacher know if she was being picked on.

Nina Bell said...

" Maybe only positive Gosselin assumption are allowed here"

Why would you make this statement? Your comments are being posted. Is everyone here asking for proof or just Guin?

I don't understand why when someone has a disagreement with another person that they have to come on the attack mode.

Nina Bell said...

What is the clear cut proof regarding the college funds? I missed that.

nc resident said...

Nina my post was to say that I felt like mrsref did. She felt that her post was dissected, so did I. Do you feel I attacked someone if so I apologize. But since you brought it up how come my response was viewed as an attack, but to quote you "I understand your frustration. This site is definetely open to debate and Guin does like a good debate. I wonder if she was on the debate team in high school?", was made to mrsref. Can I not debate with Guin?
She takes a pro Gosselin stance I see some things differently. My point was directly only at Guin in the spirit of debate.
The college funds did not exist according to Kate on their old website. Guin stated the website had not been updated that often in recent months, another poster more compute saavy than I showed how often it was updated, back then.

Nina Bell said...

nc resident

I have no problems with you debating with guin, but your comment was directed at this blog as a whole.


" Maybe only positive Gosselin assumption are allowed here"

Nina Bell said...

I should have said, IMO.

But I understand that you are saying it was not and I accept that.

nc resident said...

Nina I can see where you thought that my bad. I am going to say again that I appreciate the ability to post here and the fact alot of childish things seen on other sites are not seen here.

CeeCee said...

A large portion of this seems to have turned into a debate about teasing, particularly of Mady, so I'll add my opinion to the mix.

Children can be very cruel in and out of school and someone as sensitive as Mady makes a prime target. Perhaps Cara can more easily shrug it off (or maybe she actually doesn't and just internalizes it more than Mady does) but there are a lot of children who don't deal well with teasing. Perhaps that's part of Kate's problem as well. We'll never know.

The point is Kate has a child who is very much like her and Mady's meltdowns don't need to be televised for everyone to see (not to mention living forever on DVD).

MrsRef said...

I did not realize that everytime I voiced an opinion that I was becoming part of a debate. I thought it was discussion and did not realize that I would be called upon time and time again to prove my point. They are just my opinions. To me a balanced discussion would include opinions on both sides of the fence. I do not understand the reason every post has to be taken apart and argued sentence by sentence. We all come here with various life experiences that color our opinions. I stated mine. It was an opinion - that's all. I apologize for any turmoil I have caused by trying to join in the discussion. I will step away from the computer now.....

Mom said...

Just adding my two cents to what Nina said -

One thing that I like about this blog is that I can read others' opinions, even those which vary from mine, in an adult manner.

Because of this, I value what the posters here (most of whom stick with their name/handle) say regardless of whether or not I agree with them.

In fact, my opinion on some topics regarding the G family has changed because of some of the regular posters here.

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing on any topic. With that said, it is also really easy to read something completely wrong. I've done it too, LOL!

Guinevere said...

You have to be serioiusly disturbed for bullying to have you whipping out the guns, you know? I think that that was her point- I dont think anyone here doubts that this boy was teased.

Thank you, Samantha, that was my point. I never said the boy wasn't teased; I said I doubted it was teasing alone that drove his actions.

SamanthaNC said...

Guin-

You are quite welcome- I get what you were saying and totally agree.

This post hs certainly led to some ruffled feathers, mine included lol- I'm glad we can all discuss things here openly-

"No Worry Beef Curry!"

Nina Bell said...

I truly give up.

Guinevere said...

mrsref, I have felt as you did but was reluctant to say that. Im my opinion Quinevere does the following, with negative Gosselin posts.

Um, I'm right here. Maybe if you have something to say to me, you could say it to me, instead of talking about me essentially in front of me?

First she asks for proof, or tells you that you are making assumptions. Ignoring the fact that she is making an assumption by defending her comment without proof as well.

I don't assume I know anything about the Gosselins for sure. I will sometimes say that I think a person's interpretation of events is not the most likely one - say, the poster who said that she thought the Gosselins bought their new house to rub it in people's faces (I'm paraphrasing here). That did not seem the most likely interpretation to me, and I said so. It doesn't mean that I KNOW why the Gosselins bought a new house (if they did), but that barring evidence, they probably bought it for the usual reasons that people buy houses. And the usual reasons for buying a house do not include "to spite total strangers."

Yes, I do sometimes ask for proof when statements are made as if they are facts, and they are things that I doubt people would know for a fact. For example, various statements about the Gosselins' financial situation - unless you have access to their bank records, how would you know what their situation was, say, when the sextuplets were born? How do you know how much they inherited from Jon's father when he passed?

I won't apologize for letting those statements go by unchallenged, and I don't think I'm "picking apart", as I'm accused of doing, when I challenge them.

I never have a problem with someone questioning something I've said or asking for clarification. I try not to state opinion as fact. Sometimes things get lost in translation from my brain to my fingers, but I don't get defensive or accuse people of picking on me if they take issue with what I've written.

Maybe only positive Gosselin assumption are allowed here.

If your post got posted, then that's not true, is it?

I will say that when I'm assuming, I'm erring on the side of "innocent until proven guilty", which I think is the exact opposite of the way some anti-Gosselin posters operate. I will admit to giving J&K the benefit of the doubt because 1) I like them and 2) they get enough crap from plenty of other people.

Then when clear cut proof exists she minimizes the evidence by rationalizing the Gosselins actions, or pointing okay, okay but does it matter or is it relevant or just by saying SO.

I may have a different definition of "clear cut proof" than you do. I try not to rationalize. I do think I sometimes try to understand behavior, and in understanding it I might view it differently than some people. For instance, where other people see "greed" I may see "money anxiety". This may seem like rationalization to you, but to me it goes back to giving the benefit of the doubt and not thinking the worst of someone.

I will criticize J&K when I feel it's appropriate - I don't defend them blindly. But even what people consider the worst behavior - say the gum incident or the Toy 'R' Us scene - I feel like I can understand where Kate was coming from. That doesn't mean I endorse the behavior. It just means I'm not ready to join the torch and pitchfork crowd.

On another thread she answered me, joking referred to Kate as a bitch something I never said.

I don't know what you're talking about here.

Her in depth dissection of posts micro analyzes the post and in many case adds or infers more than the original post.

I'm sure I do infer things that aren't intended at times. But sometimes, others aren't clear in what they write. Communication in is a process. I don't think it's fair to put it all on me and claim I'm micro-analyzing. I'm not combing through people's posts trying to "get" them. If some people were better communicators, I think there would be fewer misunderstandings. (And I'm sure I'll get called a bitch for saying so, but I think I've been insulted enough in this thread to have earned the right to be blunt.)

IE Mady was teased by children who watched the show. Thats all I said it was in People Magazine pointed out by another poster, I thought I heard it on a show. That is all I said.

And I agreed with you. I said that I thought that was perhaps the case. I did kind of remember it, but I didn't remember that it was from the People article.

Then we got the there is teasing then there is teasing debate, what?

What what? I don't think I've even been debating with people over that. I simply feel that some people hear "Mady has gotten teased at school" and it becomes "Mady is being tormented daily and will never get over the emotional scars". Most kids tease; most kids get teased. Some kids really get picked on or bullied. We have no idea if Mady falls into the latter category.

The college fund issue is clear cut; they mislead or lied to people regarding that. It does exist, it was set up for the sextuplets and Cara and Mady as well. No answer on that proof.

I don't have an answer. I don't know if they lied. It seems weird to me that they would lie so publicly about something so well-known. I don't see anything I've been told as being proof. I'm not saying I know they didn't lie. I just don't know about it one way or another.

Then we get the going on circles comment which is true. We are going in circles because some have dug their heels in and refuse to admit negative comments regarding J&K are correct, even where given clear cut proof.

Again, different definition of "clear cut proof". But I don't see "the other side" rushing to admit where they are wrong, either. I don't see all the posters who claim that Kate is cold and unloving respond to examples of her being loving and kind. I didn't see your response to my question about how you know that the Gosselins travel first class and stay at high end hotels when they go to speaking engagements.

Saint said...

The first time I posted here (not pro-Gosselin,) I felt attacked (by Nina!) My posts were cut, pasted, bolded, and "picked apart." It doesn't bother me anymore, though, because I think it looks more aggressive than it really is. It's just a "style" of response.

I agree that Mady's meltdowns should be private for her own sake. I was an over-emotional child, and I was labeled (correctly) as one. I feel for Mady. It's not so easy to be teased when you're that kind of kid, and I think she's a target (though, of course, I just think that.)

I have heard people in real life talk about this show and say awful things about Mady b/c of her meltdowns. I couldn't do that to my children. I think they could still have a great show without showing "the ugly." I also think they have toned "the ugly" down quite a bit this season (hooray!)

Saint said...

I have wonderful memories from my childhood. Some are of me with my parents on special vacations. Some are of us doing everyday things. Some are of the "traditions" we still do or haven't bothered with for years. Some are of me and my brothers and sisters without or opposed to Mom and Dad. I also forget a lot of moments, though they were surely not wasted. I think what the Gosselins do to "make memories" is great.

This past vacation was expensive, but I don't think it was gluttonous. I wish I could go to Hawaii and stay at that resort! I want to ask a boat captain to stay out "2 more hours" so I could relax on the boat. Lucky! Remember, the kids weren't shown for the 2 more hours either. So no one was working (except the crew.) How nice for the children!

indianprincess said...

I think we are all passionate with our opinions and that's what they are opinions of how we preceive things in our own life. It doesn't mean we are right or wrong on how we want to discuss something. I try to step back and read someone thoughts when I feel like I'm being attacked(not on this blog) and remember sometimes people will not see eye to eye but that's why we all are unique individuals with different life experiences as with Jon and Kate. We may not like or see some of the things shown about this family but they choose to be on TV. Whatever happens with Mady or any of the other children I truely believe Jon and Kate have their best interests at heart and will do the right thing. Jon and Kate are the parents and it's there business how they want to discipline(sp) there own children. Sometimes it's good to just complain and get it all out!

Nina Bell said...

Saint,

I actually remember the first time you came here, and I felt you came here as a first time poster and immediately attacked Guin. LOL So I was defending her if I remember right (like she needs defending).

So we all do see and take things in a different way. I think that is the important thing to remember here.

I just started bolding my comments last week and I rarely cut, paste and pick apart other people's posts. I might take a statement out and refer to it. That I am guilty of.

NotAPerfectMom said...

I like how you respond to posts by quoting the lines you are referring to, Guinevere. I think that helps keep it clear what you are responding to. Some people don't like to have their words parsed, but I believe that if you put it out there, you should be prepared to defend it.

How much teasing goes on w/Maddy and/or Cara is clearly speculation. Nothing wrong with speculation, of course, since without it there would not be much to say here. But speculation is inherently interpretive and you can't say it is true just because it is your opinion. That is how opinion differs from fact!

My speculation on the college fund thing? They didn't have one; now they do. So what?

Saint said...

Saint, I actually remember the first time you came here, and I felt you came here as a first time poster and immediately attacked Guin. LOL So I was defending her if I remember right (like she needs defending).

I called her "flippant!" :)

Sorry, mods, I didn't know my blog etiquette way back then (<2 months ago?)

I'm glad I stayed, though. My posts haven't been rejected for my Julie-defense or my anti-potty-scene rants.

Bicoastal said...

Great topic for a discussion. I don't watch the show anymore; it's been many months; I decided it was pointless to be annoyed by people I don't know.

I'm like a lot of the posters here; I stared watching about a year and a half ago. The second or third episode I saw was the little ones' birthday party. I couldn't understand what would keep grandparents away from their grandchildren. I don't remember if it was the birthday episode when Kate explained that her parents didn't know how to help them and thus weren't involved in their lives. No matter how you shake it, that's pretty sad for everybody. Maybe the grandparents are jerks or drunks or racists. Who the heck knows?

I thought Kate was funny back then, the way she snarked at the kids. Maddy was complaining about not having a certain sweater and Kate told she would get a loom and "weave" a sweater for her. I said things like that to my two kids when they were small; both are now quite the sarcastic young adults (often at my expense).

I started wondering about Kate and Jon's "story." I can't remember why; maybe it was about the time Jon no longer needed to work. (I don't remember the timing.) Then I found a blog about the show on Television without Pity and discovered links to a small newspaper in the parents' hometown. Seems Kate and Jon wanted the Penn. taxpayers to pay for a nurse (or a nurse's aide) to help Kate with the kids. Her quotes in the paper were pretty arrogant. And the community seemed to have tired of the Gosselin charity project.

Then the expensive trips started on the show. I never cared about the little Dutch-land or pumpkin field stuff; all families do those types of trips. They're cute little day-in-the-life of events with which all families can identify.

Then the modeling head shots for the girls. And the expensive trips. And Jon acting like a tool on the couch, making faces at the interviewer. And Kate insulting him for being a rube while she mangled simple grammar and misspoke on many subjects.

So short answer long --- I watched at first because I liked Kate and thought the kids were cute.

Now? The parents lack of employment -- and their smarmy behavior -- are the main reasons I quit watching.

I appreciate this discussion. Interesting opinions, all. Well, most.

Cheers!

Guinevere said...

I called her "flippant!" :)

Does that have something to do with dolphins? :-)

I like how you respond to posts by quoting the lines you are referring to, Guinevere. I think that helps keep it clear what you are responding to.

Thanks; I appreciate that. I really do do that just to make things clearer, not in any attempt to catch people out with their own words or anything.

Mom said...

Hey Guin the "aldergator!" Cute icon!

Guinevere said...

I couldn't resist. :-)

Alexis loves her alligators. And as she mentions in last Monday's episode, sharks, except that they are "scary...TOO scary." Imagine adorably furrowed brow as she says it.

Uh, I may have watched that scene once or 30 times.

Lizabeth said...

That would be a neat idea for a new post-- what scene(s) from Jon & Kate plus 8 could you watch over and over without getting tired of them?

I love on Aaden's day when they walk into the little ice cream shop (after he is silent through the cow tunnel, etc) and he gets SO excited to see a cow :).

SamanthaNC said...

Lizabeth-
I like that episode too where he was like "I can't see sheep!"

Nina Bell said...

Ok Lizabeth

Your post is up.

Thanks for the idea!

nc resident said...

Um, I'm right here. Maybe if you have something to say to me, you could say it to me, instead of talking about me essentially in front of me?

Actually not being rude or smug I wasn't speaking to you. I was trying to tell mrsref who seemed to feel alone in her complaint that I felt the same way.

On another thread she answered me, joking referred to Kate as a bitch something I never said.

I don't know what you're talking about here.

They even, along with the tv show renovated their old home, Kate was less than pleased even apologizes in her book for the comments she made.

That bitch! The nerve of her, apologizing!

That was the phrase I was referring to; maybe I took it wrong but I felt as though you impied I called her that. Really my point on that was after the work was done she was rude. Mood swings, hormones, OCD, whatever she was rude. Jon even complained regarding the $59,000 1099 he received.

The college fund issue is clear cut; they mislead or lied to people regarding that. It does exist, it was set up for the sextuplets and Cara and Mady as well. No answer on that proof.

I don't have an answer. I don't know if they lied. It seems weird to me that they would lie so publicly about something so well-known. I don't see anything I've been told as being proof. I'm not saying I know they didn't lie. I just don't know about it one way or another.

"1.Contrary to popular belief, none of our kids have been given a college scholarship nor are there any funds set up in any accounts to pay for college!!! That is another area where we are trusting the Lord to provide when that time comes!!!!! Scary, but necessary!!!!! :)"

If you agree this is an accurate statement from the Gosselins, then I will show the PA governor degree setting the TAP accounts up on the sextuplets 1st b-day.

I appeciate your position but my point is many things J&K did early on led to negative opinion of them. Crucify them no justify no as well.

I can get the 25000 speaking fee but I'm afraid you will repond as you did earlier say thats how it works.

cincymom said...

I like this site that it allows debate and multiple opinions. It is not a "Lover of Gosselins only" blog. When I went to GWOP and asked where Serena was, what happened with PM and why didn't they address it and on and osn.... no answers. It really seems to have changed its tone, if you ask me, since Serena left and PM situation.

One thing that has bugged me on ALL the sites: people keep acting like "gotcha!" about the college fund. I think we all know that an account exists. But you have to put something IN that account to make it worthwhile. Just like I have a checking account. However, whether there are sufficient funds to send a child to college deposited in said fund probably will never be answered. Just like I can have a checking account with a $5 balance. Maybe they ARE/ ARE NOT having trouble gathering college money--but that is a whole 'nother debate.

marci said...

nc resident,

Even in the quote from the Gosselins' old website...which has been quoted ad nauseum for months now...it says, "none of our kids have been given college scholarships" and there aren't any FUNDS IN ANY ACCOUNTS (para.).

I highlight that because I think that may be where there is confusion. It is MY assumption that this means:

1) at the time the kids were not given any scholarships, i.e., no money waiting to be spent from the State of PA or a specific college.

2) that even though the Governor of PA had set up accounts FOR MONEY TO BE PLACED IN AS THE KIDS GREW (either by the family or by donations) that DOESN'T MEAN THERE WAS ANY MONEY SITTING IN THOSE ACCOUNTS.

Any parent can go set up an account but that doesn't mean there's any money there.

Nowhere in all the things quoted by the posters who cite this as a reason the Gosselins' have "lied" has there EVER been a mention of there actually being money IN these accounts.

The FACT is no one knows if there was or is money in the accounts the Governor of PA set up, or, if there is money, how much.

Why assume they lied based on some incredibly flimsy evidence based on subjective interpretation of what they wrote on their website? It's SO subjective I'll grant you your argument is every bit as strong as mine. Both of which mean nothing because we can't possibly know the truth of the matter.

I think anti-Gosselin posters (or anyone who blatantly calls them liars whether they consider themselves an "anti" or not) are going to think the Gosselins are liars no matter what at this point.

So many of us who have seen the same "evidence" you do just don't see it as a reason to crucify them and label them liars. Repeating it over and over for months and months hasn't changed my mind, and I doubt yours will be changed. It's old news IMO.

marci said...

cincymom,

It looks like we were thinking the same thing at the same time. :)

Sorry if my last post seems redundant.

Kelley said...

If my opinions or thoughts bother you, please just skip over, OK?


I think you directly contradict people, which bothers me. And you state your comments in a manner that seems like your word is final on the matter. You've done this to me, and to several others and I find it extremely rude. You didn't like what I had to say about the Duggars, and repeatedly rebuked my comment as judgemental. In the "Hawaii" blog post, you've attempted to negate people who say that they have "A Mady" when in their opinion, they do have a Mady.

And in this particular post you contradict anyone who says that the possibility of Mady being teased is not such a bad thing.

From now on, I will indeed "Skip over" your comments.

nc resident said...

Cincimom and Marci I would be more than willing to see your point save for one thing. J&K and the kids were there that day the Governor made his speech. They knew these accounts were set up and they never ONCE say on their website how someone could donate. Why, they have shown in the past, no modesty asking for alot of things. 15 pass. van, pre-school tuition for Cara and Mady, 25,000 to keep the nurse.
Im done on this but really, crucify, please I never said that at all.

marci said...

nc resident,

I have no wish to belabor the point with you, but I think the word "crucify" is how I see it when the Gosselins are repeatedly called out for lying when something they might have said or written in the past may no longer be the case.

And, again, your assumptions that their being mum on the amount of funds in the accounts means there ARE funds are no more "factual" than my assumptions which would say that it doesn't mean anything either way.

As far as the immodest pleas in the past, many anti-Gosselinites would say the very reason for putting the "no college funds" answer in the FAQ portion of their old website was a de facto plea for donations.

I see a lot of posters blurring the lines between the Gosselins "praying" for things (which personally isn't part of my spiritual repetoire) and somehow "scamming" or outright lying.

I can see there may have been a real need when the tups were born for asking for, or even actively working towards, getting financial help. But I don't think there has been much need in the last six months or so (nor much asking), and (JMHO) I don't think they were financially set until this last season.

These are my opinions and I don't begrudge you yours. Honestly, I've never before actually written these views of mine down in a post because I knew most would take it as me trying to change their mind. I've said them now more to put them out there, because I think most people who've been involved in this debate for months now aren't going to change their views on the subject. I'm not.

FIONA said...

I think you directly contradict people, which bothers me. And you state your comments in a manner that seems like your word is final on the matter. You've done this to me, and to several others and I find it extremely rude. You didn't like what I had to say about the Duggars, and repeatedly rebuked my comment as judgemental. In the "Hawaii" blog post, you've attempted to negate people who say that they have "A Mady" when in their opinion, they do have a Mady.

And in this particular post you contradict anyone who says that the possibility of Mady being teased is not such a bad thing.

From now on, I will indeed "Skip over" your comments.

November 14, 2008 10:05 PM

---

I don't set out to find a post that I disagree with, but I do comment if I feel like doing so.

It seems you are sensitive about someone disagreeing with you or giving their opinion. I think you are probably still offended (your words) that I said I could not IMAGINE a 3 year old understanding being saved at such a young age. I did not say you were lying, I said I could not imagine it.

I give my opinions about Mady just as others do, and I do not think I have been rude at all.

My opinions are strong just as others are and while I don't agree with what some other posters say, I have not called anyone out about them, or asked about a "transformation".

Maybe you are just more sensitive to disagreement.

Yes, you are right, the Duggar comment was insensitive and judgemental, but it did not seem to bother you at the time.

And, yea I do stand my my opinion that know has a Mady Gosselin, with her issues.

Maybe you shouldn't take things so personally-just a suggestion.

ilovehaters said...

These kids are the BEST. The parents on the other hand need to learn a thing or two. I started to watch this show with my neices and nephews while baby-sitting them one night. They love watching the kids, but are glad that Kate is not their mother. From a man's point of view, I don't see why Jon puts up with her. He must not think that much of himself to let her constantly yell at him and put him down about his grammar. Screaming at him in public and on cable television is not something nice to do to your spouse.

dotsicle said...

ilovehaters, I agree with what you said about the yelling and demeaning. I'm a mom and grandma, and in all my long life I have only known ONE woman who disrespected her husband as Kate does Jon. What bothers me is hearing other mothers defend her slapping and berating her husband. Perhaps that is the way some modern marriages are, but there isn't any behavior like that in my family. I don't think it's a good example for the kids. Maybe they wouldn't scream and hit as much if they didn't see Kate do it.

Weed said...

I get so tired of hearing that the G’s lied about finances. No one except J&K knows what they have, when they got it and who pays for what. Why do people care?? So what – it doesn’t affect me or my family and I seriously doubt that it affects yours or the national economy. The people that do choose to give to them – it’s their business, so what if people still continue to donate. I’m sure people aren’t taking food from their own family to give to the G’s, so if they have it to give – it’s their business. My only concern with the show is that I honestly think it is hurting the children – when the show stops and it will (maybe not soon enough for some) what is going to happen to the children. They grew up with those cameras and crew – and they will be treated differently. No more closing down parks and shops for the G’s – and that’s going to be a tough pill to swallow for all of them. I’ve said it before – the show needs to stop for the kids. No - we don’t see everything that happens but we do see enough to know that those kids are sheltered and it really appears that they have no one else in their lives except the camera crew. I don’t care about the freebies, or little white lies about their finances ‘cause it ain’t our business. I just adore those children and want what’s best for them and I honestly don’t think it’s this show. I hope it has given them a sound financial future but I don’t think J&K get the big picture – they’re children’s emotional well being is in a precarious position and no amount of money can fix that.

I’m sorry if I went a little over the top but the comments about them being liars and all the remarks about their finances really just put my panties in a bunch and it’s just too early in the morning for that.

I do have one question – why in the world would they renew their vows now instead of waiting until next year on their 10th anniversary? Just seemed like they wanted to get to Hawaii and that was their only way?? Don’t get me wrong, I’ve enjoyed the footage and tonight’s episode looks to be amazing, I just thought it odd to do a renewal now instead of waiting until next summer. JMO though.